yellowrain53
Well-Known Member
i havent done PH in years. i usually water with tap (PH=8.5) and my ladies LOVE it......starter to finish. i stopped PH ing when i realized that (atleast here in hawaii).....it doesnt matter.
Stop blaming "issues" on pH people! aka "ah cant take no mo'!
- Thread starter Uncle Ben
- Start date
Kriegs
Well-Known Member
I didn't really think so either. The answer lies in a simple natural law that governs all mineral-water interactions. All mineral solubility is governed by an "equilibrium constant". When a solution approaches that constant, it's "saturated" - the water cannot dissolve any more. There's a pH associated with that point. For a PURE dolomite-water solution, that pH is 8.2. For pure calcium carbonate, it's 8.4.
Impurities (like the zillions of compounds in soil) force that constant and pH associated with it downward, as they interfere with how much of the mineral can be in solution.
So, you could mix a "soil" that's 80-90% dolomite (I didn't say you should..), and it would still likely be in a suitable pH range for MJ and most plants due to the interference of the soil fraction. I think the typical person would think the pH would just "go over the top" by adding that much "base" to a soil.
The whole point of the thing is that acid-base and mineral relationships are very complicated and governed by a host of competing factors. The thinking that you somehow really change your grow condition by adding water of pH of 5.0 or 8.0 instead of 6.5 is really silly, once you understand the underlying mechanics.
aeviaanah
Well-Known Member
UB, ive read through this thread a bit and i came across the idea of someone rigging up a system to collect rainwater off the roof. Is there a problem with a standard shingled roof?
I initially thought of just putting 5 gallon buckets out but using the roof and downspouts would collect rain water alot faster being there is more surface area. Would there be something sitting in the gutters or possibly chemicals on roof etc etc that would harm plants?
I initially thought of just putting 5 gallon buckets out but using the roof and downspouts would collect rain water alot faster being there is more surface area. Would there be something sitting in the gutters or possibly chemicals on roof etc etc that would harm plants?
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
figtree
Active Member
PH is very important. might not be the cause of every issue on here, but it is pretty common to have issues with it. I'm sure you know that certain nutes can only be accessed by the plants at a certain PH. also i think some blame PH when its actually a PPM issue, but a flush takes care of both.
I feel ya tho with the "PH is the fixall" for every issue...... although once i started controlling my ph my plants have never been so healthy.
I check the ph of every drop of water/nutes i give my plants because i have had a ph issue destroy my crop in the past.
I feel ya tho with the "PH is the fixall" for every issue...... although once i started controlling my ph my plants have never been so healthy.
I check the ph of every drop of water/nutes i give my plants because i have had a ph issue destroy my crop in the past.
hydroalltheway
Member
So i just bought a new ppm/ec meter and it has two different ppm readings on either side of it. Which side do i read? Heres a pic
Attachments
yellowrain53
Well-Known Member
like i said PH 7.5-8.5........no problems. maybe its the high volcanic material content of the water/soil here......i dont know. all i know is itsokay.
ph0n3
Member
Try to get to know the EC and CF values. The PPM is just a conversion of these values and is different depending where you are.
If I remember correctly if your in US u should use the PPM x 500 value.
Here is the link:
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/11724-gets-worse-nutrient-tester-manufacturers.html
Kriegs
Well-Known Member
Most soils, especially tropical soils, are loaded with "acid buffers" -- compounds in soil that don't necessarily cause acidity in the soil... but, when you put bases in (like your pH 8.0 water), these buffers break off the soil, and neutralize the pH.
