Anyone Else Have Problems With Intense LED's and Organic Super Soil?

kratos015 · Dec 10, 2020

athlete said:
VPD and LED appears to be critical...

LED and Calmag issues.

So, there's been some correlation between using LED lights and calmag issues, particularly a lack of calcium and sometimes magnesium. I've been doing some testing with tomato plants under an LED. I was finally able to replicate the issue. Now, what I have found is that it's not really a Calmag...

www.rollitup.org

Only had enough time for a quick glance unfortunately, but one thing stuck out to me immediately:

So, there's been some correlation between using LED lights and calmag issues, particularly a lack of calcium and sometimes magnesium.

However, in my testing, it appears that it's not a lack of calmag from the LED, but an excess of K.

I don't know if it deals with spectrum or par or whatever, but I would like some input from anyone who can possibly explain this, if it can be explained.

Has nothing to do with the lights, nor VPD, or anything else but the excess K.

K, Mg, and Ca are all intertwined with one another. Too much of one will lock out the other two, every time.

Very rarely is a Magnesium deficiency ever more than just lockout, excess Potassium and Calcium in a soil is more common than you'd think. Even worse, depending on the source of Ca in the soil you can also experience pH that is too alkaline causing even more issues with lockout.

kratos015 · Dec 10, 2020

Yea, that's what I gathered as well.

Basically, my running theory is that LEDs increase the potency or uptake of K in the plant, reducing overall Ca values taken in.

I don't have the room to set up a proper testing ground at the moment, but I would like to evaluate this further.

COBS/DE lights have over double the light spectrum of a SE bulb. As a result, there will be more photosynthesis happening. K+Mg play a vital role in photosynthesis, hence the plants using more K+Mg.

The issue I'm seeing, is how can one have extra uptake of K in a plant while also simultaneously seeing Mg deficiencies? Doesn't seem logical to me.

However, upon reading the thread I noticed many people mentioning different ways to add Ca to the soil in the forms of Calcium Carbonate. It seems most likely to me that this is what their issues were.

Dumping more nutrients in one's soil to correct a lockout is a recipe for disaster, to put it lightly. They aren't solving the lockout issue because they're treating it as a deficiency and not lockout.

Even worse, they're adding Calcium Carbonate to soils that are already likely limed with something in the first place. As I mentioned above, Ca, Mg, and K are intertwined with one another. When one is in excess, the other two are locked out.

So if these people are experiencing a lockout due to pH, and solve the issue by dumping more Calcium into the mix, now Mg and K are 100% being locked out. If the pH wasn't locking out their K+Mg before, the excess Calcium surely will.

MustangStudFarm · Dec 10, 2020

kratos015 said:
COBS/DE lights have over double the light spectrum of a SE bulb. As a result, there will be more photosynthesis happening. K+Mg play a vital role in photosynthesis, hence the plants using more K+Mg.

The issue I'm seeing, is how can one have extra uptake of K in a plant while also simultaneously seeing Mg deficiencies? Doesn't seem logical to me.

However, upon reading the thread I noticed many people mentioning different ways to add Ca to the soil in the forms of Calcium Carbonate. It seems most likely to me that this is what their issues were.

Dumping more nutrients in one's soil to correct a lockout is a recipe for disaster, to put it lightly. They aren't solving the lockout issue because they're treating it as a deficiency and not lockout.

Even worse, they're adding Calcium Carbonate to soils that are already likely limed with something in the first place. As I mentioned above, Ca, Mg, and K are intertwined with one another. When one is in excess, the other two are locked out.

So if these people are experiencing a lockout due to pH, and solve the issue by dumping more Calcium into the mix, now Mg and K are 100% being locked out. If the pH wasn't locking out their K+Mg before, the excess Calcium surely will.

This is a helpful chart for antagonisms and synergism. I remember Mulder's chart as in Fox Mulder because this shit is a F'ing mystery to a lot of people on here. It just helps me remember Mulder...

MustangStudFarm · Dec 10, 2020

kratos015 said:
COBS/DE lights have over double the light spectrum of a SE bulb. As a result, there will be more photosynthesis happening. K+Mg play a vital role in photosynthesis, hence the plants using more K+Mg.

I started following Tad Hussey of Kis Organics and he kept saying that cannabis needs 2x the K compared to regular food crops. He said that soil tests need to be 2x the amount in K. He also had a podcast with Dr. Steve Solomon about soil remineralization and said that cannabis is a manganese sensitive crop and that it's hard to find natural sources of Mn and Zn.

kratos015 said:
Ca, Mg, and K are intertwined with one another. When one is in excess, the other two are locked out.

Right, this is the "base saturation ratio". It took me forever to figure this out, but they mean base and acids...

MustangStudFarm · Dec 10, 2020

Blazin Budz said:
I just posted most of this as a reply in another thread but now I actually want to see if anyone else has had similar results. At the start of the year I Built a new grow room and decided to go with 6 new HLG 320 QB XL LED's for my flower room. I also decided to go with organics/water only super soils (tried a lot of them including my own super hot mix). This past year of growing has been a nightmare for me in terms of loss of money and time plus the stress of my efforts not paying off.

The learning curve for LED's turned out to be more drastic than I was thinking. I cant, for the life of me, get an organic super soil dialed in with these intense LED's. The LED's make the plants eat the nutrients waaaayyyy before the plants are finished flowering. I've tried so many different Super Soils including mainstream ones like Build-A-Soil 3.0 and I cant seem to get through a full cycle with water only. Even with extra amended organic forms of cal-mag.

It'll get to where ill have to start adding synthetic Cal-Mag to actually see results then they'll start showing deficiencies again to the point to where ill have to start adding salt based nutes (megacrop) with extra cal-mag to fix my issues and by that time im hand watering because I don't have a specific plan as what to fill my res with (was using blumats). It just got to the point where I was forcing the plants to grow and trying my hardest just to keep them somewhat healthy. I like my plants to absolutely thrive. Also my yields are ridiculously low compared to what they should be. I feel like the only way I could make it work is to have a huge no till bed or at least use 10 gallon containers at a minimum and thats just too much space for the amount of plants im running at that point.

I could go on and on about the huge amount of money i've wasted this past year trying to unsuccessfully get an Organic Super Soil dialed in but bottom line is it just became too much of a pain in the ass to manage. With coco and salt based nutes, I can dial everything in pretty easily and run the amount of plants I want in the space I have.

I'll never hate on the quality or the taste of the herb with Organics. I think its a great way to grow for a lot of people but for me and my situation, it was just too much of a headache and loss of money to run organics with LED's. I've started my first coco run while im finishing out my organic soil plants and the glow my coco plants are putting off brings me sooo much relief.

So my question is, does anyone else run top brand intense LED's with a water only super soil and have great results?

I always have problems with micronutrients rather than N-P-K or Mg/Ca. I always get the early yellowing and it's hard to tell if it's iron chlorosis or manganese def. It looks like you are using bone meal and rock phosphate, so I'm going to assume that you are exp iron chlorosis.

MustangStudFarm · Dec 10, 2020

I would talk about soil testing but a certain member(Northwood) on here would follow me around and bomb my posts for trying to help people. If I was completely stumped on what my soil is doing, I would get a soil test. I wouldn't get a Mehlich 3 test either, worthless...

athlete · Dec 10, 2020

Samere

kratos015 said:
Only had enough time for a quick glance unfortunately, but one thing stuck out to me immediately:

Please read more... page 3 IIRC is about VPD

NewGrower2011 · Dec 10, 2020

@kratos015 Gotcha. That was part of what I suspected, I was looking around for the NPK of Karanja to compare to see if that was the case.

DankTankerous · Dec 10, 2020

I have been here in many different ways, it’s definitely a headache. I was using Fox Farms Ocean Forest and added more perlite, EWC, and other amendments and was growing in a 5 gallon fabric pot. Complete disaster. Eventually I switched over to Coot’s Mix and my plants are doing exceptionally well. I am also growing under an LED light as well- HLG 288 V2 QB. The mix is incredible, aeration is excellent, the roots just tear through the soil. Also it does not take a year for fresh Worm-castings, it takes at least 10 weeks and you don’t have to feed it like your mixed-soil. That’s what soil mixing and top dressing is for. Just make sure your castings are fresh and full of life, they’ll do the rest
Organics has been tough and so has knowing when to water, but it’s been pretty damn fun and an amazing teacher. Hang in there we’ll figure it out

best,

Dt

MustangStudFarm · Dec 10, 2020

DankTankerous said:
Also it does not take a year for fresh Worm-castings, it takes at least 10 weeks and you don’t have to feed it like your mixed-soil.

That's what I did! I used this produce, peat moss, and rock dust to make my bins. I waited about 12 weeks, but I also didn't have any leaf or grass clippings, just produce and peat. Really, this was some of the best soil that I have ever made. This pic was Pre-Covid, like the month before in March. My resources have dried up. I wanted to use compost from the city compost facility, but it ran dry too. It was impossible to find any growing resources for a while.

I have a bad back, so I made raised beds. I have a couple more bins on the ground made out of plastic pallets.

kratos015 · Dec 10, 2020

athlete said:
Samere

Please read more... page 3 IIRC is about VPD

Left the house shortly after starting page 3, figures the post would be right underneath where I stopped lol

"With more water the plants also take up more nutes, especially calcium. And these high amounts of calcium looks out other metals like Mg, Fe, P and K. So yes, its because of calcium but because of too much nlt too little."

What's confusing me though, if his proposal is that the plants drinking excess water due to lack of humidity is resulting in excess nutrients being delivered to the plant then how can that possibly cause a lock-out of nutrients? Lock out is something going on in your soil, not the plant.

So if plants are intaking excess amounts of Calcium, this would result in a toxicity with the plant itself and not lock out no?

I need to keep reading more to see if my question is answered, but for now I'm confused as to how a plant somehow intaking too much Calcium will lock out other nutrients as lock out happens in the soil and not the plant itself.

Unless perhaps the excess drinking causes drastic fluctuations of pH?

NewGrower2011 said:
@kratos015 Gotcha. That was part of what I suspected, I was looking around for the NPK of Karanja to compare to see if that was the case.

Karanja has zero NPK so it can be used freely at any stage of a plant's life.

DankTankerous said:
Also it does not take a year for fresh Worm-castings, it takes at least 10 weeks and you don’t have to feed it like your mixed-soil. That’s what soil mixing and top dressing is for. Just make sure your castings are fresh and full of life, they’ll do the rest
Organics has been tough and so has knowing when to water, but it’s been pretty damn fun and an amazing teacher. Hang in there we’ll figure it out

best,

Dt

You're right if you're only going for basic worm castings. However, in the thread I linked earlier Coots talks about how he eventually moved on to top dressing with nothing but pure EWC.

He's able to do so because he puts all of the amendments that one would normally mix into the soil into his worm bin. The result is EWC of the highest quality, with nutritional value to boot.

It doesn't take much to get EWC that are full of life, that is very true. However, if you want EWC that is full of life and nutrition one will get some amazing results by dumping the BAS blend + OSF into a worm bin instead of the soil. Then you can use nothing but EWC in your soil and for a top dress

ComfortCreator · Dec 11, 2020

I would like to emphasize that Kratos' point about Ca, Mg and K is spot on AFAIK.

We all can see how needed calcium is when growing, the dreaded cal def shows clearly and moves fast and doesnt resolve wirhout damage. We avoid it using 1 or more amendments. And in doing so have no exact measure of how it relates to K and Mg in the overall mix.

So, for example, I will water with a small amount of Mg in every watering. As I reach midflower i add K as Kelp meal because I have seen, and can begin to see, a slight def of K showing.

And yet, it really is just me balancing those 3 elements as their needs change. So the point kratos makes imo is correct.

Im sure my mix could be better, but its easily "in range" and can be gently modified on the fly as I am doing.

The point about adding more Ca is spot on...i think excess Ca, and or excess K are likely many people's issue.

I have not yet figured out how to add more Mg to my mix to the point it doesnt appear to need it in waterings. That could be my lack of knowledge, or simply a limitation where growing cant always be perfect without adding anything.

VPD i certainly believe if I had a giant room and unlimited space and energy available i could run 60%+ throughout flower. I have no doubt they would stay healthier...until they rotted out. Maybe if i didnt manipulate the plant with training I could make it work, but who has the space and room around each plant to insure that running a 60%+ RH wont be a problem?

