trichlone fiend
New Member
nitrogen issue due to bad ph...
2 weeks and 2 days into flowering. yellowing-yellow mid bottom leaves???
- Thread starter phenix white
- Start date
phenix white
Active Member
i checked my ph 5 days ago..it was 6.8,..so some are saying N defncy you are telling me PH..i looked at those pics and they kinda look like ph just dont have that curl or burning like those do..also most the burn spots are from lights touching but not all of them!. so whAT I DO?
HookdOnChronics
Well-Known Member
lol, bro, the '59' in your 9-59-8 is not your PH. lol, that is your Phosphorus. Your PH doesn't have to do so much with the nutes your using, as it does with the water your using. pH is a measurement of how acidic or alkaline a solution is. It varies from city to city, tap to tap.
Also you said you switched to your flowering fert, how long after turning the lights to 12/12 did you start using flowering ferts? Because it's my advice to continue to feed VEG nutes for the first 2 weeks into flower, and slowly switch from that to the bloom fert. It's OK to mix your veg/bloom ferts for a different NPK ratio. That's what I do.
So first week into flower I use a full veg nute, then next feeding I do a 3/4 veg and 1/4 bloom, then next watering I do 1/2 veg and 1/2 bloom, then nex I do 1/4 veg and 3/4 bloom, and finally I'm at 100% bloom fert. This way your plant is still getting the N it needs while it switches over to flower, then won't need that N so much anymore. Does this make sense?
What do you do? I would FLUSH the plant, then get some superthrive. And after giving a flush, use a FULL VEG nute (I use Miracle Grow all purpose plant food, 24-8-26, and a tsp of superthrived to 1 gallon of water. I bet she'll perck back up in no time.
trichlone fiend
New Member
...I personally do not even check my pH when I grow in soil, however, I grow organically in soil. When you start adding all those fertilizers (9-59-
into your soil, your soil buffers the salts. The salts lower your PH. I rest my case. Fill free to view my journal in my sig if you doubt my growing skills friends.
into your soil, your soil buffers the salts. The salts lower your PH. I rest my case. Fill free to view my journal in my sig if you doubt my growing skills friends.
HookdOnChronics
Well-Known Member
^^^^^ I grow in soil aswell and I have NOT ONCE checked MY ph..... I use chemical ferts also, BTW.....
trichlone fiend
New Member
...here's a good read for ya.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When you apply fertilizers that have ammonium as a portion of the product, or some fraction that will turn into ammonium, you are adding "acidity" to the soil. It doesn't matter what kind or type of fertilizer, conventional or organic source, just that it has ammonium (or ammonia) in it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ammonium is made up of nitrogen and hydrogen, three atoms of hydrogen for each atom of nitrogen. (NH3-). Shortly after the ammonium reaches the soil, because it has a negative charge, it binds to the positively charged soil or organic matter. Through time, it is converted to nitrate by soil bacteria. The warmer the soil, the faster the conversion. It is the nitrate form of N that is most mobile in the soil, most likely to leach into groundwater, and usually is the form of N most used by the crop.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]During the conversion of ammonium to nitrate, the nitrogen compound loses the three hydrogen and adds two oxygen. The oxygen comes from the air in the soil. The three hydrogen particles are free to float about the water in the soil and to react with various substances there. Free hydrogen very reactive, and is the "acid" in anything. (Incidentally, acids taste tart, but I don't recommend that you go around tasting soil to see if it's tart or sweet, though I have seen some hard-core soil scientists do that.) The H+ atoms can react with lime (calcium carbonate) in the soil, forming water and carbon dioxide and thus be neutralized, or the H+ can tie up on soil particles, react with all sorts of chemicals or organisms in the soil, or they can just drift around in the soil water, waiting to interact with (and mess up) all sorts of critical reactions. Most plants have difficulty getting the chemical nutrients they need, in the proper amounts, when soil has too many hydrogen ions in the soil water solution.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some soils have a great ability to cope with these added H+ particles, as they have large amounts of natural "lime" to convert the H+ into water, or maybe they have lots of organic matter and clay to bind the H+, taking it (temporarily) out of the soil water solution. Other soils start with lower amounts of carbonates, clays or organic matter, so they have much lower capacity to "buffer" the H+ in the soil, and allow the H+ to build up in the soil water with much less acid forming fertilizer added. Once a soil has become acid, it has lost most of it's ability to bind or otherwise deactivate H+ particles, and is likely to become even more acid rapidly if relatively low amounts of H+ is added to the soil. So, the soil may remain at 7.2 for many years as tons of acid forming fertilizer is applied per acre, then, while you are not watching the pH, drop pH to 6, then 5 in a few years.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When a lab does a pH test of the soil, they are measuring the balance of hydrogen particles to "bases" in the soil solution. If there are more H+ particles than bases (-OH, which would taste sweet....) in the soil water, the soil is acid.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The pH number indicates a ratio of acid to base particles in the soil. The lower the number below 7 (neutral), the more acid the soil. Each pH number is in a multiple of 10. So a soil with a pH of 5 has 10 times as many free-floating H+ particles in the soil solution as a soil with a pH OF 6. Soil with a pH of 4 has 100 times the "acidity" of a soil with a pH of 6.