HI is built on a mountain of basalt, a basic rock. However, thousands of years of heavy rainfall in tropical areas strip these bases out, and the accumulating organic material is heavy in acid buffers (just like 99% of commercial potting soils, including the vaunted Foxfarm line).
aeviaanah
Well-Known Member
ok, i have composite shingles on my roof. you say in this post to do it right you need a tin roof. does this mean you are saying i would be collecting rain water wrong if i dont have a tin roof? please clarify.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I have asphalt shingles and collect rainwater all the time with no problem, but then again I'm not storing it in huge tanks. I don't start collecting until the rain has rinsed off the roof well.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I don't have a downspout. I just collect it off a roof valley in 5 gallon buckets.
sir rance alot
Active Member
if ph is ok...what can be done for extremely high tds..
with ecoplus meters, my tap water reads 8.4 ph and over 700 ppm
even with half doses of nutes, my ph is only 7.4 but my ppm is out of range for the meter and that goes to 1900 so its over that at the least.
would rain water help or hurt my situation.....
with ecoplus meters, my tap water reads 8.4 ph and over 700 ppm
even with half doses of nutes, my ph is only 7.4 but my ppm is out of range for the meter and that goes to 1900 so its over that at the least.
would rain water help or hurt my situation.....
hydroalltheway
Member
would rain water help or hurt my situation.....[/QUOTE]
Rain water is good to use it has a much lower PH
Rain water is good to use it has a much lower PH
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
R/O or rainwater. 50/50 would be fine.
That is a really nasty TDS? Are you sure that reading is accurate? Your water source must be high in carbonates and/or bicarbs?
CLOSETGROWTH
Well-Known Member
Then it's the old "add epsom salts"....another forum paradigm that won't go away. Most folks only want to help and that's OK, but you can actually do more harm than good if the grower takes advice that is not correct.
Hahahahaaa.. I feel the same way about epsom Salts.. too funny!
Hahahahaaa.. I feel the same way about epsom Salts.. too funny!
Kriegs
Well-Known Member
Hey, UB... keep up the great work. Your threads are all in my subscription list, and the first places I go to enjoy some good info and debate. This seemed to be the best place to put my latest spiel..
For various reasons, I've been involved in an off-and-on study of humic acids, composting, and the fundamental nature of "potting soil", all in my spare time of course. As most growers SHOULD know, "potting soils" are about 98% composted wood and sphagnum peat by weight and volume. The other 2% is little bits of this or that, depending whatever marketing tack the manufacturer wants to deploy to sell their bags of rotten wood (ie.. this has "special kelp", mycorrhizal inoculants, or "feeds for 3 months" or whatever).
I got into it because of being repeatedly flamed for using tap water at pH 8.0 without adjusting it down. Why do I do this without a care? Well, the breakdown of natural organic matter creates large amounts of humic substances. "Humic substances" is a HUGE catch-all category of material -- some is fully soluble and easily washed out, some hangs on the soil like a film, other humics hang together in a matrix that agglomerates or separates depending on what is going on around it. Generally, these humic films separate and kick off little bits of organic acid when exposed to alkaline material, like my water. Ergo, I would bet a buck-two-fifty that yes, my water hits the soil surface at 8.0 and by about 1 or 2mm down, is neutralized to 7.0 My plants NEVER see water at 8.0.
So anyway, I just wanted to re-up my humics understanding to be sure of my approach, and then thought it could be useful to others if for no other reason than to eliminate unnecessary steps and stress, and focus on what counts.
Now, there's a helluva world underneath those little tidbits. Here's an article with some insight to it, and how it relates to commercial compost and soil production:
http://jeq.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/37/4/1608
You don't have to be that great of a scientist to understand it, as dense as it is with references and procedures. The simple output is that commerical soil producers have honed in on the fact that the most beneficial humics are created early in the composting process, and longer and now-outdated composting processes actually strip out beneficial humics. The longer processes may make a "nicer looking" soil, but it has less function to plants as it provides less active and available humics, and more refractory material.
Bottom line: commercial potting soils have a lot of humics, and do not need any assistance with acid buffering (which is what you're doing essentially, when you add vinegar to your water... trying to help your soil do a job it's already well-equipped to do).