DankTankerous · Dec 11, 2020

I’m going to point out the silver lining here. Although it’s given you a massive headache @Blazin Budz we’re all learning a LOT from this. I have definitely been there and it fucking sucks. But this is a great thread. Keep on sharing folks

kratos015 · Dec 11, 2020

MustangStudFarm said:
That's what I did! I used this produce, peat moss, and rock dust to make my bins. I waited about 12 weeks, but I also didn't have any leaf or grass clippings, just produce and peat. Really, this was some of the best soil that I have ever made. This pic was Pre-Covid, like the month before in March. My resources have dried up. I wanted to use compost from the city compost facility, but it ran dry too. It was impossible to find any growing resources for a while.

I have a bad back, so I made raised beds. I have a couple more bins on the ground made out of plastic pallets.

Still having difficulty finding produce scraps even with Covid now? I'm in a fairly small town, so not many people asking my local grocers for their produce scraps. Must have good ambient outdoor temps to have worm beds outdoors like that? Photos are like a wet dream for me. I'm in Arizona, extreme heat and extreme cold. I had a solid worm farm going just fine until summer hit, then all of my worms died. Thousands of them, I couldn't keep them cool enough. Felt like such a piece of shit I decided against a worm farm until I'm able to deal with the weather extremities of my state and not kill the poor things. This was a few years ago and I still feel shitty about the genocide I put those poor things through.

DankTankerous said:
I’m going to point out the silver lining here. Although it’s given you a massive headache @Blazin Budz we’re all learning a LOT from this. I have definitely been there and it fucking sucks. But this is a great thread. Keep on sharing folks

Huge silver lining in fact. I can only speak for myself, but when I first started off with organics I was beyond overwhelmed with information. Like many people, I started with Subcool's Supersoil. The results were so impressive I never went back to synthetics. Eventually I started delving more into organics, soil recipes specifically. Tons of soil recipes out there, but you'll notice that out of all these organic soils not many of them emphasize the life within the soil itself.

The word "organic" is so ubiquitous, and one must be cautious when the word "organic" appears. As I've said before, one can shit in a bucket and call it organic and it would technically be correct.

This is why I say "living soil" as opposed to "organic soil", because "organic soil" can be so many different things whereas "living soil" can only be just that; soil full of life.

So, with that in mind, the question becomes "how can I cultivate a soil with life?" as opposed to "how can I build an organic soil?".

RIU isn't quite as active as it used to be back when I first started posting, but there's always been people willing to spread their knowledge in threads just like this much to your point @DankTankerous. People don't just post random threads filled with information, as they tend to be buried. But sometimes, someone just starting out asks a question and a ton of people on here come to offer their input willing to help.

Everyone started out new, and I have two very strong opinions concerning people that are new to something. 1) The sooner you can condense years worth of experience into months for someone else, the sooner they can teach you something. 2) It takes a very sad, self-centered, and self-conscious person to belittle someone asking questions and trying to learn.

Where there is humility, there is understanding.

kratos015 · Dec 11, 2020

ComfortCreator said:
I would like to emphasize that Kratos' point about Ca, Mg and K is spot on AFAIK.

We all can see how needed calcium is when growing, the dreaded cal def shows clearly and moves fast and doesnt resolve wirhout damage. We avoid it using 1 or more amendments. And in doing so have no exact measure of how it relates to K and Mg in the overall mix.

So, for example, I will water with a small amount of Mg in every watering. As I reach midflower i add K as Kelp meal because I have seen, and can begin to see, a slight def of K showing.

And yet, it really is just me balancing those 3 elements as their needs change. So the point kratos makes imo is correct.

Im sure my mix could be better, but its easily "in range" and can be gently modified on the fly as I am doing.

The point about adding more Ca is spot on...i think excess Ca, and or excess K are likely many people's issue.

I have not yet figured out how to add more Mg to my mix to the point it doesnt appear to need it in waterings. That could be my lack of knowledge, or simply a limitation where growing cant always be perfect without adding anything.

VPD i certainly believe if I had a giant room and unlimited space and energy available i could run 60%+ throughout flower. I have no doubt they would stay healthier...until they rotted out. Maybe if i didnt manipulate the plant with training I could make it work, but who has the space and room around each plant to insure that running a 60%+ RH wont be a problem?

