GML Accusations..

[grotbags]

If you were trying to copy a very specific design, yes absolutely.

but why does he need a one to one copy hes not trying to pass them off as originals.

 

[PJ Diaz]

but why does he need a one to one copy hes not trying to pass them off as originals.

Clearly he’s trying to copy HLG’s work as a fuck you to them. Is that not obvious?

 

[grotbags]

Clearly he’s trying to copy HLG’s work as a fuck you to them. Is that not obvious?

what down to the exact 0.1 of mm of track thickness on the pcb's?, yer hes got it bad for hlg alright...

 

[PJ Diaz]

A lot of people here who’ve never seen or heard the GML show are making presumptions. I’ve watched his shows quite a bit on both zoom and youtube, mostly to hear what info Steve has to give, which is often really great stuff. GML is kind of a dumbass to be honest. He does have some good panelists though, such as Spartan Grown.

 

[Scuzzman]

well must admit I agree with @PJ Diaz and his statement above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^..

 

[1212ham]

That’s not how reverse engineering works.

It's diodes on a board.

The diodes used is known.

What is there to reverse engineer?

 

[Rocket Soul]

Reverse engineer, in the context of these new gml lights is not the right phrasing, not even close. Its like saying that BMW had to reverse engineer the T-ford because they both make cars and one made a car before the other. But they both kinda look like eachother? Yes, both lights try to spread the light around properly without blocking airflow. Also, most of them dont even look the same, hlg doesnt do bar lights.
Id argue that gmls boards are infact superior to the HLG boards: they add a separate far red channel where hlg is just one channel. Diode quality is a different thing, pretty sure hlg gets the best diodes but those gml boards dont look the same, they dont work the same as hlg boards, theres only a couple of similarities as samsung diodes and the heatsink/fixture shape of that vulcan light. You do not need to take apart or look at a hlg board in any way to get that gml board made, you can just dictate what you want down to some alibubber and they will draw the gerber file for you and populate the boards. All he did was getting his own growlight made after having worked with another growlight company.
Growmaus used to work for Chilled, and now works for HLG. Does that mean tha hlgs lights are now chilled clones? Not really.
The whole trying to find the bad guy here is a bit silly; both hlg and gml seems quite dedicated to provide good lights and good aftersales. Its just that they had a falling out. No need for anyone of us to get onto either of the new "teams", especially not cause we bought a light or something already.
Please dont construe this as me having a go at either hlg or gml, this discussion seems to have taken on that "tribal" online mode where everybody just talk past eachother and their arguments. We could just aswell settling this discussion by everybody saying "i like hlg" and the rest saying "i dont" cause the arguments being made by now dont seem to go towards the merit of thw subject, only that "i dont like those other people with those different light choices".

 

[hillbill]

Nothing to reinvent as all components are available and any light can be made to order, including customer badging.

 

[grotbags]

It's diodes on a board.

The diodes used is known.

What is there to reverse engineer?

exactly... you reverse engineer ufo's not quantum boards.

 

[grotbags]

Reverse engineer, in the context of these new gml lights is not the right phrasing, not even close. Its like saying that BMW had to reverse engineer the T-ford because they both make cars and one made a car before the other. But they both kinda look like eachother? Yes, both lights try to spread the light around properly without blocking airflow. Also, most of them dont even look the same, hlg doesnt do bar lights.
Id argue that gmls boards are infact superior to the HLG boards: they add a separate far red channel where hlg is just one channel. Diode quality is a different thing, pretty sure hlg gets the best diodes but those gml boards dont look the same, they dont work the same as hlg boards, theres only a couple of similarities as samsung diodes and the heatsink/fixture shape of that vulcan light. You do not need to take apart or look at a hlg board in any way to get that gml board made, you can just dictate what you want down to some alibubber and they will draw the gerber file for you and populate the boards. All he did was getting his own growlight made after having worked with another growlight company.
Growmaus used to work for Chilled, and now works for HLG. Does that mean tha hlgs lights are now chilled clones? Not really.
The whole trying to find the bad guy here is a bit silly; both hlg and gml seems quite dedicated to provide good lights and good aftersales. Its just that they had a falling out. No need for anyone of us to get onto either of the new "teams", especially not cause we bought a light or something already.
Please dont construe this as me having a go at either hlg or gml, this discussion seems to have taken on that "tribal" online mode where everybody just talk past eachother and their arguments. We could just aswell settling this discussion by everybody saying "i like hlg" and the rest saying "i dont" cause the arguments being made by now dont seem to go towards the merit of thw subject, only that "i dont like those other people with those different light choices".

