Is this supposed to be like this?

Jimi O'Connor

Active Member
So I'm at week 8 of flowering. Idk if its really week 8 of flowering technically, I had what I'm assuming was lockout. So stunted growth i think, and call me crazy but the buds just seem smaller then they should be.

So under the plants are still all green for the most part, the top of the plants are having some yellowing. I've been having a hell of a time figuring whats going on. Can it be the plants are still recovering from the lockout? I was wondering if the light was to close but I have a app on my phone with the Uni-T meter and according to that the lights in a ok spot.

For the record I'm running a 3x3 ac infinity tent with 3 plants, 2 death star plants and a godfather og. There in 5 gal cloth pots, filled with happy frog soil and I've been feeding them floranova grow and bloom with cal mag and recharge. The light is ac infinity s33 ionboard light, 240 watts according to the ac infinity website.

Also are my clip fans pointing far enough away from the buds or however they should be?

So any helpful tips are appreciated
 

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I ran into the same thing on a couple of plants my last grow. I didn’t get them to recover so I would like to hear what people say to help. Make sure none of the leaves die back into the bud. What is your temps and humidity levels?
 
The yellowing can be from being root bound or not enough nutrients. What is your EC and Ph? I'm at 1.2 EC and 6.2 Ph. Have you checked your runoff? Are you hand watering DTW? How often? I'm doing every three days by hand. I don't check my runoff unless there's problems. I'm in five gallons too. I am not doing the SCROG though. Looks pretty good. Maybe bigger grow bags next time. Since they are indica, they could just be finishing up and need more P and K.
 
So I'm at week 8 of flowering. Idk if its really week 8 of flowering technically, I had what I'm assuming was lockout. So stunted growth i think, and call me crazy but the buds just seem smaller then they should be.

So under the plants are still all green for the most part, the top of the plants are having some yellowing. I've been having a hell of a time figuring whats going on. Can it be the plants are still recovering from the lockout? I was wondering if the light was to close but I have a app on my phone with the Uni-T meter and according to that the lights in a ok spot.

For the record I'm running a 3x3 ac infinity tent with 3 plants, 2 death star plants and a godfather og. There in 5 gal cloth pots, filled with happy frog soil and I've been feeding them floranova grow and bloom with cal mag and recharge. The light is ac infinity s33 ionboard light, 240 watts according to the ac infinity website.

Also are my clip fans pointing far enough away from the buds or however they should be?

So any helpful tips are appreciated
I don't think that your plants are in the "small" category. They look like they're growing well-good bud structure, lots of foliage, etc.

What readings are you getting from your Uni-T?
 
I ran into the same thing on a couple of plants my last grow. I didn’t get them to recover so I would like to hear what people say to help. Make sure none of the leaves die back into the bud. What is your temps and humidity levels?
Here's a screen shot of the ac infinity apps graph, last month temp RH% and VPD
 

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The yellowing can be from being root bound or not enough nutrients. What is your EC and Ph? I'm at 1.2 EC and 6.2 Ph. Have you checked your runoff? Are you hand watering DTW? How often? I'm doing every three days by hand. I don't check my runoff unless there's problems. I'm in five gallons too. I am not doing the SCROG though. Looks pretty good. Maybe bigger grow bags next time. Since they are indica, they could just be finishing up and need more P and K.
Unfortunately I used the scrogg method this time so it was really hard to get the runoff because I cant take the plants out of the small 3x3 tent. I have ac infinity cloth pot trays to catch the runoff but its to hard to get the runoff I've found out Unfortunately.

Next round I won't be using the cloth pot trays.

I also broke my clavicle in my shoulder so it's very impossible to do much of anything right now
 
PPFD METER in the app store and the Uni-T does the work no need to adjust anything
Got it. The PPFD meter is converting lux to PPFD for you.

800-1k is textbook "light saturation point" for cannabis. You must be running that light at/close to 100% but the light doesn't have a great PPFD map. It's got a lot of light in the center but the light levels fall of pretty quickly as you move off center. That's just how board lights work. Well, the vast majority of them, anyway.

The light you're using is 240 watts and the grow area is 9 square feet. That works out to <27 watts/ square foot. Input wattage is not an indicator of how much light a grow light will generate but it is close enough to be a good guide. And 27 watts per square foot is on the low side. If you're looking for more growth, you'll have to bring more light.

1753131140175.png

The S33 is a board light and, like all board lights, has a "hot spot" in the center of the PPFD map. Regardless of the hang height, there is a dramatic PPFD fall off when you move off center. In the 14" PPFD map, for example, the 18" square area in the center has a PPFD of ~1300µmol. That's too high to be usable in ambient CO2, so growers will drop the input wattage. If the input wattage drops to 70%, the center are of the light is generating ~ 920µmol (most growers don't give their plants that much light but I'm using this as an example). When the input wattage is reduced to 70%, the PPFD for the grow area around the periphery is likewise reduced. In this case, the 920µmol in the center area how has a band of PPFD's around the edges will be about the values in this table:

1753131210581.png

In short, you've got good light in the 4 center squares but the other 12 squares are averaging only 569 and, if you knock out the two spots that are >1000µmol, the average is only 534µmol.

