All Natural Organics. The Dons' Summaries + FAQ Thread. <2017-'18>

[Avant_Gardener]

Lightest, smoothest, most potent bud ever though.. and not necessary to go that long. But what a treat when you do..

Do you maintain a curtain level of moisture and do you open the jars periodically? Do the buds change colors?

 

[loco41]

Ok, been a long time and long ways since the old Vamp blend was used our first year,
nevermind the Rasta blend, and Ocean Farmah blend, and now that we be working on the all new Rocky Mountain Blend, its time to officially release the recipe from 2016

The Dons' 5-way Living-blend;

1. 1 part HQ Coir and or Peat (ie. high quality- no compressed bricks, inspected for bad bugs, & very well rinsed)
2. 1 part 'fresh veggie fed' worm castings (gluten, cardboard, paper, meat & dairy free, low fruit) optional for non vegetarian recipes: feed 25% (of volume) vegan-rabbit manure or other premium manure to worms
3. 1 part humus / aged compost (in the past when in a rush we just used screened Vigoro if far from forest / rotted wood but now I would try avoid it, at least screen for any chunks, they're getting lazier I think)
4. 1 part aeration 1 (we like pumice best)
5. 1 part 2nd aeration (such as an N charged mix of bio char / organic buckwheat/rice hulls, if no leaf mould etc is avail)

Mineral Mix:
add 4 cups per Cu Ft, minimum

Example blend, equal parts

• Glacial Rock Dusts (we have / are currently testing 3 main kinds / colours, may be very useful depending on strain & application, ex: whether trying to grow for high CBD or THC or nutrients)
• Basalt
• Gypsum

Meal Mix:
add 1 to 2 cups per cu ft, min,

• 1/2 cup Kelp Meal (Minumum, & up to 1 to 2% kelp meal of total volume so 2 cups plus, with great effects on potency and speed, example pics to follow)
• 1/2 cup Neem Meal (Ahimsa Organic from India, I've tried more as well but this is safe start)
• 1/4 cup Crab Shell Meal (Finer the better, in terms of chunk size)

Pre-use Topdress:
with fungal food mix and grow some mycelium beforehand, such as organic oats, ground into flour strained through a sifter, finer the powder the better. Or another option is grokashi etc.

Notes continued:

• Use what you have to start, and start now, can apply more later on the go, scratch into surface etc, I would use whats available, add the others after, just stay above 4 cups and 1 cup though for minerals and meals though, respectively
• If you don't add gypsum be sure to gently foliar epsom on twice in early flower, 1/8 tsp per gallon does more than you think, both for terps, as well as vitamin production and mineral absorption, and wont cause burn
• Testing some recipes much higher than this 4 cups per cf for minerals but this is the generally accepted standard at the moment
• There are some other good / paramagnetic minerals, like granite and moonstone, and many more but these are the basics and very useful for basic expression, brix, density, as well as minerals, & therefore potency
• We also like greensand and its profile but we like to use our soil for years, note its not available for 2 years or so but is there after, we don't see anything wrong with using it & thinking long term/ shooting for 25+ cycles of use or more
• For alfafa, I now omit it, but wouldn't be opposed to using alfalfa seed teas in the first two wks of fruit setting if stretching is an issue.
• I also like fresh young coconut water, and real aloe, but good brands with one ingredient are also good, just go easy, less is more, and is repeatable, a burn isn't the most reversible.

Hey, sorry if this question was answered already, but I'm curious as to why you like to limit the fruit input into your worm castings and go strictly "veggie"? I seem to find myself feeding more so fruit scraps than veggie (probably a 75-25 fruit to veggie).

Also, I was wondering your take on recycling soil.I have been throwing the used soil in bins with some bokashi and re-amending lightly with most, not all, of the beginning inputs I used in the mix. A lot of the recycled soil I use for container veggies and starters for the outdoor garden, but have used it for my past two rounds of seed starters with no problems. Any advice on how to store/recycle (if that is even in your regimen) would be much appreciated.

