You don't even know a free market. Reinstate the constitution, by force.

I've revised your analogy to be more fitting.

Read about the history of free markets, true free markets.

You catch double pneumonia, both lungs. The doctor tells you that you might die, but you'll probably live. If you do live though, you may never walk again. Now, you've got one credit card. It's got a $400,000 limit, and you've already overcharged it $5165900, but with your great credit and a history of repaying, so the bank is cool with that. Buying some antibiotics for your pneumonia will max out your card, $10,000, which can cause the bank to finally lose trust in you and call all debts payable immediately causing the loss of your and your families property. The doctor says it will greatly increase your odds, but is a known liar, and is member to an organization that has lied to millions for about 100 years, and there is SOME chance you'll even be able to walk again he says to you, if you buy the antibiotics. So, do you buy them, accruing even more debt, to minimize your suffering? Or do you save the extra debt, but increase the chance that you die, so says the doctor?

Bongulator said:

Here's an analogy. You catch double pneumonia, both lungs. The doctor tells you that you might die, but you'll probably live. If you do live though, you may never walk again. Now, you've got one credit card. It's got a $1000 limit, and you've already got $900 on the card. Buying some antibiotics for your pneumonia will max out your card, $100. That will greatly reduce the chance that you will die, and there is SOME chance you'll even be able to walk again, if you buy the antibiotics. So, do you buy them, accruing even more debt, to minimize your suffering? Or do you save the extra debt, but increase the chance that you die?

Or another simpler analogy. We're playing Russian Roulette with our future. No way around that, we ARE going to pull the trigger. As the gun is now, two of the six chambers hold a bullet. But for $700 billion, we can take one round out of the gun before we pull the trigger.

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dknob said:

Read more about fluoride. National Research Council is a credible American source if that is what is required. Yes I know those studies are from India and China, but the evidence comes from everywhere.

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I read of those studies. Typical municipal water fluoridation is about 1 mg/liter. The children in those studies lived in areas that had high naturally occurring fluoride levels, of over three times that for the Chinese study and over five times that for the Indian study. Besides, the studies don't use enough controls to draw a valid conclusion. Each one just compares two villages which may have other differences as well. Anyway, here's a good article on the subject:

The Straight Dope: Is fluoride in water a good thing or a danger?

Democracy was said to be one of the worst forms of government by Ben Franklin I think. This country was founded as a republic. Democracy was equated to the term MOBocracy, meaning tyranny of the majority, now we spread democracy like it is the new Christianity.

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Oh, there are much worse forms of government than democracy. But technically the US is a combination of a republic and a democracy anyway.

Complaining doesn't cut it, and has not worked for 100 years. People complain and complain and things get much worse. We need the 2nd to remain in tact.

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Admittedly, a lot of times when people complain, they want the government to do things that people like you don't believe it should. Senior citizens complaining about how Medicare wasn't paying for prescription drugs, for instance. But many times it has worked. For instance, welfare spending was excessive and not very effective under the Great Society programs. But people complained, and it was eventually reformed quite well. The civil rights movement and the Vietnam war protests are also examples of protesting that worked.

What would I do with a constitution, freedom? I wouldn't be buying a carbon filter, I might be playing in the stock market, I would never be seized at police check points, I might be looking at property, I would not have to distill my water as no money would be alotted to medicate 65% of everyone at the expense of tax dollars. I would consider working for other people instead of working for myself and taking only cash. I wouldn't be stockpiling silver, guns, water, food and vitamins. I wouldn't have to worry so much really. I'd probably be programming shit for a company on the cutting edge of tech. I probably wouldn't have moved from Cali to where im at, I wouldn't spend so much time online, thats for sure. I wouldn't spend the time doing everything I do to prepare and hide. I wouldnt have to feel raped if I choose to work a regular job every paycheck through taxes. Shit I might not even be growing, just going to the local 711. Free markets, and general freedom is tough to imagine, since we've never experienced it.

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I take it you make at least some of your money on the illicit drug trade? If they were legalized, that money would dry up, you know. Anyway, you could just learn Spanish and move to Chile. The only tax there is sales tax, and the government mostly just keeps to itself. Heck, Milton Friedman helped design their economic policies. Internet access is also much better than you'd expect. The gun laws there are not as permissive as they are in the US, but it's way easier to get around laws there. And Chile has a much lower homicide rate than the US as well. