Abortion,Birth Control and Resource Depletion

BustinScales510

Well-Known Member
I think the debate over abortion will always be heated. It is a huge decision that has an impact on those who utilize it, as well as those who are against it. On a lesser scale, birth control is controversial too..for those who think even the prevention of life is immoral. But with that being said..what happens when there are too many people? We as humans need a certain amount of things to survive - fresh water,trees to convert c02 to oxygen,arable land for agriculture/livestock (unless we revert to hunter gatherer)..and a shitload more oil if we wish to continue on with the level of industrialization we've become accustomed to. No amount of technological advancements could produce enough green energy and no amount of unharnessed oil drilling could supply all that we need once a certain number is breached (9 billion..? 10,12,15?). The global population is growing exponentially,so mathematically speaking.. it is not possible to keep rising forever. Where is the tipping point..and what do you all think will happen as we approach it?
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
They say there are already too many people and I tend to agree by the way Mother Earth has been working so damned hard to balance things out again. People who don't believe in birth control are foolish and ignorant and pig headed. the invisible space daddy said to procreate and who's smarter than the invisible space daddy? :wall:
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
"Green" energy is either an intermission ... or a trap. We need to progress from "black" energy (fossil fuel) to the "white" stuff (fusion or better). "green" energy which harvests what gradients happen at the planet's surface, are distributed and rather dilute. They'll be fine for supplying household energy, but for the sort of industry that a progressive technical society requires, they won't do. A concentrated, uninterrupted energy source with power density meeting or exceeding current fossil tech is necessary. Nuclear fission might pinch-hit until we either run out of THAT fossil fuel ... or develop fusion or better.
The number of people the planet's surface can support has everything to do with how much energy per capita is available. cn
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
"Green" energy is either an intermission ... or a trap. We need to progress from "black" energy (fossil fuel) to the "white" stuff (fusion or better). "green" energy which harvests what gradients happen at the planet's surface, are distributed and rather dilute. They'll be fine for supplying household energy, but for the sort of industry that a progressive technical society requires, they won't do. A concentrated, uninterrupted energy source with power density meeting or exceeding current fossil tech is necessary. Nuclear fission might pinch-hit until we either run out of THAT fossil fuel ... or develop fusion or better.
The number of people the planet's surface can support has everything to do with how much energy per capita is available. cn
Well green is a much better choice until we tranisition to white. I excelled at the humanities of Env Sci but was so lost in the Sciency ones and the environnental economics I don't know why they had such technical classes in an Env Science program but Hey, what's your thoughts on windmills and solar once they play catch up on the cost and efficiency factors? Do you think hemp is a viable replacement fuel?
 

GreatwhiteNorth

Global Moderator
Staff member
It is my understanding that during its service life, a windmill cannot produce the amount of energy it takes to actually manufacture & install one.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Windmills, solar and bio (incl. hemp) are ways to harvest some energy from the planetary surface reservoir ... which is distributed and dilute. Harvesting energy that way will always be very, very expensive. Imagine how much solar it would take to just run the solar panel factory. Imagine how many windmills would be needed to run the whole windmill-making industry, from mines to installation. (And then factor in the replacements needed to keep that army of 'mills at full count). Imagine how much hemp, as oil or just biomass, it would take to fully meet the energy needs of the hemp plantation and its associated tractor factory.

The energy cost of green is at best a sizable fraction of gross energy yield. Currently it's negative (meaning making green energy devices consumes more fossil energy than it saves!) and it might stay that way. The improvement in industrial efficiency needed ... is effectively magical from our millennial perspective. We simply don't have the time to revolutionize it before the black energy runs out. Maybe, maybe ... if we had a project like Manhattan or Apollo ... we could get fusion online in time. But only maybe.

And with Western society apparently in a decadent phase, where a welfare economy is testing the load limit of international finance, combined with the looming spectre of global climate change costing us our shorelines, much of our arable/habitable land, and the oldest and brightest seats of our culture and history ... we might be in a footrace with/against a collapse that'll make the fall of Rome look like the cancellation of a favorite TV show. cn
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
I love when I can draw a response from you on these matters but I am a real life :dunce: on this stuff I still think the tv and landline phones are magic -let's put my science knowledge in a little perspective so you can talk down at my level? I took and should never have passed sciences as far ahead as physics and areodynamics but my understanding and comprehension is at levers and pulleys. I sort of get from the see saw that if I use a lever the longer the better and I think it's because of this gravity thing I don't really get either so