 

[bearded.beaver]

it's hard to tell from the pic, but your soil appears to look really dry on the top. When plants are that size in that small of a container, i basically keep the soil moist at all times. not dripping wet, but never dry. with organics, wet/dry is not practical as it slows microbial life, which could be the reason for seeing some slight def of N. like the moisture of a lightly wrung out sponge.

also, they're honestly getting a little big for those containers. I'd be transplanting them to a one or two gallon like asap. then you don't have to worry about topdressing. if you're interested, try a SIP container. put 1-1.5" of pumice or perlite at the bottom (whatever you have for drainage), then put the soil on top of that, transplant and sidefill, mulch with pumice/perlite, set it in a drip tray (or a plate or something whatever you have) with water in it and let them wick it up. Have the level of water a little lower than the height of your pumice then you never have to guess when to water the plant! It's been working amazing for me.

So you mulch your sips with pumice/perlite I'm guessing that stays dry and helps with gnats. Something I a battling

 

[ShLUbY]

So you mulch your sips with pumice/perlite I'm guessing that stays dry and helps with gnats. Something I a battling

Yeah I mulch them with pumice (currently all plants get this as mulch regardless of water delivery methods) to keep my soil evap down. I probably don’t have it thick enough to help with gnats, but it possibly could be helping. I somehow rarely have gnat issues. Sand works great for keeping gnats outta the soil.

 

[Avant_Gardener]

Thanks for holding the fort down, brother!

What a crazy week having fun with fam from all over the country..

@Bubba's girl
I use Epsom salts twice every grow, both times, in the first ten days of flower, 14 max, and both times as a foliar, diluting 1/8 tsp per gallon only... the effects, when well timed, cause immense increases in vitamin and mineral absorbtion/production and can create really terpy effects.. to the point each leaf is so greasy its not even sticky, your fingers can slide off...

It wont do it to all genetics, but good genetics it will.. beyond this time point you can cause the reverse, for it to get all dry, and salty feeling, so be sure to time it right at the flip.

I also don't put it in the soil anymore!!

Such very phenomenal and most beneficial information. I'm asking this question mainly
from an economical standpoint and so I don't destroy any undeserving plants..
Could you use sea salt instead of Epson Salt?

 

[ShLUbY]

Such very phenomenal and most beneficial information. I'm asking this question mainly
from an economical standpoint and so I don't destroy any undeserving plants..
Could you use sea salt instead of Epson Salt?

you wouldn't want to use sea salt, as it has a lot more minerals than just Mg and SO4

 

[DonTesla]

Do you maintain a curtain level of moisture and do you open the jars periodically? Do the buds change colors?

Big delay, but better late than never.

I aim for 59% rh then look to drop that % very slowly .. Like 4 points over 100-200 days. Or a percentage point every month or so. I personally never want the finished herb itself above 59 (60s equal mould) or below 57.. Although little swings above and below is an important part of the art of masterful and pungent curing.

And yes all colours of dark green should disappear first.. Eventually light green then almost a yellow white.. As all chlorophyll gets broken down. Trichomes meanwhile may darken, aiding to an amber tinge to the herb, as well.

Cob curing, meanwhile, with corn leaves etc, can cause more brown colors, as well as less terps and less taste, and more anaerobic bacteria, naturally..but can activate more physcoactivity even to the point of possible (apparent) hallucinations..

you wouldn't want to use sea salt, as it has a lot more minerals than just Mg and SO4

Interesting thought.. although sea salt can boast up to what like 60 minerals, I've only wanted it for the Sulphur, and the Mg was a bonus.

When looking to mineralize the soil, I just naturally opt for kelp ewc and rock dusts.

Plus Epsom is so cheap and has many uses!

 

[DonTesla]

So you mulch your sips with pumice/perlite I'm guessing that stays dry and helps with gnats. Something I a battling

Always cover your worm food / scraps with soil / castings?
I use a sand on top if gnats get out of hand, two inches deep.. Roots will poke thru to breathe but gnats will get the shaft right away!

If you set up your plants to sip or wick, it can really make it easy to manage bugs more.

I also eliminated the use of compressed coir bricks, that helped get rid of the source.

 

[DonTesla]

Hey, sorry if this question was answered already, but I'm curious as to why you like to limit the fruit input into your worm castings and go strictly "veggie"? I seem to find myself feeding more so fruit scraps than veggie (probably a 75-25 fruit to veggie).

