Long Term Mother Care

[medidedicated]

Genetic preservation centric thread. Tips, tricks and discussion.

I run mothers perpetual clone grow 100% extracts. I noticed yield cut in half from poor practices. I had a feeling I needed to learn about this but neglected.

Read a bunch of stuff to see how vast the topic is. Thats probably why but sometimes got to risk things and lose things to know you need to invest. That this isnt for no reason.

I do dtw coco so I read keeping a plant small in small pots to signal to stay small.. Isnt an issue but rootbound stress is. So start in small pot and cut bottom off a fat 1/4. Then up pot and repeat every few months or little more.

Then reselect mother and start again with new clone. Recommends yearly. I am reselecting mother on my first keeper for practice. So keep copies of each plant and keep the best. I have a way to do the up potting I mentioned but with bonsai plants, probably clones.

Sterile!! Buy as many dedicated tools to cut the plant, have several of each and use a clean one on each plant. Sheers, knifes.. I wouldnt re use razor blades to save a penny, just buy a ton. Their cheap.

Keep it on a sleep cycle so the plant doesnt get fatigued or hormone confused, it needs a rest cycle. That might help with stress reduction when taking cuts. Preserve genetics.

So Im foggy on the part about epigenitics. How some can turn on and off due to stress but taking a cut resets that. However some can become so surpressed that it cant be retrieved. I took clones off the worst one for 2-3 generations and might be stuck with that.

So Im reselecting mother culling the obvious bad and keep the best. Then back to square one. It only took 2 yrs to get to this point but the idea of thread is to learn how to keep 20 plus year old mothers. So what are some things I might of missed here..?

Some traits just dont get damaged easy so you just wouldnt think anything was wrong. Being extracts only I feel like I dont get paid for my work because I literally dont. So its important front and center now.

 

[medidedicated]

Here we have a mom. My Watermelon Ultra. This one was increadibly stunted as clone. Very yellow and messed up and refused to grow for two whole grow cycles until it was flippable. So for sure dont take cuts from this. Its a perfect example of what Im talking about tho.

Look at the tight rootbinding. The salt build up. Some algae. I read it needs be flushed and believed it as I always get this. I thought I could keep a mom but had lots to learn. Shes a beaut tho she outgrew a lot of stunt.

This where I would keep my moms, got space for 3 now bit could squeeze 4. The condensate bucket is there tho would need to move to middle. So they got a good 1.5x1.5’ each. Cool basement 60-70F in tents and 50-70rh 60 average. Dim lighting analog almost at off position literally before it turns off.

 

[medidedicated]

This where my copies would sit. Nursery pot to up pot in bigger one then a final one if needed. Should give me 6 months if needed but 4 months for sure.

Why that long? Well Im pheno hunting so might need a hub for them while I test them all the way to harvest. To keep the flow going Il still have to finish running the next round already going.

Idk but it can do it if needed. One things for sure it will help with space. I can set a tray of them or two aside in a open spot in mother tent or perpetual veg tent while seedlings start here.

This is for IPM or else gnats and aphids will take over. Thats also what potentially hurt my genetics. I staple fabric pot shut around stem/dripper then bug jell the seams.

I put garbage bags around the pots for production plants as flower room temp and rh dries back crazy. So it slows dryback and extra IPM. I use box fans above bar lights for circulation even for veg.

So might use bags on those too or well, should wtf am I saying. Thats strong IPM game and where Id for sure want it. But the rootbinding will lead to needing flower like treatment. I feed 3x a day veg but might be able to decrease if to use bags.

Id be using larger pots for the big moms. I dont want them stressed being too small constant pruning. The veg hub will likely be like that already but just trying to work on my veg game. I havent had moms for some time just did clones of clones which I highly do not recommend.

 

[weedstoner420]

Are you talking about cloning and starting a new nother plant every year or so? Or keeping a single mother plant alive for multiple years? If you're actually trying to keep a mom alive for multiple years, frequent pruning is gonna be key, including the roots. I know I've shared this guide a bunch of times before, but it's just so good - https://overgrow.com/t/bonsai-mums-by-oldtimer1/1433

Edit: that article describes growing in organic potting soil (they call it compost in the UK). It could probably be done just as well in dtw coco (a member here was doing bonsai moms in rockwool blocks for a while), but I think the organic route is probably easier. For mine I just use regular organic potting soil from a bag and give them some liquid fish and kelp fertilizer every 2 weeks, and plain water in between.

 

[medidedicated]

Which ever is least damaging to genetics long term. I was reading to replace with a new cutting I forget why I will mention it when i dive into it again. It related to genetics and how I depend on it to work being extracts only.

I hope I didnt jump to conclusion and that it can simply produce just half the hash. This harvest will be interesting, I got the copies of each cut and will keep the best and run it a few times at least. That will tell me more about this and can entertain the convo further.

I tend to go off data in my grow. I havent always been this dialed in but soon as I started realizing how to get maximum yield it started to plummit.

 

[medidedicated]

So I started out at 12% machine trim then realized hand trimmig does 20%. Now Im back to 12%. So if I machine trimmed I probably would get less than I EVER got from her on that run. I was at 20% then teetered down 17% then 15% and now 12%.

It went back to 17% on one clone but that was probably the last good one slowly being purged away. Last clone was 13.4% and was the source for all the cuts I have now. Its like my results depended on which clone I took from at some point and just barely did a reselection on time or too late already.

This harvest and onward will bring more data so I can say substantially more to whats going on.

 

[hostagecs]

im gunna be real, i wish i had the room to have a mother, i would def be on the look out for a strong graft main mother and go into the weeds on that

 

[medidedicated]

Ive thought about grafting but its a lot of hard work just to potentially have to start over. Im seeing not all strains like the same nutrient concentration too so I dont think all can be grafted.

 

[medidedicated]

I think it occoured to me just thinkin about it. It was overnight at the time but thinking about it this morning.. Its about genetic baggage that can eventually turn permenant so youre reseting that internal log sheet. As they get old like my pic its not even two grow cycles old and is rough.

Being dtw coco idk if keeping them over a year is good. I have considered soil but Im no good with it its too big a learning curve and investing this far in. I barely got time to dig into stuff and try to only with whats relevent to me at the time. When I go hard into something things get achieved tho.

Kinda like how I delayed making a proper dry space but made it work with all my focus on it. Thats if I have time and figure it out tho soil Id need to invest a lot.

 

[medidedicated]

I scanned the overgrow thread just looking for things relevant to what Im after. It just seems like a rough handling of a mother and bonsai it. I aim to be more gentle and calculated, let it grow out and prune back to repeat. Take cuts when it bounces back. Root prne more gentle doing Bushy Old Growers method just stacking pots. Not just pruning back a tiny rootball.

But do aim to slice up roots similarly. I guess whats so new to me is back tracking and running clones to decide what to do with them. Its a invisible process otherwise any clone looks fine but its inside it genetically that Im worried about. Ive had 4 moms in a square foot cabinet so Ive bonsaied and root pruned etc.

Im aiming to give them 1.5’x1.5’ each in a 3x3 four total. One spot will be a tray of mini clones to reselect or pheno hunt. 3 full size moms for sure tho. Let them grow out more and have more space, I have had PM that infact probably started in the cabinet. They need good space and got boxfans blowing at them from above through bar lights.

 

[MissinThe90’sStrains]

I take cuts and then flower the “old” moms. The cuts get nursed in 1 gallon pots, managed and pruned until they start to get rootbound, and then moved up to 2 gallon pots. I try to take new cuts while they’re healthy and growing, before pruning back again and before they get rootbound again. The Saints Crossing pheno in my journal I found in 2020 or 2021. I keep her in soil, currently on a 2 gal pot. Potency and terps are still solid. I just took some fresh cuts for a friend last week.

 

[medidedicated]

Yea I scanned overgrow thread again it doesnt touch on the issues Im having. Heres what I been reading, things like this. Could say its bull but why am I having these issues then?

Most people think their stuff is fine but if you relied on 100% extracts or you lose out on it, maybe this speaks to you. My bud looks, smells fine etc but when you press the whole plant it tells a new story.

Its the only thing explaining whats happening. This harvest will explain more.

 

[weedstoner420]

Yea I scanned overgrow thread again it doesnt touch on the issues Im having. Heres what I been reading, things like this. Could say its bull but why am I having these issues then?

Most people think their stuff is fine but if you relied on 100% extracts or you lose out on it, maybe this speaks to you. My bud looks, smells fine etc but when you press the whole plant it tells a new story.

Its the only thing explaining whats happening. This harvest will explain more.
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Yeah it definitely seems like minimizing sources of stress is the best way to keep a plant vigorous and productive in the long-term.

I guess one question is whether it's less stressful (for the plant) to keep a single individual alive for a long time and continually prune it back (bonsai style), or to take clones and start a "fresh" mother on a somewhat regular basis.

Another question would be whether any negative epigenetic changes can be "reversed" if the plant is returned to a non-stressful environment (whether it be the original individual or a clone several generations down the road). Like do they only ever trend towards being less vigorous/productive, or can an old mom be brought back to its original state of vigor and productivity simply by taking good care of her for a while?

