Trump is the iceberg, the Democratic party is the Titanic, and progressives are the lifeboat

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
I cited national polls conducted by Pew Research and Gallup showing most Americans support the policy positions Sanders supports. Things like universal healthcare and funding for scientific and medical research are objectively beneficial for the US.

So they're good for the country and most Americans support them

American politics has been this way for a long time, why would continuing the same system of corporate influence controlling government policy change anything?

Americans oppose incrementalism, they support actual change in the way our government is operating. They voted for radical change in the past 3 presidential elections. So it would seem pretty clear to me mosts Americans agree with me, your position of gradual change that don't actually affect people in any significant way is the minority position to hold. You just lost the election pushing that message and yet you still believe it to be a winning strategy, why?

We're going to find out who's right sooner or later. Establishment Democrats have total control over the direction of the party at the moment, so if moderates are right, Democrats should pick up seats in government, which shouldn't be too hard considering the circumstances. Let's see if Perez' strategy of courting big money donors pays off in 2018 and 2020.
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You didn't cite anything where people self-identified as progressives. So, "I don't want my mother to starve". Well yeah. Not wanting one's mother to starve isn't a progressive vs right wing issue. You jump from a pew poll to "everybody is like me".

Nope. Take the facts for what they are. More and more states are voting for right wingers. This does not indicate people are becoming more progressive. And, the Democratic losses in purple states were by small margins. This does not indicate a sea change to the left or to the right. Taken at face value, it indicates a small change to the right in middle America.

Why is this so? Economic stress and anxiety. It's the economy, stupid. And not national economy, local economic conditions that affect people where they live. Trump lied but promised middle America he'd stop those Mexicans from stealing their shit, protect them from those radical Muslim terrorist refugees and millions of jobs. Clinton said "stronger together". You are projecting your wishes onto polls that can be much more easily interpreted as common values than than the contorted idea that the Democratic party is not as progressive as the majority of Americans.

I repeat that I support repealing Citizen's United, free public education through an undergraduate degree, universal health care and most progressive causes. I just don't see the majority going that direction quickly. Slowly, yes but not until the bread and butter issues are honestly dealt with.

And no, the Democratic party is not entirely bought and paid for by the corporations. Bernie Sanders introduced an amendment to repeal Citizens United and every Democrat in the Senate supported it. Republicans voted against it with large enough numbers to stop it. Please explain how that means Wall Street owns the Democratic Party.
 
Wilderb

Wilderb

Well-Known Member
tangerinegreen555 said:
View attachment 3907380
Here's a hmmm for ya.
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So why is it you say them going right didn't work?? I'm baffled by this.
BTW Wi hadn't gone for a Rep since 84. Why did that happen?
I know many on here think that everybody in the midwest are redneck idiots but it's not so.
Don't the the dems WANT to figure out why they lost as to avoid making it a habit anymore than they already have?
 
tangerinegreen555

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
Wilderb said:
So why is it you say them going right didn't work?? I'm baffled by this.
BTW Wi hadn't gone for a Rep since 84. Why did that happen?
I know many on here think that everybody in the midwest are redneck idiots but it's not so.
Don't the the dems WANT to figure out why they lost as to avoid making it a habit anymore than they already have?
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Jesusfuck, you originally quoted me about the teaparty. The teaparty didn't flip the election.

I want a hit of that shit you're smoking.
 
esh dov ets

esh dov ets

Well-Known Member
Wilderb said:
When you refer to the policies, without calling them progressive, do most people agree?
We love to hate things we classify. Like "liberal" or "Right wing". Or we decide a word means something it does not. Take "ignorance" for example. We are all ignorant on many things. Nothing wrong with that.
Why does progress mean bad?? Tell me what progressive agenda you disagree with?
I believe that most of the people agree on 80% of the things that government is supposed to do. The problem is that we can't even get those things done because we are on "sides" now.
While we run around and say "we are diverse", we think that everybody's interests are best served by ONLY 2 CHOICES???
So many walked away from the system because NEITHER side represented them. For good or bad, trump has awoken some of them. So now I sit here and watch those who say they are dems. Do they reach out to those voters?
No.
Trailer dweller, gay, nazi, non high school graduate, welfare recipient and things of that nature are used to slam them.
Do I agree with their politics? NO. Do I want what they want? Hell No. But to criticize them for being what they are?
It really does make many look like the "lefy elitist" they are accused of being.
WE
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Utopia , utopian , anarchy , anarchist, union, democracy, ism... All can be totally straight up good things but are usually cast in a negitive light.
You folks have been arguing whether other folks are progresive or agree with progresive adgenas . The facts are , most people will agree on things like human rights if you talk to them about it. However Most people don't know what to vote for to solve a givin problem and most don't vote progresive when given a chance.
 
Wilderb

Wilderb

Well-Known Member
tangerinegreen555 said:
Jesusfuck, you originally quoted me about the teaparty. The teaparty didn't flip the election.