THANKYOU...

just to add i have no skin in this game and i couldnt care less what light someone buys, i dont own or ever will own a light by hlg or gml.
im not for or against either side im just commenting on parts of the story i find interesting/strange...

but with 99% led growlight spectrums being so similar really the only differentiating factor is efficiency and despite the recent rumblings hlg are at the top of that tree...

 

[pop22]

It's up to GML to back that up, if he had proof I'm sure he would have made it public. But knowing Steve and Amit, and the fact that HLG built it's success on a reputation of quality and honesty, I truly doubt any such thing ever happened. Did they cherry pick results? Maybe, though I doubt it. Do canna companies cherry pick THC % numbers??? maybe... I'm not an insider so I could only ask. However, I've already pm'd Steve to tell him I support him and HLG. I've also tried to get some info out of gml but got no reply.
Asking the testing company is s good idea, I'd be interested in their reply. A testing company has to operate on accuracy and honesty as they won't be around long otherwise.

@pop22 well can you please explain the HLG position on this subject - do they have any data to back up there claims , the concern in my view is the fool GML stated LED company's supply fake lights for testing and singled out HLG - I would like to see paper work backing this claim up, also I think its time(as @Rocket Soul ) stated earlier maybe we as customers need to be asking questions of the testing outlets .. -HAS anyone asked questions of testing outlets to comment on this subject ?

Not targeting HLG at all I think people are generally concerned that they are buying what they were told they were getting - sales reps always blame employers when things go pear shape ...

Also that fool GML has edited his video to the point it's all out of context- he does this all the time - he needs to back up his statements with facts still waiting he did the same a few years back.. pretty sure he is not taking his meds

-as they say you cant make a silk purse of of a sows ear

 

[hillbill]

exactly... you reverse engineer ufo's not quantum boards.

Or a B29

 

[pop22]

And of the few companies that actually test their lights, tell me which ones are not cherry picking results? Maybe companies need to state a PPF range instead of a single metric.

I wonder what one that has been used for 6 months would test at. If I had the money to throw away, I'd send mine to be tested........

One thing nobody raised in this clusterduck of a thread is reliability of testing. Since the stream isnt there anymore its hard to quote stuff exactly but i do believe GML got several different numbers on his light after repeated tests. To me this feels really relevant: of course you could make a "super light" which is only used for testing in order to boost numbers but what if you dont have to? If you test your light enough times you can just shop around for the results you want.
Also, remember that bins are wider than we think: +-7% is usual which means you can have quite a bit variance. This means you could theoretically have almost 15% difference between one light and another within the same range and still be within tolerance limits. On a 3 ppf/w light that quickly becomes a lot, much more than what people will bicker to death about on here.

 

[pop22]

actually the specs for the new QB 200 is not posted for exactly this reason, to give HLG some leadtime before the scavengers make copies.....

yer but the guy in china doesnt need the light in his hands to copy, he could just go on hlg's website and copy the specs.

 

[pop22]

No, they'd just take some cheapass pcb and fudge it, then load it up with cheap reject chips that go out the back door.....

so you think if i contacted kingbrite or mejui for for a custom quantum board order of 10,000 boards, and i said i want them 6.833″ x 11.25" , with 648 5000k samsung 301h and 16 660nm samsung lm351, they would say yes fine we can do it as long as you send us one first so we can copy it???.