Also, I was wondering your take on recycling soil.I have been throwing the used soil in bins with some bokashi and re-amending lightly with most, not all, of the beginning inputs I used in the mix. A lot of the recycled soil I use for container veggies and starters for the outdoor garden, but have used it for my past two rounds of seed starters with no problems. Any advice on how to store/recycle (if that is even in your regimen) would be much appreciated.

Good question. It all started when I inherited a worm farm from some growers bigger than me but they didn't know organics yet, and after a day or two,I found they had a lot of pot worms from being acidic.

I never had issues with these, and they're not even bad really, the wigglers don't mind them actually, they just don't like it too acidic while pot worms apparently don't come and party until it is a bit acidic, so at that time I was aiming to balance the farms out with some alkalinity.

Fast forward a year, and I now use both fruit and veggies in all my farms, for now. I feel I have a really good grip on the bins now, love the texture, moisture levels, smell, colour, etc..

In the future I will likely do some more tests with this, to try achieve different ph levels, so I can photograph the resulting differences. A big side goal of mine.

 

[DonTesla]

I've been looking for a good source of micros and I've been using different mixes and having them tested. When I push with the Kelp, I get high sodium. When I push with rock dusts, I get high Mg and Ca levels. The problem is that I still don't get enough Mn or Zn from using them. Hyroot said that Bokashi and LABS could be the answer, do you agree? I'm not trying to pin you against him, just looking for answers. Maybe you could explain it in a different way that makes sense? Maybe, the rock dust needs longer to break down but I get an immediate impact on Ca and Mg when I use basalt and glacial, but not really a boost in micros. However, I did cut back on kelp and my boron is low for the 1st time...

I started a worm bin and pure leaf mold last year and the worm bin looks done, but the leaf mold still looks dry in the middle. I am getting good fungi development in the leaf mould though. It's just painfully slow, I probably need to turn it or something. I also think that turning it would destroy the mycelium, it's always a conundrum for me.
View attachment 4222716

Hey Stang, what's good brother..hope you're well.

So, been a while, but hows your soil drainage like these days.. Curious what's the recipe looking like when its normal vs being pushed..

..seems you started running all your leaf mould thru your worm bin to try amalgamate and accelerate the process, that's cool.

That said, I wouldn't be too afraid of breaking up any fungus, once you've introduced Fungi you are pretty much set, they will always find a way to be present.
I usually just gently fold it in, like I'm making pancake batter, clumps are ok.

However, when you push your inputs .. Are you doing so globally mixed in, mellowed for few months, or spike and layer style.. Globally mixed is gonna be tougher on the plants even tho that was my old style too.

I know I was like the dude preaching push your kelp, but I now have toned it back, even if I wanted to run it at 2% of total volume, I would do so in little amounts, and use more often, quarter cup every 2-3 wks vs say 2 cups all in the beginning.

And would not hurt to bring in bokashi or labs, if you're still not using any compost in your mix, as Fungi do do much of the heavier lifting and 'harder eating' of never mind woods but rocks and bones as well. Surely, one task is to ensure the micros are there to begin with, the next is to ensure all employees are in place to run the factory. So even if no compost yet, you could get both types of workers working for you stat.

Finally, you can always take a partition of your worm farm, and stop feeding it, so it finishes faster, and then use that to make tea or topdressing. Each percentage point of homemade compost, be it fungal or bacterial Dom, makes a a huge difference in the bio food web and therefore nutrient availability .. Same goes for each single % of Biochar. And AMF or myco.

Even if you've solved this, would like to know your go to recipe that you like to deviate from!

Stay honed in my friend,

http://www.compost.css.cornell.edu/calc/cn_ratio.html

DT

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Even if you've solved this, would like to know your go to recipe that you like to deviate from!

Clackamas Coots was my base recipe and I've been making adjustments according to my soil test results. I'm usually low in at least one micronutrient.

would not hurt to bring in bokashi or labs, if you're still not using any compost in your mix,

I started using compost again. I bought some soil from "Build a Soil" back in Dec 2016 and it didn't really work out, so I set it to the side and composted it for over a year with leaves, grass clippings, and rabbit bedding. This is the unmixed compost.


It's easier to expand the thumbnail pic. Anyways, this is pretty standard for my compost pile. I've been avoiding compost because of the high amount of phosphorus, but I'm starting to get the idea that it is something that I am going to have to deal with and always have to add Mn and iron.