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Most "native", uncropped soils in the desert areas of the Pacific Northwest USA have pH levels of about 7.2 to 7.5, indicating that they are somewhat alkaline (sweet) to strongly alkaline . The pH test does not show you how quickly the pH will drop with the addition of ammonium fertilizers. The native soil may have small or massive amounts of natural lime, and both situations are common. Any native soil with pH higher than 7.5, especially those in the 8+ range, are likely to have sodium or other harmful substances driving the pH higher than calcium carbonate alone would. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If there are massive amounts of lime and other bases in the soil, you have what people often call "alkaline", or "caleche" layered soil, which is difficult to manage. It is difficult or impossible to get all the lime out of this soil, and you will have to live with high pH, along with the drainage problems, iron deficiency, and compaction that are often production problems. If you have one of these soils, you should use the most acidifying forms of nitrogen fertilizer (such as ammonium sulfate), as you may never live long enough to develop an acidity problem. Some growers have helped the trees get critical soil nutrients, espcially iron, by banding strong acids along the row. This may force the pH down in a narrow, shallow zone along the soil surface, allowing more iron to enter the tree through shallow roots. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If your soil is normal, and has been in production for many years, it may already have become acid since it was broken out of the sagebrush. Since acidity is a chemical reaction, it occurs at the point where the ammonium nitrogen was applied through the years. If the fertilizer was banded and concentrated under the tree, that is where the pH will be lower. The pH is often much higher under the grass between the trees where less fertilizer has been applied. Since the H+ particles react to the soil near where the fertilizer was placed, the surface soil is most effected. The pH is often increasingly higher in the second and third foot than in the surface foot in the zone beneath trees, unless you have been treating the soil acidity with lime over the past several years.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So, it is a complicated question when you are asked, "what is the pH of your orchard soil?" The pH where? I have seen orchard soil that ranged from 4.2 in the top foot to 5.8 in the third foot directly under the tree, and 6.5 in the top foot to 7.2 in the second foot in the middle of the drive row. Under these circumstances, the trees roots contact many different pH's, which is likely to balance the trees needs a bit, compared to having the entire root zone in an unfavorable pH. However, since some substances, such as manganese and aluminum, are released in toxic levels from soils as they drop into pH's below about 5.5, it is best to treat your soil with lime to start the long process of bringing the soil acidity down and the pH up. Once you start adding lime, the top 6 - 12 inches of soil may have a much higher pH than the second and third foot. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As I mentioned earlier, lime reacts with the H+ in the soil solution to form water and carbon dioxide. A ton of lime will convert a lot of H+. Each ton of lime added can neutralize the H+ particles added by about 1110 pounds of ammonium nitrate or urea. So, depending on how much fertilizer you have applied each season, each ton of lime can compensate for about 4 to 20 years of fertilization with those acidifying products.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Most growers had built up quite a large "lime debt" by the 1980's, and needed to apply several tons to bring all their soil back to 6-7 pH. The lime was directed to those areas in the orchard where fertilizer has been applied, generally under the trees. Trees often responded visibly the first year of application, so other nutrients (especially N) were reduced after liming to avoid the effect of sudden release of nutrients and resulting unbalanced tree growth. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you have low pH in your orchard, you do not need to put the total required lime on all at once. Lime works best when it is mixed with the soil so it can come in contact with a large volume of the soil water. Since lime is not very soluble, it moves into the soil very slowly when applied to the soil surface. When you apply lime in the orchard, you are probably treating only the surface 4-8" for the first few years, so there is no hurry to get the total "lime debt" applied. We generally recommend that you apply two tons the first season of treatment, let a few seasons pass, then apply two tons more. You should then wait a few more years before re-testing and possibly re-applying more lime.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The best time to take care of liming is "between" orchards, as the block is replanted. Lime should be applied while you can still identify the old rows, so the application can be concentrated along the row, where the pH is lowest and the lime needs are highest. Ripping and discing the soil prior to planting will greatly speed the correction of pH in the block.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Do NOT over-lime! [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lime adjusts soil chemistry, it is not a fertilizer. A little too much can raise pH to undesirable levels and keep it there, causing serious management problems. Make certain you know how much lime is needed, then apply it over a number of seasons until your soil is back in balance.[/FONT]
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
he hasn't been feeding enough to mess up the pH. it would take a build up over time and his plants would be healthy and green first. Not showing just an obvious N deficiency.