 

[medidedicated]

Yeah it definitely seems like minimizing sources of stress is the best way to keep a plant vigorous and productive in the long-term.

I guess one question is whether it's less stressful (for the plant) to keep a single individual alive for a long time and continually prune it back (bonsai style), or to take clones and start a "fresh" mother on a somewhat regular basis.

Another question would be whether any negative epigenetic changes can be "reversed" if the plant is returned to a non-stressful environment (whether it be the original individual or a clone several generations down the road). Like do they only ever trend towards being less vigorous/productive, or can an old mom be brought back to its original state of vigor and productivity simply by taking good care of her for a while?

Yea thats basically the heart of this thread. Those are the core questions I have, you can only ask AI so much but its not a grower that could have something else to say. As far as I can ask it, there is a point of no return. People say now and then that they lost their pheno and wondered what they meant.

It could simply be a trait. Mine is hash production and is a important trait being hash only. So if I lost that, I lost my pheno. Other traits are harder to lose like vigor and smell, visuals. It looks fine but my jaw drops to find it can just be subpar. Id think this applies to smoking, I always found the hashier buds to get me higher I just didnt know at the time.

Id aim for somewhere in the middle, keeping it as long possible while replacing it yearly with a careful reselection. Like now I have 6 specimens in flower and mini clones of each. I select and cull the rest and start small pots and prune/up pot slowly until its like 3 gallons. Then repeat.

I need to invest a lot in this as why pheno hunt just to lose the mother. I learned pheno hunting S1’s and IBL’s etc narrows it down a lot tho and can make a clone like copy in seed form as S1’s or S2’s. To narrow down further god willing with herms etc. Just get good at finding and maintaining keepers which are just limited.

Theres not much bred for hash, like real breeding. There will though as its becoming popular. Need to invest in keeping mothers as much as finding them.

 

[medidedicated]

I remember seeing a video this guy was like yea gg4 is gonna reach a day where it just doesnt want to do it anymore. Could be there already people be saying the gg genetics s1’s arent good. That could be a homozygousity thing tho its just a bad batch. Just that nothing last forever in cannabis kinda like in life too. Its a sad reality. Idk if its s1’s just whatevers out now closest to a s1.

Im personally sick of gg4 I smoked it half my life.

 

[medidedicated]

Oh they are s1’s lol see. Im gettin it how it works. The breeding game is pretty small what you can do. Yea someone said those s1’s no good but its a trial and error thing but Id “think” breeders test that long before release. They could be pretty good but some times all it takes is one person that seems like they are credible. That if they say its no good its more than just because they grew it and saw others grow it.

The process of finding what you want or at least me is pretty simple would think its the same as others. Its just traits. You see how others did with it, their description, you match that to the breeder. Then if you know how the bell curve works with f1’s vs something inbred and what your willing to gamble, more specimens the better, then you decide if you invest.

 

[medidedicated]

The bell curve is interesting I mean, a f1 cross makes such a wide range that it could mean 100 duds. It also means hundreds of decent performers but then the veryyy very end of the right side of bell curve.. Could be the occasional stand outs. Im just trying to narrow it down to a fair chance thats possible with such a small setup.

No wonder its been nothing but duds when I try. Not large enough specimen and not narrowed down enough of genetics in seed.

 

[medidedicated]

“Slowing it down” is what I meant to add. Slowing down the eventual demise. Thats a core part of what Im after on this thread. How did road kill skunk become extinct? How do breeders lose things like that. NYC piff if thats the name. Other things like that. Is it that these things are lost and thats that.

That breeders just take in elite genetics as cuts or pheno hunt and “slow down” the eventual demise? The way some desieses have no cure but to slow down its progression. I dont have time but could research into these questions but like I said hearing from the right people helps a lot too.

 

[MissinThe90’sStrains]

You pose good questions, and the fact that you do extracts is a good way to measure your output and track relative “potency”. I am curious as to what other variables you may have going on in your system from grow to grow , that may have additional effects on your outcome - different stressors, change in feeding style, or maybe different pruning/training style leading to more apical buds vs more secondary colas (that may have lesser cannabinoid concentrations). I think you’re definitely on the right track and this is a great experiment to continue. I hope you get it figured out and get back to where you want to be.

 

[medidedicated]

Those are to be further studied but as to what I can do to forsure not lose yield is about as dialed in as it can be. Gentle handling until pressed, hand trimmed, 60/60 dried.

It wasnt always so, so I just am stumped for now. Since its so low I might as well find a new pheno but this pheno is valuable in its own way. For tests because Im so familiar with her.