The biggest issue with high RH% is, of course mold/mildew. However, mold and mildew are spores. So, if one has a sufficient amount of air circulation then spores cannot even land on your plants let alone become an issue. If you sanitize the ever loving fuck out of your grow after each harvest and you have proper air circulation, you will never see mold/mildew issues. How can you see mold/mildew if there are no spores present? And, if by some chance there are spores present, how can they cause issues if they can't even land on canopy?

Take drying and curing for instance. Low and slow, just like aging a steak. Compare drying/curing weed to aging a steak. You can't age beef in a week, it takes 4-6 weeks. How do they prevent bad mold from infecting the beef? Air circulation. Weed is the same. Most people dry their weed in 4-7 days (give or take), then throw into jars and don't burp them enough, then wonder why their product tastes like grass. However, if you have proper airflow you can dry in 40-50% humidity for 10-14 days before putting them into jars. Again, low and slow.

As for the Mg issue.

The biggest reason for the lack of Mg is the result of one of (or a combination of) the following 3 things: 1) pH lockout or 2) the fallacy of the Calcium:Magnesium ratio or 3) insufficient mineral/organic material in one's soil.

Some excerpts from a few articles for everyone's reference.

The question of balance between soil magnesium and calcium levels seems to revive among farmers every few years. On soils where lime is recommended, and the lowest cost source is high-magnesium dolomitic lime, some farmers are especially sensitive to the relatively high soil magnesium level and low calcium-to-magnesium (Ca:Mg) ratio they observe on soil test lab reports for fields where lime has been applied repeatedly. However, the actual levels of plant-available magnesium and calcium are much more important to crop performance than the Ca:Mg ratio.

Calcium and magnesium, like potassium (K), are positively charged ions (cations) held to the surface of clay and organic matter in the soil by electrostatic charge. These cations are exchangeable because they exchange with cations in the soil solution. Because calcium and magnesium are only available to plants in the exchangeable form, soil tests measure only exchangeable calcium and magnesium. Plants take up almost all calcium and magnesium though mass flow rather than by root interception. With root interception, the exchange of calcium and magnesium takes place when the root grows in close proximity to clay and organic matter particles holding cations. With mass flow, calcium and magnesium on the exchange sites exchange with other cations in the soil solution. As plants transpire water, the soil solution moves the calcium and magnesium to the roots. Considerably more calcium and magnesium moves to roots by mass flow than plants actually take up.

The pure ratio concept is very misleading. A Ca:Mg ratio of 5:1 is a statement of relative proportions of available calcium to magnesium. Two soils, one with 100 and 20 parts per million (ppm) of available calcium and magnesium and the other with 300 and 60 ppm available calcium and magnesium respectively, both have the same 5:1 ratio. However, the first soil would be marginally low to deficient while the second soil would have adequate amounts of both calcium and magnesium.

Calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg) are secondary nutrients, but they are secondary only in the probability of deficiencies, and plants require them in quantities similar to phosphorus (P)

Soil calcium:magnesium ratios | Integrated Crop Management

All soils contain calcium ions (Ca2+) and magnesium (Mg2+) cations (positively charged ions) attracted to the negative exchange sites on clays and organic matter (cation exchange complex of the soil). The amount and relative proportion usually reflect the soil's parent materials. Calcium (Ca)...

crops.extension.iastate.edu

Soil calcium-to-magnesium ratios should not concern most farmers

If soil calcium and magnesium levels are adequate and soil pH is acceptable, variations in the calcium-to-magnesium ratio between 2 and 8 have been shown to have no influence on crop yield.

www.canr.msu.edu

http://corn.agronomy.wisc.edu/Management/pdfs/a2986.pdf

https://www.agvise.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Nebraska-Cation-Ratios.pdf

And here's some excerpts from an article about the relationship between Calcium & Magnesium in humans, which while not the exact same as plants is still worth mentioning seeing as both are living beings.

Typically, less than half of calcium intake is absorbed in the gut(2), the rest either being excreted or potentially forming kidney stones or being transported to soft tissues where it can harden (calcify). Adequate levels of magnesium are essential for the absorption and metabolism of calcium and vitamin D. Magnesium converts vitamin D into its active form so that it can aid calcium absorption.