still if you want to waste your time flushing then that is up to you. Things will get worse and then eventually the plant will get what she needs... not after unnecessarily suffering of course. Not good to do in flower.
still if you want to waste your time flushing then that is up to you. Things will get worse and then eventually the plant will get what she needs... not after unnecessarily suffering of course. Not good to do in flower.
trichlone fiend
New Member
9-59-8 is enough fertilizer for a long time...LOL...and a hell of alot of salts.
phenix white
Active Member
ok so i'll give it some of my veg fish emulsion 5-1-1 no bloom fert and a splash of iron /micro nutes??? my bloom has n in it higher than my fish emulsion though?!
phenix white
Active Member
in single feedings? im all confused ok i have given it 3 of my p bloom feed in a row. 3 feedings 4 days apart...but i giver it weakest, half weakest and now half a dose for next time but i'll hold off for a while..mayb i should waterfeed every other water fedding? whata you say?
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
it's just a ratio.
if i place 1ml into 5 gallons of water how much is it then?
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
You too seem to be confusing ratios with concentrations.
Use that nutrient you have 5-1-1 and giver her a good dosage.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
Indeed you could use both nutrients in unison during flower. it's a lot of P though, quite unnecessary... plants like a lot of K, not P. P increases during flower but not that much, and the nitrogen increases too.
rzza
Well-Known Member
Nitrogen: Entire plant is light green in color; lower leaves are yellow; growth is stunted....
Phosphorous: Entire plant is bluish-green, often developing a red or purpleish cast; lower leaves may be yellow, drying to a greenish-brown to black color; growth may be stunted...
Potassium: Leaves have a papery appearance; dead areas along the edges of leaves; growth is stunted...
Magnesium: Lower leaves turn yellow along the tips and margin and between the veins; the lower leaves wilt...
Calcium: Young stems and new leaves die...
Zinc: Leaf tissue between the veins is lighter in color; yellowed; papery in appearance...
Iron: Leaf tissue appears yellow, while the veins remain green...
Copper: Leaf edges appear dark green or blue; leaf edges curl upward; young leaves permanently wilt...
Sulfur: Young leaves turn pale green, while the older leaves remain green; plant is stunted and spindly...
Mananese: Growth is stunted; lower leaves have a checkered pattern of yellow and green...
Molybdenum: Leaves are stunted, pale green, and malformed...
Boron: Young leaves are scorched at tips and margins...
phenix white
Active Member
i hate that dam thing above! because every single thing hAS YELLOWING OF LEAVES!
rzza
Well-Known Member
but hes prob adding like 100ml per five gallons and its alot.
phenix white
Active Member
i veg'd with fish emulsion/organic soil/bonemeal 6-9-0.. ok now shes id say2 weeks 2 days into 12/12..budding good.but the recent intense yellowing happend within the last week..the last 3 days worsend spread...when i switched to flower nutes it was 1-2 days after 12/12 was engaged...ok i started using ferti-lome bloom and root w the high 59- P..i started off lite it says use 1 teaspoon per gallon water...so i gave it 3 times less than that..then 2 times less. i havent waterd her with the 3rd dose yet! ok..now i started the molasses with the flowering as well. i cut out the fish emulsion beacuse of all the mixed crossed and every one does it diffrent sceniro it's made it nearly impossible with what exactly needs to be done..Now with this info does this clear up some things?..also my P bloom food has N in it 9 59-8 is the NPK..so how is it not gettin N?
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
he actually said he's been very cautious... as he has no doubt through the entire grow.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
It's not getting enough N because the ratio of the P is so high you're afraid to feed it. so you're using less.
phenix white
Active Member
that sounds logical..hell i just checked all my PH waters they were all between 6.3-6.8