I want a hit of that shit you're smoking.
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I would be happy to share!bongsmilie

I'm really not trying to make you mad. But I DID not quote you about the tea party.
I am of the belief that they went right, and they won. Granted, lots of crazy shit in between. But what is the reason?
Just "stupid" voters in the midwest? I keep hearing that. That does not sound like a good strategy moving forward.

I'm used to having these discussions in a hole in the wall where everybody is fucked up and armed. I'm just used to people saying what they mean and meaning what they say.
I know.....it's the internet.
:peace:
WE
 
Wilderb

Wilderb

Well-Known Member
esh dov ets said:
Utopia , utopian , anarchy , anarchist, union, democracy, ism... All can be totally straight up good things but are usually cast in a negitive light.
You folks have been arguing whether other folks are progresive or agree with progresive adgenas . The facts are , most people will agree on things like human rights if you talk to them about it. However Most people don't know what to vote for to solve a givin problem and most don't vote progresive when given a chance.
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I would beg to differ. But I appreciate your viewpoint.
Isn't the time to make changes when you hit rock bottom?
EDIT
And.........I think the discussion is a good one to have.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Wilderb said:
So why is it you say them going right didn't work?? I'm baffled by this.
BTW Wi hadn't gone for a Rep since 84. Why did that happen?
I know many on here think that everybody in the midwest are redneck idiots but it's not so.
Don't the the dems WANT to figure out why they lost as to avoid making it a habit anymore than they already have?
Click to expand...
Bread and butter economic security where a person lives should not be a conservative value, which somehow it's become to enough people in middle america. I'd like to know how that happened.

Here's an article on the subject from a fairly unbiased source:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/stop-saying-trumps-win-had-nothing-to-do-with-economics/

obvious measures of economic struggle such as poverty and unemployment were poor predictors of Trump support; indeed, exit polls show that Hillary Clinton won handily among poorer Americans.

The drift toward right wing politics in middle America isn't because of economic hardship. People who actually are poor voted for Democrats

What’s the difference between hardship and anxiety? Hardship, as I’m using it here, refers to a person’s present-day economic struggles: poverty, joblessness, falling wages, foreclosure, bankruptcy. Anxiety is all about what lies ahead — concerns about saving for retirement or college, worry of a potential layoff, fears that your children’s prospects aren’t as bright as your own were.

Trump, as FiveThirtyEight contributor Jed Kolko noted immediately after the election, won most counties — and improved on Romney’s performance — where a large share of jobs are vulnerable to outsourcing or automation.

The role of economics in the election matters politically: for Trump, because voters may turn on him if he doesn’t deliver on his economic promises, and for Democrats, because they will struggle to win back the White House if they don’t find ways to speak convincingly on these issues.

Democrats need to be more than the protectors of the poor, they need to be seen as the party that will reverse jobs losses in the heartland. Trump and the radical right wing congress is an opportunity for the Democratic party to re-establish itself. I'd like to hear what you think that looks like. I also agree that Clinton, Gore, Kerry, east and west coast intellectuals have been dismissive of middle American concerns and talked as if they thought Middle America is stupid.
 
Wilderb

Wilderb

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Democrats need to be more than the protectors of the poor, they need to be seen as the party that will reverse jobs losses in the heartland. Trump and the radical right wing congress is an opportunity for the Democratic party to re-establish itself.
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I agree 100%
Fogdog said:
I also agree that Clinton, Gore, Kerry, east and west coast intellectuals have been dismissive of middle American concerns and talked as if they thought Middle America is stupid.
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Do you like people who call you stupid?
 
Wilderb

Wilderb

Well-Known Member
Once you have marginalized a group of people, it's hard to get them back. NAFTA (or specter of it) became the reason given for almost every plant closing around here.
This made Clinton carry a stigma right off the bat. And frankly, I believe she ran a shitty campaign. That is my opinion, I have every right to have it. Seems like so many chances to throw us a bone, but she didn't.
So many simple things she could have done. Cannabis support, not waffled on the tpp, Bernie for VP, disavowed her wall street ties.
I voted for her. Not happily but I did. I guess most around me did not.
Come drive on our roads. Alot of counties have started to grind up COUNTY roads and just put down gravel because it's cheaper to maintain. And yes our state is run by the reds. But these problems started when both parties still had shared power.
Sometimes perception is more important than reality. We don't buy the hype anymore.
The rest of the country was more than happy for us to manufacture the goods and grow the food.
But now it's cheaper to get it from China.
I enjoy these discussions and hope we can continue them without the "dumbfucks from the midewst" theory.
I've been to lots of big cities and enjoy them. The culture and diversity. I'm a big museum goer( although I always get followed around by security) For a day or two. Then back to the sticks for me.
The exchange of ideas and opinions will only make us stronger.
Now.........back to that gooooooood shit!
WE
 
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