no I can't imagine how many solar panels or windmills it would take but wouldn't it only take what it took to make them much like black energy is used to make them? and I do get that it costs as much to produce ethanol than is saved but I get farming and they also factor that with the use of petroleum pesticides to grow the damn corn but what about hemp? or say those grease cars, the old diesels turned into engines running on fast food oil waste?
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
and I remember in 1988ish learning in Science class about this fusion? was it also put on the back burner and not heavily researched since or is it really that hard?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I love when I can draw a response from you on these matters but I am a real life :dunce: on this stuff I still think the tv and landline phones are magic -let's put my science knowledge in a little perspective so you can talk down at my level? I took and should never have passed sciences as far ahead as physics and areodynamics but my understanding and comprehension is at levers and pulleys. I sort of get from the see saw that if I use a lever the longer the better and I think it's because of this gravity thing I don't really get either so

no I can't imagine how many solar panels or windmills it would take but wouldn't it only take what it took to make them much like black energy is used to make them? and I do get that it costs as much to produce ethanol than is saved but I get farming and they also factor that with the use of petroleum pesticides to grow the damn corn but what about hemp? or say those grease cars, the old diesels turned into engines running on fast food oil waste?
Those grease cars are awesome imo, but they exist in a niche of their own ... fast food grease is commonly available everywhere and too distributed to lend itself to recycling except by dedicated fuel hobbyists. When I get my next house, I'll seriously consider setting up to make biodiesel ... and heat the house with all that free grease.
But the cost of farming is surprisingly high. For hemp to be a viable green energy source, growing it would have to proceed at a net energy surplus, and a healthy one too. Sadly, i don't have a good source for the numbers. cn
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
Those grease cars are awesome imo, but they exist in a niche of their own ... fast food grease is commonly available everywhere and too distributed to lend itself to recycling except by dedicated fuel hobbyists. When I get my next house, I'll seriously consider setting up to make biodiesel ... and heat the house with all that free grease.
But the cost of farming is surprisingly high. For hemp to be a viable green energy source, growing it would have to proceed at a net energy surplus, and a healthy one too. Sadly, i don't have a good source for the numbers. cn
How could you? they won't even let them grow it up in N Dakota after what a decade now? Yeah, the only reason I never got a grease car was the not being a fuel hobbyist however I do own a house and think that is fucking brilliant and also wonder why not many fuel hobbyists have taken it upon themselves to processing the fast food grease for a profit and going partners with a mechanic who will fix up the diesels into greasers, sell at a small profit and then have those customers for fuel ? Also, I don't get how hemp with no fertilizer or pesticides using equipment run with hemp fuel is not ?
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member


Btw I dont know much about "Zero point energy/technology", it has something to do with electromagnetic fields and what not. I heard about it in a documentary and two different scientists apparently presented their free/unlimited energy machines to the government. Later, both labs of the scientists were destroyed along with their careers. Another man that was trying to spread the word of this technology was mysteriously beaten to death. If free/unlimited energy were to exist, it would make sense that those that are in power dont want anybody knowing about it lol. Tesla went through a similar situation. I could provide the documentary, you probably already heard of it, theres minimal spiritual jibber jabber lol.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus


Btw I dont know much about "Zero point energy/technology", it has something to do with electromagnetic fields and what not. I heard about it in a documentary and two different scientists apparently presented their free/unlimited energy machines to the government. Later, both labs of the scientists were destroyed along with their careers. Another man that was trying to spread the word of this technology was mysteriously beaten to death. If free/unlimited energy were to exist, it would make sense that those that are in power dont want anybody knowing about it lol. Tesla went through a similar situation. I could provide the documentary, you probably already heard of it, theres minimal spiritual jibber jabber lol.
Zero-point energy is a lovely idea; essentially free energy in any amount one could want. However the adverb "apparently" conceals the vanishingly low probability of those two having had anything at all. Nobody has a clue as to how to extract this energy if it is in fact real. But folks have been trying for perpetual motion, unity gain, whatever one wants to call it, since time immemorial. Zero point is just the hottest new buzzword for the lame old buzz. And Youtube is an amazing breeding ground for woo, spiritual or not. This counts as tech-woo, if you ask me. Like the water carburetor. But ginning up a lethal conspiracy story to go along with it spices the tale, no? cn
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
The names of the scientists and the person that was killed are mentioned in the documentary. I dont think its any conspiracy that the government doesnt want us to know about free/unlimited/clean energy, that would mean saying goodbye to fossil fuels, goodbye to natural gas, goodbye to hydro, goodbye to MONEY, and the government doesnt want that lol dont you agree? Hell, as soon as people found out that Tesla might of found out how to access free radiant energy without the use of power lines, JP Morgan cut his funding and burned his science lab down because his discovery would mean a massive loss of money for those that are in power. Im no scientist with great understandings of torsion fields and stuff like that so I guess people like me can only assume it all makes sense. The documentary has a bit of spiritual/ET speculation but the connections made are considerable if you are open to the idea that we are not alone. Still fun to think about if you are skeptical. The documentary is called "Thrive" and its about what makes the world go round, who runs the country, what direction we need to go etc. And it just so happens the only place you can watch it for free is on youtube lol take from it what you will. If you want to skip the spiritual/ET speculation and right to the facts and Zero point technology then skip to 34 minutes in. The creator of the documentary is interviewing a physicist who made one of these free energy machines, his name is Adam Trombly. The creator of the documentary then talks about John Bedini who invented a similar free energy device and his lab was later destroyed. If the video is too much of a bother than at least google Adam Trombly and John Bedini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
The names of the scientists and the person that was killed are mentioned in the documentary. I dont think its any conspiracy that the government doesnt want us to know about free/unlimited/clean energy, that would mean saying goodbye to fossil fuels, goodbye to natural gas, goodbye to hydro, goodbye to MONEY, and the government doesnt want that lol dont you agree? Hell, as soon as people found out that Tesla might of found out how to access free radiant energy without the use of power lines, JP Morgan cut his funding and burned his science lab down because his discovery would mean a massive loss of money for those that are in power. Im no scientist with great understandings of torsion fields and stuff like that so I guess people like me can only assume it all makes sense. The documentary has a bit of spiritual/ET speculation but the connections made are considerable if you are open to the idea that we are not alone. Still fun to think about if you are skeptical. The documentary is called "Thrive" and its about what makes the world go round, who runs the country, what direction we need to go etc. And it just so happens the only place you can watch it for free is on youtube lol take from it what you will. If you want to skip the spiritual/ET speculation and right to the facts and Zero point technology then skip to 34 minutes in. The creator of the documentary is interviewing a physicist who made one of these free energy machines, his name is Adam Trombly. The creator of the documentary then talks about John Bedini who invented a similar free energy device and his lab was later destroyed. If the video is too much of a bother than at least google Adam Trombly and John Bedini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s
Seriously for a second, if a better energy tech existed, do you believe for a second that the Gov't would suppress it? They'd JUMP on that!! Imagine the edge it would provide. Months later, we'd be the USW. Not just America any more. Power is POWER. cn
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
Seriously for a second, if a better energy tech existed, do you believe for a second that the Gov't would suppress it? They'd JUMP on that!! Imagine the edge it would provide. Months later, we'd be the USW. Not just America any more. Power is POWER. cn
Also 200 trillion dollars worth of energy (fossil fuels, coal, hydro, etc) would be obsolete if free/unlimited energy were made public. As soon as JP Morgan heard that Tesla was on a breakthrough of free radiant energy, his funding was cut and his lab was burnt down. Money is POWER.
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
Zero-point energy is a lovely idea; essentially free energy in any amount one could want. However the adverb "apparently" conceals the vanishingly low probability of those two having had anything at all. Nobody has a clue as to how to extract this energy if it is in fact real. But folks have been trying for perpetual motion, unity gain, whatever one wants to call it, since time immemorial. Zero point is just the hottest new buzzword for the lame old buzz. And Youtube is an amazing breeding ground for woo, spiritual or not. This counts as tech-woo, if you ask me. Like the water carburetor. But ginning up a lethal conspiracy story to go along with it spices the tale, no? cn
ok but you also don't think there is enough evidence that stands up to scientific evidence that we at the very least let 911 happen so ?
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
Seriously for a second, if a better energy tech existed, do you believe for a second that the Gov't would suppress it? They'd JUMP on that!! Imagine the edge it would provide. Months later, we'd be the USW. Not just America any more. Power is POWER. cn
wow cn do you honestly believe that? the government is run by oil men who committed mass genocide in S America (Bush Sr/Reagan) started the bogus drug war that has increased the prison population since the early 80s by almost 400% while the entire population only increased 30% and coincidentally the same history line of private prisons, we all know that greed runs the world and that nothing has even been cured since polio I could go on the government of Big CorpGov is not our friends they don't want us to be happy and kill the good guys while letting the evil fucks run the show-its not a tin foil hat thing to understand that when the few very wealthy get together they do things that help them and only them or they conspire to not let us little people in on shit that would ruin their incoming wealth.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
When I was 20 or so I was very interested in the idea of free energy. I was also swayed by the argument (it's still a reasonable argument to a point) that the technology would be suppressed. Since then I have come to the realization that the biggest hurtle by far for free energy is not suppression, but nature, specifically...

First law of thermodynamics: Heat and work are forms of energy transfer. Energy is invariably conserved but the internal energy of a closed system changes as heat and work are transferred in or out of it. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the first kind are impossible.


Second law of thermodynamics: The entropy of any isolated system not in thermal equilibrium almost always increases. Isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermal equilibrium -- the state of maximum entropy of the system -- in a process known as "thermalization". Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the second kind are impossible.

