Personally, I would expand the number by characterizing it as
it is, all of it is BS.....once people learned how it startedPersonally, I would expand the number by characterizing it as
all this BS cause of zealots, Jewish and otherwise.
Israel is a sovereign nation and its territory is to be respected. No argument about what is fact at the present.it is, all of it is BS.....once people learned how it started
United Nation Resolution 181 <-----other wise know a the beginning of the end imo......the formation of the state of Isreal
and those 2 asshats are the ones that started it all
Can I be moderator and do like fact-check, point out historical inaccuracies and convenient or unintentional gaps in history, fallacies, cherry picking and unfair biases?Rad, paging folks from that Roger waters thread to continue the debate.
De bat as one might say.
YesCan I be moderator and do like fact-check, point out historical inaccuracies and convenient or unintentional gaps in history, fallacies, cherry picking and unfair biases?
Ok this I can work with.Israel is a sovereign nation and its territory is to be respected. No argument about what is fact at the present.
What I don't understand is, looking back to the time before UN resolution 81, what justification can be given to the people living there at that time that their right to form a sovereign nation could be overlooked.
I saw a piece on our local left-bias pbs on the latest drama. 15 min about how horrible Israelis are when they respond to an attack that flashed by in maybe 120 frames. Typical. It seems almost every suggestion what Israelis should or shouldn’t do suggests showing more tolerance against extreme intolerance. Something none of us would even consider, we’d go apeshit on anyone trying to wipe out our country. But when it’s Jews, people get this tunnelvision focus on how Israel deals with the hostilities, rather than demanding arabs from Palestine and neighboring countries permanently stop all hostilities and not start shit again and again. If Israel wouldn’t be able to defend itself I’d vote for sending in an international peace force to protect their civilized advanced democratic (for now ) society against the attacks you don’t hear nearly as much about as Israel’s responses. But then I’m one of those people who thinks we should have never left Afghanistan.
So, let's reel it back a bit.Ok this I can work with.
It wasn’t overlooked (?) The idea by then was a jewish and an arab state, with economic ties and safe place on both sides regardless of religion. The jews, including most zionists, were happy with that (after all they got over 60% of the land), best day ever stuff, party time. But the Arab side boycotted the plan, started killing jews the next day, and with the help of 6 neighboring Arab nations tried to destroy Israel. Brits decided to stay out of it, Arab league failed. Instead Israel pushed them all back and in that process took another chunk of land, displacing 700k Palestinians while Egypt took gaza (where Hamas rules, offshoot of Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood…) and Jordan the west bank. That 700k is rarely mentioned together with the quarter of a million jews who had to flee from those same Arab aggressors nations, cause they were no longer safe there.
It didn’t all start with UN resolution 181. Like Truman, unlike suggested in the Waters thread, not being they key deciding factor, it was already set in motion by the League of Nations, of which US in contrary to much of the world was not a part (though Calvin Coolidge agreed). After the Brits beat the Turks, who owned the area for hundreds of years, they were put in charge by the rest of the world to control the region they now called Mandatory Palestine. The idea was to take control until they (jewish and arab palestinians) were able to form a nation. But Brits also promised Jews, not deemed too backward, their own state. Which Jews wanted not specifically because of their religion but because of anti-semitism in Russia and Europe (which started long before ww2). Zionism isn’t as much about religion as some want to make it. Sure it’s used as an excuse by some, but it’s really about self-preservation.
Ending illegal settlements doesn’t mean giving land to uhm.. not sure actually. ”The Palestians” isn’t really a thing as in a nation of organized people. If Israel would have to give occupied territories to the nations that are the previous owners, it would mean Golan Heights back to Syria, Gaza to Egypt and West Bank to Jordan. Aside from the latter that would be messed up. Areas from which those countries attacked Israel in an attempt to annihilate it, again.
“The people living there at that time”, arabs from all over the region and semi-nomadic tribes roaming the desert some now pretend was always “Palestinian land” or even more absurd, “Palestine”. The maps floating around on social media, incl in Waters thread, are extremely misleading. Hamas propaganda material.
Ironically, never in history did the “Palestians“ get so many opportunities to create their own state since Israel declared independence. If only they had their priorities straight, that is, dial down that urge to kill jews and themselves with it and then pretend to be the victim of it all.
Not simply maybe, yes. They were attacked by Arabs from all over the region and grabbed 60% of what was supposed to become part of the Arab part/state. Sounds excessive but is directly a result of defending themselves, which includes making it harder for the enemy to attack again, a near certain prospect.But I think we should acknowledge that Israel wasn't simply defending itself.
Totally agree and i welcome the conversationIsrael is a sovereign nation and its territory is to be respected. No argument about what is fact at the present.
Actually it is, considering the Grand Mufti and his connectionsI don't think that it is so simple as to point at a Muslim and a Nazi leader as the cause of the turmoil.