One of the primary characteristics of humic substances is an abundant mix of readily available and slow-release carboxylic acids (a multitude of organic acids all carrying the COOH group, including acetic acid.. AKA vinegar). Check this for basic COOH info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboxylic_acid
So, why aren't potting soils a highly acid intolerable environment for MJ? Because these materials only dissociate into acids in the presence of un-neutralized bases. Otherwise, they remain grouped up and essentially neutral.
Enjoy...
For various reasons, I've been involved in an off-and-on study of humic acids, composting, and the fundamental nature of "potting soil", all in my spare time of course. As most growers SHOULD know, "potting soils" are about 98% composted wood and sphagnum peat by weight and volume. The other 2% is little bits of this or that, depending whatever marketing tack the manufacturer wants to deploy to sell their bags of rotten wood (ie.. this has "special kelp", mycorrhizal inoculants, or "feeds for 3 months" or whatever).
I got into it because of being repeatedly flamed for using tap water at pH 8.0 without adjusting it down. Why do I do this without a care? Well, the breakdown of natural organic matter creates large amounts of humic substances. "Humic substances" is a HUGE catch-all category of material -- some is fully soluble and easily washed out, some hangs on the soil like a film, other humics hang together in a matrix that agglomerates or separates depending on what is going on around it. Generally, these humic films separate and kick off little bits of organic acid when exposed to alkaline material, like my water. Ergo, I would bet a buck-two-fifty that yes, my water hits the soil surface at 8.0 and by about 1 or 2mm down, is neutralized to 7.0 My plants NEVER see water at 8.0.
So anyway, I just wanted to re-up my humics understanding to be sure of my approach, and then thought it could be useful to others if for no other reason than to eliminate unnecessary steps and stress, and focus on what counts.
Now, there's a helluva world underneath those little tidbits. Here's an article with some insight to it, and how it relates to commercial compost and soil production:
http://jeq.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/37/4/1608
You don't have to be that great of a scientist to understand it, as dense as it is with references and procedures. The simple output is that commerical soil producers have honed in on the fact that the most beneficial humics are created early in the composting process, and longer and now-outdated composting processes actually strip out beneficial humics. The longer processes may make a "nicer looking" soil, but it has less function to plants as it provides less active and available humics, and more refractory material.
Bottom line: commercial potting soils have a lot of humics, and do not need any assistance with acid buffering (which is what you're doing essentially, when you add vinegar to your water... trying to help your soil do a job it's already well-equipped to do).
One of the primary characteristics of humic substances is an abundant mix of readily available and slow-release carboxylic acids (a multitude of organic acids all carrying the COOH group, including acetic acid.. AKA vinegar). Check this for basic COOH info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboxylic_acid
So, why aren't potting soils a highly acid intolerable environment for MJ? Because these materials only dissociate into acids in the presence of un-neutralized bases. Otherwise, they remain grouped up and essentially neutral.
Enjoy...
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Such fun, eh!
Folks that do the pH adjusting drills regarding regular potting soils don't know what they are talking about. As I constantly say, soil is a powerful buffer. Do an experiment like I have - run water adjusted to a pH of say.....5.5 thru one pot and 9.0 in another pot, of the same potting material of course. Test the latent runoff, the stuff that barely drips out the drainholes after sitting there for 15 minutes. You'll find the pH value drifting back close to the original pH value of the soil.
I know of no bearing humates have on pH values other than stuff like peat moss which has a very high amount of humates, the acids. Of course those are organic acids and subject to microbial action.
Yep, but if it isn't complex and confusing, what good is it?
Speaking of confusing lol. I do know that certain addtions will impart a pH change either short term or long term, like peat, urea, bone meal, ashes, lime, etc.
All in all, it looks like you're having too much fun.
Keep up the good work,
Tio
wyteboi
Well-Known Member
This is a fuckin nice post.
i cannot explain things with big words like this so i'll just link um to this post.
Thanks kriegs!