Time to ditch the 2:1 calcium-magnesium ratio

www.newhope.com

So, in summation; CalMag deficiencies are the result of one of (or a combination of) the three things I mentioned earlier in this pots: 1) pH lockout, 2) adherring to the myth of the Calcium:Magnesium ratio and/or 3) insufficient mineral/organic matter in one's soil.

IMO, point #3 is the biggest issue as it leads into points 1 & 2. Insufficient minerals and/or organic matter in one's soil will lead to a pH lockout of some sort, either due to a lack of a pH buffer and/or a weak to non-existent CEC resulting in these nutrients being unable to mobilize as they should.

I rarely see these issues, and I believe it mostly has to do with the foliar spray I feed weekly. Epsom salts (Magnesium Sulfate) and ProTekt (Potassium Silicate), 2-3 times a week. Dolomite lime typically adheres to a 5:1 Calcium:magnesium ratio, and as most of us have experienced, a Mg deficiency tends to follow suit. The solution isn't in adding CalMag or more Dolomite Lime, but ensuring there is enough Mg in your soil or providing Mg to your plants directly in the form of a foliar feed.

Next year, when I move into my new place I will be conducting a grow journal experiment with Langbeinite (0-0-22). Langbeinite, for those that don't know, is Sulfur+Magnesium+Potassium. Loads of Potassium, as you can tell from the NPK I listed. However, my theory is that by providing sufficient enough Ca (OSF, Gypsum, Crab Meal, etc) and Mg (epsom salts) to work with the Langbeinite that the K, Mg, Ca will all be sufficient enough. Langbeinite is water soluble, but its powerful shit as the NPK implies. So, my thinking is to try a small amount of Langbeinite and combine it with my Calcified water and Epsom Salts. However, I've found no research to confirm this as fact and I'm unable to conduct this experiment myself at the moment.

Northwood · Dec 11, 2020

@kratos015, I've never used calmag even when creating my soil 7 grow cycles ago in my no-till. I'm guessing it hasn't hurt anything though.

DankTankerous · Dec 13, 2020

kratos015 said:
The biggest issue with high RH% is, of course mold/mildew. However, mold and mildew are spores. So, if one has a sufficient amount of air circulation then spores cannot even land on your plants let alone become an issue. If you sanitize the ever loving fuck out of your grow after each harvest and you have proper air circulation, you will never see mold/mildew issues. How can you see mold/mildew if there are no spores present? And, if by some chance there are spores present, how can they cause issues if they can't even land on canopy?

Take drying and curing for instance. Low and slow, just like aging a steak. Compare drying/curing weed to aging a steak. You can't age beef in a week, it takes 4-6 weeks. How do they prevent bad mold from infecting the beef? Air circulation. Weed is the same. Most people dry their weed in 4-7 days (give or take), then throw into jars and don't burp them enough, then wonder why their product tastes like grass. However, if you have proper airflow you can dry in 40-50% humidity for 10-14 days before putting them into jars. Again, low and slow.

As for the Mg issue.

The biggest reason for the lack of Mg is the result of one of (or a combination of) the following 3 things: 1) pH lockout or 2) the fallacy of the Calcium:Magnesium ratio or 3) insufficient mineral/organic material in one's soil.

Some excerpts from a few articles for everyone's reference.

Soil calcium:magnesium ratios | Integrated Crop Management

All soils contain calcium ions (Ca2+) and magnesium (Mg2+) cations (positively charged ions) attracted to the negative exchange sites on clays and organic matter (cation exchange complex of the soil). The amount and relative proportion usually reflect the soil's parent materials. Calcium (Ca)...

crops.extension.iastate.edu

Soil calcium-to-magnesium ratios should not concern most farmers

If soil calcium and magnesium levels are adequate and soil pH is acceptable, variations in the calcium-to-magnesium ratio between 2 and 8 have been shown to have no influence on crop yield.

www.canr.msu.edu

http://corn.agronomy.wisc.edu/Management/pdfs/a2986.pdf

https://www.agvise.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Nebraska-Cation-Ratios.pdf

And here's some excerpts from an article about the relationship between Calcium & Magnesium in humans, which while not the exact same as plants is still worth mentioning seeing as both are living beings.