And that's the best case because the PPFD map that AC Infinity uses is not "industry standard". They're using a 9" grid (most sites use a 6" grid) and the larger grid will tend to increase the values.

I uploaded the spectrum chart for this light to Grok and asked it to do a spectral analysis. Per the values below, the light has quite a bit of blue in the spectrum. Blue photons keep plants short and bushy and plants will tend to have a lot of leaves and lots of branches. That's what I see in the pictures that you've posted.

Wavelength RangeApproximate Percentage (%)
Blue (400nm-500nm)30-35%
Yellow-Green (500nm-600nm)25-30%
Red (600nm-700nm)35-40%
Far-Red (700nm-880nm)5-10%

My belief is that the reason that you're seeing smaller buds is because of the high percentage of blue in the spectrum and because of the limited amount of light that the S33 puts out (except in the center). It's a fact that blue photons decrease internodal space and that's one reason why buds "stack". But the reason that they didn't stack is that there is an unusually high percentage of blue but, more important, there simply wasn't enough light hitting the canopy to get the desired growth.

There is a simple remedy—add more light and add more red light.

Last summer, I spent some time looking for a replacement for my Growcraft X3 flower light. It was an excellent light in its day but it was designed in 2019 and I was hoping to find a newer light that would have a better PPFD map. After a couple of weeks of searching, I gave up. Even though it's an old design, it was a very good product and there was (and still is) nothing that I can find to replace it in the 2' x 4' market.

Though it's not as pronounced as the S33, the X3 generates 1300µmol in the center and >1200 just outside that but if I turn down the dimmer so that PPFD is 1k in the center, there's a 1' strip on either end of the grow area where light levels will be pretty low.

1753132180890.png

A grower on another forum suggested that I look into supplemental lighting and that turned out to be the solution.

I ended getting a pair of Spider Farmer GlowR80 lights. They're 40 watts each and, at 12" hang height, they add about 290µmol of 660nm red light. That was a significant improvement. It smoothed out the PPFD map, allowed me to reduce the input wattage to my Growcraft by 150 watts, and I ended with more red photons (better growth) at an ambient temperature that is 2° lower than it was with the Growcraft.

The big win that you'll get is that you'll get a more even PPFD map, so you'll get a more even light cast across the entire grow area and, second, since it's 660nm light, you'll be able to reduce the % of blue light in the spectrum. I've attached a paper from Bugbee et al re. the impact of blue light on yield.

I have no affiliation with Spider except as a customer.

[time passes]

I spent some quality time with Grok and I think that change will do very well for you. The link to the analysis is here.
 

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Unfortunately I used the scrogg method this time so it was really hard to get the runoff because I cant take the plants out of the small 3x3 tent. I have ac infinity cloth pot trays to catch the runoff but its to hard to get the runoff I've found out Unfortunately.
In a SCROG the plants grow up into the net and are then woven across the net as the branches grow. In the photos you've posted, it looks like the plants are being supported by the trellis.

The bottom line, though, is that you've got a great looking grow but your plants didn't get much light and they got too much blue light.

Next round I won't be using the cloth pot trays.

I also broke my clavicle in my shoulder so it's very impossible to do much of anything right now
Oh, that just sucks. I'm really sorry to hear that. I've had a heart attack, kidney stones (twice), and broken or torn a fair number of parts of my body but I'm really thankful I never broken a clavicle.

On the bright side, at least you've got access to "herbal refreshment" to deal with the pain.
 
Depends on what stage veg? Flower? Right now there between 800 to 1k around there
Yield is maximized by getting as much light on the plant as soon as possible. It's conventional wisdom to run "300 in seedling, 300-600 in veg, and 600+ in flower", but that will not allow a cannabis plant to reach its genetic potential.

I categorize those light levels as "legacy light levels" and there's no question that a grower can get a good crop following those guidelines. Similarly, there's no question that cannabis will thrive at light levels far higher than those values cited. My approach is to get plants to 1kµmol as soon as possible. I hit that mark at week 5-6 and, no surprise, significantly exceed seed sellers estimates.

Cannabis is an absolute light whore thrives under high light.
 
Got it. The PPFD meter is converting lux to PPFD for you.

800-1k is textbook "light saturation point" for cannabis. You must be running that light at/close to 100% but the light doesn't have a great PPFD map. It's got a lot of light in the center but the light levels fall of pretty quickly as you move off center. That's just how board lights work. Well, the vast majority of them, anyway.

The light you're using is 240 watts and the grow area is 9 square feet. That works out to <27 watts/ square foot. Input wattage is not an indicator of how much light a grow light will generate but it is close enough to be a good guide. And 27 watts per square foot is on the low side. If you're looking for more growth, you'll have to bring more light.