He fled Palestine in 1937 and wasn't a pollical leader there ever since. He did lead the revolt against British rule in 1936. He lived in fascist Italy for most of the war and was a figure head leader in the Middle East ever since.Totally agree and i welcome the conversation
View attachment 5301997
now we all know Hitler.....
allow me to introduce you to other guy, Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem from 1921 to 1948, he was also Pan Arab Nationalist, a Facist, and a member of the Nazi Party. He was also President of the Supreme Muslin Council during that the time and as well as the President of All-Palestine as well. Now it was know at the time Hitler sent emissaries throughout the Middle East, one contact was the Mufti himself. He is also know to have made Muslim SS squads throughout the Slav states and as well into the Black Sea states. There are pictures of him in the Wiki article i posted that shows him inspecting and as well as doing the Nazi Salute to his commandos. He was also the instigator of the 1948 Palestinian war too....
Amin al-Husseini - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Actually it is, considering the Grand Mufti and his connections
Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
and now we have this:
View attachment 5301998
that's hezbollah, insteresting salute don't you think
The thing that I don’t understand is how a plan drawn up by adults could have internal borders thousands of miles long. The Arab portions were surrounded by other culturally similar states. The Israeli portion was not. The Israelis were driven by a need to consolidate defensible borders, which required seizure of Arab land, which precipitated a response from the Arabs requiring greater Israeli border consolidation for state survival, which …He fled Palestine in 1937 and wasn't a pollical leader there ever since. He did lead the revolt against British rule in 1936. He lived in fascist Italy for most of the war and was a figure head leader in the Middle East ever since.
Considering what happened to Palestinians, he was not wrong when he opposed the UN partition plan AND the the King of Jordan's plan to annex that territory. Was his anti-Semitism due to his nationalism or was it the other way around? He did seem to be trying to establish a Palestinian-controlled territory after the British left. But he was an anti-Semite. It would have gone hard on the Jewish people who were also there at the time so I am not defending him. Just pointing out that the Zionist movement at that time and the behavior of the west toward Palestinians was pretty racist toward the Palestinian Arabs. Jewish militias did fire on Palestinian Arabs and joined with the British military during the 1936 revolt. They were militant and defending a vision of a Jewish state in a region that they had no valid claim upon at that time.
Call it what you like. There were fanatics on both sides that were destined to create a tragedy. This time, the tragedy was visited upon the Palestinian Arabs. What I'm objecting to is how they are being written out of history by Israel and the Zionist movement world wide. I'm pointing out that this is what radical authoritarians do when they are covering up their misdeeds and justifying whatever happens next.
Today's situation is a snake pit. The current hierarchy and division will not hold. With the advancing amount of land held by "settlers" in the West Bank against international laws, I think the only answer is a one state solution. But the time for that is not now. Israel of today will never accept a solution that has a majority of Arabs holding the same voting rights as Jews. Then again, they keep supporting the formation of settlements and protecting them with their military.Split over two posts so it looks less lengthy
You did indeed paraphrased unfairly, as it paints a different picture than what I was trying to portray with arabs ‘and’ semi-nomadic tribes and Palestinians at the time not representing a single group or a nation of organized people. They are still not able to form a nation, as the world agreed on almost a century ago. That's not on the Jews. Blame Russia, Europe, UK, US, UN, Arab League instead. It still is fragmented, not just physically. Who should rule the Palestine Israel should return land to or de-occupy? Hamas (rules Gaza with populistic hate) who received 56% of the votes in last election 17 years ago? Or Fatah (rules West Bank by buying loyalty), who refuses to work with Hamas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_conflict Who should deal with human-right issues and lack of rights and law and order in said Palestine, or should we just let them be like Afghanistan. While they're at it, should Israel give the Golan back to Syria, to Assad?
My point remains that Israel has every right to defend themselves, including retaliate by taking out murderers and terrorists targeting civilians, as long the hostilities directed to them continue. I'm pro-worldpeace, which in my book doesn't include creating an islamic sharia state that had plenty of fair chances to create their own peaceful state if they weren't so pre-occupied with their anti-semitic urge to kill jews.
It was designed to fail. Any adult can see that.The thing that I don’t understand is how a plan drawn up by adults could have internal borders thousands of miles long. The Arab portions were surrounded by other culturally similar states. The Israeli portion was not. The Israelis were driven by a need to consolidate defensible borders, which required seizure of Arab land, which precipitated a response from the Arabs requiring greater Israeli border consolidation for state survival, which …
and here we are.
And both sides have a legitimate historical claim to the same lands. It’s a mess, and as you observe it is driving a move toward authoritarian government on all sides. It’s a heartbreak without any equitable solution I can see.It was designed to fail. Any adult can see that.
Eeek, that loaded language that makes it appear that you believe Israeli Jews can do no wrong against Palestinian Muslims, just retaliation against murderers and terrorists. So is any action that Israel does just retaliation?My point remains that Israel has every right to defend themselves, including retaliate by taking out murderers and terrorists targeting civilians, as long the hostilities directed to them continue. I'm pro-worldpeace, which in my book doesn't include creating an islamic sharia state that had plenty of fair chances to create their own peaceful state if they weren't so pre-occupied with their anti-semitic urge to kill jews.