Time to ditch the 2:1 calcium-magnesium ratio

Time to ditch the 2:1 calcium-magnesium ratio

www.newhope.com

So, in summation; CalMag deficiencies are the result of one of (or a combination of) the three things I mentioned earlier in this pots: 1) pH lockout, 2) adherring to the myth of the Calcium:Magnesium ratio and/or 3) insufficient mineral/organic matter in one's soil.

IMO, point #3 is the biggest issue as it leads into points 1 & 2. Insufficient minerals and/or organic matter in one's soil will lead to a pH lockout of some sort, either due to a lack of a pH buffer and/or a weak to non-existent CEC resulting in these nutrients being unable to mobilize as they should.

I rarely see these issues, and I believe it mostly has to do with the foliar spray I feed weekly. Epsom salts (Magnesium Sulfate) and ProTekt (Potassium Silicate), 2-3 times a week. Dolomite lime typically adheres to a 5:1 Calcium:magnesium ratio, and as most of us have experienced, a Mg deficiency tends to follow suit. The solution isn't in adding CalMag or more Dolomite Lime, but ensuring there is enough Mg in your soil or providing Mg to your plants directly in the form of a foliar feed.

Next year, when I move into my new place I will be conducting a grow journal experiment with Langbeinite (0-0-22). Langbeinite, for those that don't know, is Sulfur+Magnesium+Potassium. Loads of Potassium, as you can tell from the NPK I listed. However, my theory is that by providing sufficient enough Ca (OSF, Gypsum, Crab Meal, etc) and Mg (epsom salts) to work with the Langbeinite that the K, Mg, Ca will all be sufficient enough. Langbeinite is water soluble, but its powerful shit as the NPK implies. So, my thinking is to try a small amount of Langbeinite and combine it with my Calcified water and Epsom Salts. However, I've found no research to confirm this as fact and I'm unable to conduct this experiment myself at the moment.

have you ever thought of keeping your worm bin inside your house? I have a 20 gal tote and it looks like I’ll be needing an extra one, because of the worm population. Some people collect worm Leachate but I was taught that’s not a good thing to have that much moisture. I say that to say my tote is self contained and the only mess it makes is a couple spots on the floor from castings falling out.

so you foliar feed with Epsom salt even though your soil has magnesium? (I’m not gonna lie I read through all of that and really didn’t understand it. I’ll get there one day.) I have considered foliar spraying with Epsom Salt but figured it was overkill. I am curious about your success with it though

kratos015 · Dec 14, 2020

Northwood said:
@kratos015, I've never used calmag even when creating my soil 7 grow cycles ago in my no-till. I'm guessing it hasn't hurt anything though.

Same. Had 25g no-till pots that I started plants in, then gave to the Mrs. for veggies. Lasted years, never used a bottle of CalMag either.

DankTankerous said:
have you ever thought of keeping your worm bin inside your house? I have a 20 gal tote and it looks like I’ll be needing an extra one, because of the worm population. Some people collect worm Leachate but I was taught that’s not a good thing to have that much moisture. I say that to say my tote is self contained and the only mess it makes is a couple spots on the floor from castings falling out.

so you foliar feed with Epsom salt even though your soil has magnesium? (I’m not gonna lie I read through all of that and really didn’t understand it. I’ll get there one day.) I have considered foliar spraying with Epsom Salt but figured it was overkill. I am curious about your success with it though

I do, both Mag and Sulfur play a large role in terms of the production terpenes (as well as Potassium). I spray with 1/4-1/2tsp Epsom Salts and ProTekt 2-3 times a week for this exact reason. So, to answer your question yes I do foliar with Epsom Salts. But not typically to cure Mg deficiencies, but for the benefits it has on the flavor of anything growing in your soil.

Consider the "Terpinator" product people use; it's pretty much just potassium sulfate.

Similar to protein in our bodies. We can do just fine with the minimum daily recommended values of protein, but with proper exercise our bodies will certainly make use of extra.

I've told numerous people to do a side by side test with and without Epsom Salt+ProTekt foliar feed and the difference is quite noticeable, not just for me. The weed is one thing, but a tomato or cucumber actually tasting like how lotion or some shit smells is nuts. So much flavor, and the smell of a freshly cut cucumber is nuts. Granted, my sole mineral input in my soil is also Basalt which is a sulfuric rock. I started running Basalt as the full 4c/cuft for my mineral amendment when Coot's said he did the same, he chose to eliminate Gypsum and GRD entirely.