View attachment 5474321

The S33 is a board light and, like all board lights, has a "hot spot" in the center of the PPFD map. Regardless of the hang height, there is a dramatic PPFD fall off when you move off center. In the 14" PPFD map, for example, the 18" square area in the center has a PPFD of ~1300µmol. That's too high to be usable in ambient CO2, so growers will drop the input wattage. If the input wattage drops to 70%, the center are of the light is generating ~ 920µmol (most growers don't give their plants that much light but I'm using this as an example). When the input wattage is reduced to 70%, the PPFD for the grow area around the periphery is likewise reduced. In this case, the 920µmol in the center area how has a band of PPFD's around the edges will be about the values in this table:

View attachment 5474322

In short, you've got good light in the 4 center squares but the other 12 squares are averaging only 569 and, if you knock out the two spots that are >1000µmol, the average is only 534µmol.

And that's the best case because the PPFD map that AC Infinity uses is not "industry standard". They're using a 9" grid (most sites use a 6" grid) and the larger grid will tend to increase the values.

I uploaded the spectrum chart for this light to Grok and asked it to do a spectral analysis. Per the values below, the light has quite a bit of blue in the spectrum. Blue photons keep plants short and bushy and plants will tend to have a lot of leaves and lots of branches. That's what I see in the pictures that you've posted.


Wavelength RangeApproximate Percentage (%)
Blue (400nm-500nm)30-35%
Yellow-Green (500nm-600nm)25-30%
Red (600nm-700nm)35-40%
Far-Red (700nm-880nm)5-10%

My belief is that the reason that you're seeing smaller buds is because of the high percentage of blue in the spectrum and because of the limited amount of light that the S33 puts out (except in the center). It's a fact that blue photons decrease internodal space and that's one reason why buds "stack". But the reason that they didn't stack is that there is an unusually high percentage of blue but, more important, there simply wasn't enough light hitting the canopy to get the desired growth.

There is a simple remedy—add more light and add more red light.

Last summer, I spent some time looking for a replacement for my Growcraft X3 flower light. It was an excellent light in its day but it was designed in 2019 and I was hoping to find a newer light that would have a better PPFD map. After a couple of weeks of searching, I gave up. Even though it's an old design, it was a very good product and there was (and still is) nothing that I can find to replace it in the 2' x 4' market.

Though it's not as pronounced as the S33, the X3 generates 1300µmol in the center and >1200 just outside that but if I turn down the dimmer so that PPFD is 1k in the center, there's a 1' strip on either end of the grow area where light levels will be pretty low.

View attachment 5474323

A grower on another forum suggested that I look into supplemental lighting and that turned out to be the solution.

I ended getting a pair of Spider Farmer GlowR80 lights. They're 40 watts each and, at 12" hang height, they add about 290µmol of 660nm red light. That was a significant improvement. It smoothed out the PPFD map, allowed me to reduce the input wattage to my Growcraft by 150 watts, and I ended with more red photons (better growth) at an ambient temperature that is 2° lower than it was with the Growcraft.

The big win that you'll get is that you'll get a more even PPFD map, so you'll get a more even light cast across the entire grow area and, second, since it's 660nm light, you'll be able to reduce the % of blue light in the spectrum. I've attached a paper from Bugbee et al re. the impact of blue light on yield.

I have no affiliation with Spider except as a customer.

[time passes]

I spent some quality time with Grok and I think that change will do very well for you. The link to the analysis is here.
Hi the glow r80s aren't available in the convict settlememts yet you can buy them from spiderfarmer but alas they are very expensive with our au to us conversion rate. I'll be investing in some when I can. Tell me how long are you running the glow r80s during the light cycle? Very keen to hear how they are going for ya. God speed when things are more affordable I'll be ordering a set when the next tall ships be setting sail for ye old terra Australis lol
 
Hi the glow r80s aren't available in the convict settlememts yet you can buy them from spiderfarmer but alas they are very expensive with our au to us conversion rate.
"convict settlements"— got a kick out of that.

Spider has confused the issue by having two types of lights under the "R80" name. One is a pure 660nm light, the other is a full spectrum. My posting discusses the 660 light but there can be an argument for using the full spectrum light in some cases.

I'll be investing in some when I can. Tell me how long are you running the glow r80s during the light cycle? Very keen to hear how they are going for ya.
I ran the R80's in flower because that's when I first got them. They're powered on and off with the main light. My goal was to increase the % of red in the spectrum and to even out the PPFD map and it worked out well. The result was that I reduced my electricity cost and I was able to drop my tent temperature by 2°.

They will be part of my lighting set up from now on.

God speed when things are more affordable I'll be ordering a set when the next tall ships be setting sail for ye old terra Australis lol
If the Trade Winds are hold up, it could be just a few more weeks! ;-)
 
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