These are natures laws that can not be influenced by governments or economics. Finding a way around these laws would mean power, influence and prestige light years beyond any achieved by big energy. It would mean more than going to the moon, more than finding a nearby planet full of fossil fuel, more than the discovery of fire; it would mean only slightly less than finding conclusive evidence of God. Indeed, successfully breaking these laws would give us the potential to be godlike.

Anyone who understands the technology enough to want to suppress it, would also understand it enough to want to possess it. It could in fact lead to near immortality. I have a hard time believing big energy would just destroy the technology rather than take advantage of it. Even rich people want to live forever.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
wow cn do you honestly believe that? the government is run by oil men who committed mass genocide in S America (Bush Sr/Reagan) started the bogus drug war that has increased the prison population since the early 80s by almost 400% while the entire population only increased 30% and coincidentally the same history line of private prisons, we all know that greed runs the world and that nothing has even been cured since polio I could go on the government of Big CorpGov is not our friends they don't want us to be happy and kill the good guys while letting the evil fucks run the show-its not a tin foil hat thing to understand that when the few very wealthy get together they do things that help them and only them or they conspire to not let us little people in on shit that would ruin their incoming wealth.
Yes, Mellow, I believe both those articles of anathema:
1) that 9/11 was unplanned by the West, and
2) that a good energy source would break the black energy cartel.

To me that is a compelling argument that nobody has a lead on a truly better energy source. Such a thing could not be suppressed for a long time. If BP could steal a march on Shell and Exxon, i have no doubt at all that they'd do so ... after first rigging the derivatives market of course. The forms must be obeyed. :mrgreen:

A new energy source is far, far more valuable developed than suppressed. (<edit> I am restating something Heisenberg posted. It seems quite sensible to me.) The trick is to be the one who develops it first. A few very wealthy men could not stem that tide, should it ever have a grain of truth in it. My opinion. cn
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
How long has the jesus conspiracy been suppressed? Pearl Harbor? JFK? hell they have actual written proof that no one bothers to look at and video and... ok, not with me yet? 75 years of silence about ding ding ding

mari ju wana's bad m'kay because it's bad you see if you smoke marijuana then you're bad because it's bad

When haliburton's not busy murdering folks for a living they make a lot of $ from oil in one form of another... who still was on the payroll of Haliburton right into his term of VP and made hella bank on that political influence? Cheney Who owned Brown and Root Oil before it merged with Kellogg making KBR? Yup the Bush family since way back. Who owns most of BP oil? J.P. Morgan Which fascist country chronically mislabels itself a democracy much like W calling himself a compassionate conservative? they don't care about you or me we are not in the Big Club!



Monday, February 13, 2006
Bush Owns Halliburton?
"Nothing happens in politics by accident. If it happens, it was planned that way."
-- Franklin Roosevelt

Most of the rebuttals I read or hear concerning something Cheney or Bush has said starts out with the assumption that they are deluded or "live in a fantasy." Let's assume for the sake of argument that they are not deluded and that they are as in touch with "reality" as anyone else. Lets just assume that they are deliberately telling bald-faced lies for their own nefarious reasons.

Let's say, for instance, that they have no interest whatever in "national security" or "spreading democracy" or "fighting terrorists." Let's say they just took over the US to deliberately start a war to make money through companies that are now reaping huge profits from the conflict in Iraq; companies such as Halliburton and various other oil related industries.

The facts so far seem to support this argument. Cheney, who still receives a yearly paycheck of $145,000 from Halliburton, has a huge amount of Halliburton stock and an undisclosed number of options. Since 2001, Halliburton stock has gone from $10 per share to $60 per share.

Bush, on the other hand doesn't seem to profit much until one knows a bit about the history of Halliburton. In the 1930's, the Bush family bought the Dresser Company, a very successful company making oil drilling equipment. In the late 70's, Dresser, still owned by the Bush family, merged with Halliburton.

At the time, Dresser was in a much better financial position than Halliburton so the Bush family did not receive much money from the deal. Obviously then, they were paid in Halliburton stock. Right now, there are about 1500 "owners of record" of Halliburton, most of them are institutions, investment companies, and holding companies, so it is beyond my ability to prove that the Bush family owns a controlling interest in Halliburton but, unless they gave away their holdings from the Dresser deal, they do.

So, what am I saying? I am saying that this country is run of, by and for Halliburton and a few other oil and pharmacological companies the Bush family has financial interests in. We have to pull our heads out of our behinds and recognize that these people are not just misguided right-wing patriots living in a fantasy. They are hard-headed business men. They have a plan and that plan is to concentrate as much wealth and power in theirs hands as possible. Any frame or argument that doesn't recognize this is just whistling in the dark.
 
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