Anyways, my last batch of soil ended having K def and I think that it was from too much Ca and Mg because I used a lot of dolomite lime and other rock dusts. That was the soil w/o compost and I'm not using it anymore.
I'm thinking about only using azomite and greensand in my compost because they both have a decent amount of Mn. I understand that the potassium levels need to be 2x the amount shown in the soil tests, the creator of the test talked about it on a cannabis podcast. So, I've been focusing on using less Ca and Mg and raising my K levels. Also, I'm trying to keep N levels down for a higher brix. You can compare this test to the one above and you can see how much sodium has raised by a moderate/light amount of kelp. This is the compost from above with 1:1:1 to peat, perlite, and compost. I added kelp, alfalfa, and neem meal also


Things didn't look too bad but the plants really were not happy. I mixed up some Mn, Fe, and Zn sulfate for a soil drench along with a fermented plant juice and things started to look better the next day. I also did a light foliar feed with mostly Mn and fermented plant juice because I know that Mn is not supposed to be very mobile in plant tissue. I'm kind of new to foliar feeding, but I have seen several people say that is one of the best ways to get high brix #'s. I really enjoyed Steve Solomon, author of the "Intelligent Gardener", and he suggested using BioMin Booster 153 during a podcast. So, I ordered it but it hasn't got here yet.

I always feel like I am close, but my plants tell me otherwise. I've been at this for over 8yrs now and I still can't get that perfect harvest. I had a perfect harvest about 2yrs ago, so I know what it looks like. I think that I just had some beginners luck and I am trying to back-track to see what part of it was right. I'm starting to think that it is the Greensand in the compost that made things right. I recently bought a 45lb bag of greensand because I feel like it is the piece of the puzzle that I am missing. I wasn't impressed with the last bag of Glacial Rock Dust that I bought. It looked identical to basalt, but I know that there is other GRD out there. The first time that I had GRD it was brown and micronized. This current bag is course and black/grey and I can't tell it apart from basalt.

Anyways, thanks for listening!

 

[DonTesla]

Clackamas Coots was my base recipe and I've been making adjustments according to my soil test results. I'm usually low in at least one micronutrient.

I started using compost again. I bought some soil from "Build a Soil" back in Dec 2016 and it didn't really work out, so I set it to the side and composted it for over a year with leaves, grass clippings, and rabbit bedding. This is the unmixed compost.
View attachment 4290494
View attachment 4290494
It's easier to expand the thumbnail pic. Anyways, this is pretty standard for my compost pile. I've been avoiding compost because of the high amount of phosphorus, but I'm starting to get the idea that it is something that I am going to have to deal with and always have to add Mn and iron.

Anyways, my last batch of soil ended having K def and I think that it was from too much Ca and Mg because I used a lot of dolomite lime and other rock dusts. That was the soil w/o compost and I'm not using it anymore.
I'm thinking about only using azomite and greensand in my compost because they both have a decent amount of Mn. I understand that the potassium levels need to be 2x the amount shown in the soil tests, the creator of the test talked about it on a cannabis podcast. So, I've been focusing on using less Ca and Mg and raising my K levels. Also, I'm trying to keep N levels down for a higher brix. You can compare this test to the one above and you can see how much sodium has raised by a moderate/light amount of kelp. This is the compost from above with 1:1:1 to peat, perlite, and compost. I added kelp, alfalfa, and neem meal also
View attachment 4290497
View attachment 4290497
Things didn't look too bad but the plants really were not happy. I mixed up some Mn, Fe, and Zn sulfate for a soil drench along with a fermented plant juice and things started to look better the next day. I also did a light foliar feed with mostly Mn and fermented plant juice because I know that Mn is not supposed to be very mobile in plant tissue. I'm kind of new to foliar feeding, but I have seen several people say that is one of the best ways to get high brix #'s. I really enjoyed Steve Solomon, author of the "Intelligent Gardener", and he suggested using BioMin Booster 153 during a podcast. So, I ordered it but it hasn't got here yet.