 

[bk78]

Time for a snickers poppy

 

[Wattzzup]

so we’re back to everyone is doing it so it’s ok.

You also claim Meiju and kingbrite is doing it but you don’t even work there, how would you know. You didn’t know HLG was (allegedly) doing it even though you sell their lights?

 

[grotbags]

actually the specs for the new QB 200 is not posted for exactly this reason, to give HLG some leadtime before the scavengers make copies.....

i honestly think this ship has sailed, i dont think the chinese light manufactures are hanging off hlgs every move anymore. they have seen what they needed to years ago.
until someone comes up with something new like quantum boards were to cobs or strip lights were to boards, this industry is more or less on autopilot...

 

[grotbags]

No, they'd just take some cheapass pcb and fudge it, then load it up with cheap reject chips that go out the back door.....

this thread started with unfounded accusations...so this seems a fitting end...

 

[Prawn Connery]

Clearly he’s trying to copy HLG’s work as a fuck you to them. Is that not obvious?

LOL! If I can design a PCB anyone can! Seriously, it's not that hard.

What is hard is doing the extensive work of growing and testing to see what works best. It's testing individual diodes to see if their performance is what the maufacturer says it is. It's negotiating the best efficiency bins you can afford – and/or designing around it if the particular diode you want to use is in high demand with fewer "top bins" to go around. It's testing different spectra to see how it affects yield, secondary metabolites and photomorphogenic response. It's testing equipment to ensure it is reliable and "fool-proof" for users. It's consulting real-world growers with experience to to see what features are more valuable than others. Etc.

If you haven't already read @Grow Lights Australia 's post earlier, have a read: https://www.rollitup.org/t/gml-accusations.1071675/page-15#post-16856518

As for efficiency testing, there are as many ways to fudge the results as there are variables. We are going through this right now: our goniometer testing of the new boards was not showing as high as we thought they should. It had us buggered as to why not. Then we took an older board which we already knew the reults of and tested it under the same conditions. What do you know? It tested the same as the new board! So, what was the issue?

Temperature and airflow. Testing in a cold warehouse in Melbourne with a fan blowing to simulate growing conditions vs testing in a hot warehouse in Melbourne (LED Teknik's facility) without.

Have a look at this graph. There is a 2-3% difference in flux between a junction temperture of 25C and 40C – which, incidentally, is exactly what we saw when our 3.01 umol/j boards suddenly tested 2.92 umol/j on a hot day. Same board, same diodes, same measuring equipment. Of course, the junction temps would have been much higher than the ambient temps, and there is a faster drop-off as the temperature increases.


Then there is the teting equipment itself. Anyone who has ever built performance engines knows about "happy dynos" – they make their customers very happy . . . until they take their cars down to the drag strip. The numbers don't lie. Which is why you have to test on the same dyno if you want to see where you're at. And even then, with a change in temperature, humidity and barometric pressure you will see marked differences in rear-wheel horsepower on the same dyno.

Those Chinese spheres? They're the equivalent of a "happy dyno". At least we know the gionometer is accurate, even if it doesn't always give us the results we want or expect. But even the best equipment in the world is at the mercy of the elements and operator.

And what about those Mars Hydro claims of "3 grams per watt!" – has anyone here ever yielded 3gpw? No?

Bragging about efficiency is a bit of a mug's game, because anyone can fudge the figures – good or bad, depending on which side of the manufacturer's fence you sit. But there are some things you can't fudge: real-world results being one of them. You also can't fudge the fact that some manufacturers have buying power or better relationships with certain diode makers and so they get to stand near the front of the line when it comes to buying "top bin" LEDs. Epecially Samsungs!

I don't have a dog in this fight but I certainly have a vested interest. At the end of the day, I'm just happy to let our lights do the talking.