Excluding a pH lockout, Sulfur deficiency is quite rare. However, I've never noticed once ill effects from foliar feeding with Epsom salts at the frequency that I do despite the fact that I use both Basalt and TM7. Hell, even ignoring the Epsom Salts, running Basalt as my sole mineral input has shown a difference in flavor/taste.

As for the worm bin being inside my house, it was sadly. They were kicking ass until summer got so brutal my swamp cooler couldn't even keep up. Hottest day of that year where I live was 133, I shit you not. Entire month was 110F+ weather. Only my bedroom, grow room and office had window units in them. Wasn't enough room for the worm bin in any of those rooms, and I naively believed the swamp cooler would be good enough for the worms. Humans are different. 90-95F feels pretty cool when compared to 110+, sadly the worms disagreed.

I still feel bad about it, thousands upon thousands of poor worms died. Can't change what happened, but I can change what happens the next time around. I won't be running a worm bin until I'm able to buy my own place in another few months. The plan is to build (or better yet, buy a place that already has a large shed/garage) a room for my hash factory. Can't make hash properly in 80F+ weather. A room that is good enough to house a hash making facility will be plenty good enough for a large 4x16ft flow through worm bin. Until I have the space and means to treat the worms properly, I'll be sticking to the compost at my local Ace Hardware.

myke · Dec 14, 2020

kratos015 said:
Same. Had 25g no-till pots that I started plants in, then gave to the Mrs. for veggies. Lasted years, never used a bottle of CalMag either.

I do, both Mag and Sulfur play a large role in terms of the production terpenes (as well as Potassium). I spray with 1/4-1/2tsp Epsom Salts and ProTekt 2-3 times a week for this exact reason. So, to answer your question yes I do foliar with Epsom Salts. But not typically to cure Mg deficiencies, but for the benefits it has on the flavor of anything growing in your soil.

Consider the "Terpinator" product people use; it's pretty much just potassium sulfate.

Similar to protein in our bodies. We can do just fine with the minimum daily recommended values of protein, but with proper exercise our bodies will certainly make use of extra.

I've told numerous people to do a side by side test with and without Epsom Salt+ProTekt foliar feed and the difference is quite noticeable, not just for me. The weed is one thing, but a tomato or cucumber actually tasting like how lotion or some shit smells is nuts. So much flavor, and the smell of a freshly cut cucumber is nuts. Granted, my sole mineral input in my soil is also Basalt which is a sulfuric rock. I started running Basalt as the full 4c/cuft for my mineral amendment when Coot's said he did the same, he chose to eliminate Gypsum and GRD entirely.

Excluding a pH lockout, Sulfur deficiency is quite rare. However, I've never noticed once ill effects from foliar feeding with Epsom salts at the frequency that I do despite the fact that I use both Basalt and TM7. Hell, even ignoring the Epsom Salts, running Basalt as my sole mineral input has shown a difference in flavor/taste.

As for the worm bin being inside my house, it was sadly. They were kicking ass until summer got so brutal my swamp cooler couldn't even keep up. Hottest day of that year where I live was 133, I shit you not. Entire month was 110F+ weather. Only my bedroom, grow room and office had window units in them. Wasn't enough room for the worm bin in any of those rooms, and I naively believed the swamp cooler would be good enough for the worms. Humans are different. 90-95F feels pretty cool when compared to 110+, sadly the worms disagreed.

I still feel bad about it, thousands upon thousands of poor worms died. Can't change what happened, but I can change what happens the next time around. I won't be running a worm bin until I'm able to buy my own place in another few months. The plan is to build (or better yet, buy a place that already has a large shed/garage) a room for my hash factory. Can't make hash properly in 80F+ weather. A room that is good enough to house a hash making facility will be plenty good enough for a large 4x16ft flow through worm bin. Until I have the space and means to treat the worms properly, I'll be sticking to the compost at my local Ace Hardware.

Protekt is that not the same as armour si? What part of the light cycle do you foiler?

kratos015 · Dec 14, 2020

myke said:
Protekt is that not the same as armour si? What part of the light cycle do you foiler?

Correct, both are simply Potassium Silicate. I foliar from start until the last week of flower.

Anyone Else Have Problems With Intense LED's and Organic Super Soil?

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