I always feel like I am close, but my plants tell me otherwise. I've been at this for over 8yrs now and I still can't get that perfect harvest. I had a perfect harvest about 2yrs ago, so I know what it looks like. I think that I just had some beginners luck and I am trying to back-track to see what part of it was right. I'm starting to think that it is the Greensand in the compost that made things right. I recently bought a 45lb bag of greensand because I feel like it is the piece of the puzzle that I am missing. I wasn't impressed with the last bag of Glacial Rock Dust that I bought. It looked identical to basalt, but I know that there is other GRD out there. The first time that I had GRD it was brown and micronized. This current bag is course and black/grey and I can't tell it apart from basalt.

Anyways, thanks for listening!

Pleasure, amigo, we appreciate you taking the time to explain things on your end..

I also find CC to be a bit off, so its a great convo to dive into.

First off, I love brown GRD, as well, its that colour from having high Fe, which I've read is supposed to help encourage CBD production.. I noticed roots loved it too, and I've used it as a bug barrier too with great success.
It's more rare than blue, green, and grey GRD, I suspect, but aside from the Fe, almost identical in terms of elemental analysis. Amazes me how close all these dusts are on paper from the lab..

One thing that concerns me a bit for you, is the use of animal bedding. Especially rabbit. I really love the poop for compost, or used to rep it huge, great source of boron and many micros, ready to go, but bedding, very high in ammonium and salts.. My damn rabbit was so cute, but fuck, did she piss everywhere, and like a drunken racehorse no less! miss you tho Edna.. Hope you're well!

Kelp, another great topic, I noticed the Na levels as high as 8% on some brands, lower than 1% on others..
NPK also ranging a fair bit. Up to 4x in some cases..

Another wild thought, if you switch to coir, which is slow release K, essentially, and eliminates the need for lime, would that help or have you tried that already to no avail? I liked the brand that rinsed in rain for two years..very low salts.

Lastly, foods rich in manganese..have you thought of running them through the worm farm at all? I love the womies..

Btw, love greensand.. I notice the massive trees in Bc grow in like, shit, 80% rock dusts / sands, unreal how little soil and topsoil supporting these ecosystems.. Sometimes i would dig two inches down, thru leaf mould, then bam, straight sand..rock dusts.. Very shocking to me.

Although they sure have fungi on their side.. Tonnes of leaves falling every year, turning to leaf mould each season that passes..

More later once I get to study charts a bit..have a great day everyone!

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Another wild thought, if you switch to coir, which is slow release K, essentially, and eliminates the need for lime, would that help or have you tried that already to no avail? I liked the brand that rinsed in rain for two years..very low salts.

I used to make my worm bedding from coco coir but after soil testing, I found that I was getting a large amount of K and Na. The K was fine but the Na was causing problems. I didn't know that there was a low salt version, good to know. It's hard to use kelp because of the sodium also, both K inputs.

One thing that concerns me a bit for you, is the use of animal bedding. Especially rabbit. I really love the poop for compost, or used to rep it huge, great source of boron and many micros, ready to go, but bedding, very high in ammonium and salts.. My damn rabbit was so cute, but fuck, did she piss everywhere, and like a drunken racehorse no less! miss you tho Edna.. Hope you're well!

People in Kenya are big on rabbit piss fertilizer, but they are growing outdoor in larger areas. I need to start making a new cage for them, so maybe I'll put in some time and build one that seperates the manure/hay from the urine. It shouldn't be too hard. I might start a new compost for my outdoor plants and salt won't be such an issue? I'm trying to get into high brix food crops because I have plenty of room in my yard.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Lastly, foods rich in manganese..have you thought of running them through the worm farm at all? I love the womies..

From what I understand, red wheat bran and azomite have Mn and I use both in my homemade Grokashi. I recently looked into greensand again and I bought an economy 45lb bag of it lol. It has K, Mg, Fe, and Mn along with silica. I'm not really sure what foods are rich in Mn.

 

[Jesselikes2grow]

Bananas have a decent amount of Mn, has a lot of K, and decent Mg as well. Other good things too.

 

[Jesselikes2grow]

From what I understand, red wheat bran and azomite have Mn and I use both in my homemade Grokashi. I recently looked into greensand again and I bought an economy 45lb bag of it lol. It has K, Mg, Fe, and Mn along with silica. I'm not really sure what foods are rich in Mn.

