Zaehet Strife
Well-Known Member
- This is a long read, but it is very interesting how it pans out. I took a lot of time to erase the real names and put in new one's. If you have the time, and nothing else to do, please, i encourage you to enlighten me with your thought's and opinions on this conversation. If it spans out any further, i will keep you posted.
Thanks in advance for the time spent reading, and time spent replying, it means a lot to me.
Katie:
i believe in existence, i believe in life. i believe in love. i believe the the fundamental self. i believe in the universe. I believe in wholeness. i believe in creations. I believe in connections. I believe in energy. I believe in vibration. I believe in growth. I believe in expression. I believe in expansion. i believe in multidimensionality. I believe in synchronicity.
These are, in my mind, one, all the same thing, and two, axioms, like mathematical truths that one perceives and cannot deny. All my ideas interpreted as "true" or "false" are just articulations and artistic expressions the the same one thing.
Taking an idea, and saying it is false is like looking at art and saying that it is false. It does not make sense.
Zaehet:
I'm not saying it is false, nor am i saying it is true... i'm saying you, nor i, know with any amount of certainty if our ideas are true... or false.
We could be completely wrong, or right... so to say with certainty that our ideas we have about the universe and reality is certainly true... is certainly a lie.
Katie:
i don't think you get it
in your mind, does it make sense to look at a piece of art, and say "I'll never be certain if this art is wrong (which means false)"
?
Zaehet:
art is not a belief about existence or reality
Katie:
you still dont get it.
beliefs are just artistic expressions, we take what we see and create something that is symbolic. it is never right or wrong, just likeart cannot be right or wrong, it just IS
Zaehet:
nah, you don't get it, i am trying to explain to you... that you're beliefs about existence, reality, and death, you can't be sure if they are true or not, nor matter what they are.... because there are an infinite number of possibilities of what they are, what they could be, and what could happen.
Because none of us truly know... no matter how hard me might tell ourselves we do.
Katie:
and it like you dont understand anything i ever say
Zaehet:
So when you tell me you know you have a soul, and you are not your body etc. etc. , i know you are lying, because you don't know that for sure.
Zaehet:
no but i do understand
you are tryin to say that your beliefs are merely a poetic expression of what you want to be true, right?
Katie:
you misunderstand
and we've already been over this, over, andover, and over again
Zaehet:
explain it to me as simply as you can then.
with as few words as possible
Katie:
i DO NOT KNNNOOOOWWW I HAVE A SOUL
Zaehet:
k good, first step lol
Katie:
i know i am a self, my self is a soul, it is something i perceive, and beause you are trapped in definitios are limit your mind, you cannot understand what that means, its not knowlegde, its an understanding of who i am
do you beleive you have a self?
Zaehet:
yes, i make myself, every single day, just like you... i am merely the choices i make... which is all dependent on the environment i grew up in, the society i grew up in, the way i was raised, and how i, and you, personally chose to react to each and every situation and experience that arose by chance, from the time we were born, until now, this moment.
Katie:
do you believe you have a self?
....
Zaehet:
define self
Katie:
you know what self is
Zaehet:
.... i do, but i think your meaning of self is different
Katie:
how so?
self is the thing that makes you- you
Zaehet:
self= merely the choices i make... which is all dependent on the environment i grew up in, the society i grew up in, the way i was raised, and how i, and you, personally chose to react to each and every situation and experience that arose by chance, from the time we were born, until now, this moment.
self= ego
Zaehet:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=self&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=MdB8UJLcG8a40gHDg4HIDQ&ved=0CBwQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=f49d5c828409ff24&bpcl=35277026&biw=1024&bih=602
this is self, but i think you are trying to say it is something else.
Zaehet:
if we are gonna talk to each other, we have to make sure what we are trying to say is completely and utterly understood without a doubt.
Katie:
your self is not the thoughts you think?
Zaehet:
yes that is part of it, but the thoughts i think are all dependent on the environment i grew up in, the society i grew up in, the way i was raised, and how i, and you, personally chose to react to each and every situation and experience that arose by chance, from the time we were born, until now, this moment.
Katie:
(and that not possibly, its even perpastuous that you assert that)
cool, and your self is not the feeelings you feel?
Zaehet:
yes, and those are dependent on the same things i keep pasting.
Katie:
ok, thats a beautiful interprations of what CAUSED your self to be your self, but now we came to a defintion od what self is, it is what makes you you
do you beleive you have a self, that wich makes you, you?
....?
Zaehet:
dude, i keep trying to tell you, ive said it over and over again, you are trying to use the word self as a different definition.
yes i believe in me, and i am merely the choices i make... which is all dependent on the environment i grew up in, the society i grew up in, the way i was raised, and how i, and you, personally chose to react to each and every situation and experience that arose by chance, from the time we were born, until now, this moment.
thats me, my self, what makes me me, my self.
self = ego
Zaehet:
if what you think is self... is something else, explain it to me...
i already know katie, that when you use the word self... you are really trying to use the word soul.
The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.......
Zaehet:
There is a HUGE difference. Yes i believe in myself, no i do not believe in a soul... because there is no evidence, no proof, no nothing to base it on. I believe in me because i am here, i can touch me, i think, so i have legit proof, as far as i can tell... even though i may not be certain, yes, i believe i do exist.
Zaehet:
The universe continues to tell us through the death of stars, black holes, super nova, pulsars, neutron stars... it keeps telling us over and over again, that nothing lasts forever... and that everything eventually gets broken down into the smallest particles... atoms, and dispersed or (recycled) back into the universe.
Why should the universe treat us feeble humans any differently than it treats itself?
Katie:
it seems like you are ating imcompetant, im sorry if im going to be offensive, but it is like you do not understand anything i say, it is like you are having a conversation with someone who is not me, so i'd rather have you PRETEND you were talking to me, becasue that is what this feels like.
you NEVER said more than ONE time that we were using different defintions. we JUST deteremined that a self is what makes you you. you had an extenional defintions of that which makes you you is your choices, thoughts, and feelings, it doesnt really matter because its extensional. Then you went on and on irrelevantly about what CAUSED you to be you, which like i already imply is IRRELENT to the point at hand. I never said that i thought the self was something ELSE, i dont know what the FUCK you think that, your own mind is twisting you into these loops and it seems like you are completely STUCK in a rut, unable to conceputally move, and im SICK of having the same conversation with you over and over and over again, when you never listen to me. if you were to say, "Yes i have a self, that which MAKES ME ME" that is the EXACT SAME THING in my mind as saying "Yes i have a soul" its not saying anything ELSE, its NOT DIFFERENT likefor SOME REASON you think it is. its the exact same thing. and im sorry, but im done talking with you tonight. think about, seriously za. stop opening your mouth without EVER thinking about what i say, it annoying, and feels like a waste of my time.
Zaehet:
ok, i will answer your question, yes, i do think it is true that i am my self
you asked, "do you believe you have a self, that witch makes you, you?"
im not swearing, im not getting angry, im trying to understand you Katie, and im trying to understand you EXACTLY without a doubt of what you are talking about.
Zaehet:
Next time you get on, we can continue where we left of, you asked me
"do you believe you have a self, that which makes you, you?"
my answer is
" yes, i do think it is true that i am my self, and that i make me, me."