Also check this out for your manganese foods.
https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/foods-high-in-manganese.php

 

[DonTesla]

Yeah we turn a fair bit of spinach into castings.. Organic bananas too

Hard red wheat is great if making DIY bokashi.. Can Even work some into worm farm raw too

That greensand is great too, just very slow release, but faster if fungi are well established.. I do like greensand for multi year mixes, for its 60 plus elements and goodies you mentioned
@MustangStudFarm

I also found that if you mix your inputs that you want to push ( above the standard coots recipe ) with castings, and make a beer cup size spike, roots will just flourish in those zones, when needed, but the global mix can remain lighter..

Can't remember if I mentioned that minor tactic, haha.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Another wild thought, if you switch to coir, which is slow release K, essentially, and eliminates the need for lime, would that help or have you tried that already to no avail? I liked the brand that rinsed in rain for two years..very low salts.

I have been thinking about this and I am seriously considering adding Coir. Is there a brand that you suggest?

Kelp, another great topic, I noticed the Na levels as high as 8% on some brands, lower than 1% on others..
NPK also ranging a fair bit. Up to 4x in some cases..

I ended up getting liquid kelp because it is cold compressed and they say that the enzymes are still living. It has a 4% potassium to 1% nitrogen. I really don't know about the amount of salt?

 

[DonTesla]

I have been thinking about this and I am seriously considering adding Coir. Is there a brand that you suggest?

I ended up getting liquid kelp because it is cold compressed and they say that the enzymes are still living. It has a 4% potassium to 1% nitrogen. I really don't know about the amount of salt?

I think a blend is a good idea.. get the best from both worlds.
@ShLUbY is it you that started blending the peat and coir in your base, hows that been working for ya brotha?

@DonPetro was it Botanicaire that uses rain for two years outside before packing their coir, if you recall? I believe the writing was mostly green on a mostly white bag..
I really liked the coir you got me on to, but I don't think they carry it anymore for some reason..

@MustangStudFarm
I haven't used liquid kelp yet, but generally speaking cold pressing is where its at. Olive oils, etc etc. You can get kelp with 1 and 2 % potassium so yours seems stronger.. about twice as strong.

I would be tempted to go light with in, in your overall base, and then experiment with spikes and or in liquid cases, follow up applications..

speaking of which, when you have pushed your mixes, with Ca / dusts and meals like kelp, etc, that was done globally, as in mixed in fully hey, no splices or nothing?

 

[MustangStudFarm]

@DonPetro was it Botanicaire that uses rain for two years outside before packing their coir, if you recall? I believe the writing was mostly green on a mostly white bag..
I really liked the coir you got me on to, but I don't think they carry it anymore for some reason..

I have access to Botnicare coir, that's not a problem.

I would be tempted to go light with in, in your overall base, and then experiment with spikes and or in liquid cases, follow up applications..

speaking of which, when you have pushed your mixes, with Ca / dusts and meals like kelp, etc, that was done globally, as in mixed in fully hey, no splices or nothing?

I've been cutting my compost with peat/perlite and adding greensand, azomite, alfalfa and kelp usually. I've been working on getting the #'s down to a reasonable level to keep from having lock out issues. I've been low in Mn, but I only treated the soil 1 time and I think that is where I have been messing up. Maybe, I need to use smaller doses but more often?

Here is my compost before I add anything.


I used the stuff that I mentioned earlier rock dust, alfalfa, and kelp. I used the kelp very sparingly, but my Na levels shot upward. I was trying to keep the N and K levels where they were. It don't look like the Greensand or Azomite helped with the trace minerals, I know that they are slow release but I saw that they can be up to 11% soluble. Still, I had to add Mn sulfate along with very small amounts of Zn and Fe sulfate. I add the sulfates to the water because it would be hard to spread a tablespoon over several cubic feet of soil.

I had plants in this soil for about 3 weeks while I waited on the soil test and they started to show spots, normal for Mn def. I added the trace minerals and they really took off, but they are still kind of pale. I used a micronutrient foliar spray and it smelled like it was chelated with fish amino acids.

https://www.kisorganics.com/products/biomin-booster-153

I was following Dr. Steve Solomon(author) and he specifically talked about remineralizing soil and wrote some books covering it. Everything seems to be going well at the moment. I did just get 4x Earthboxes delivered and they are on my front porch.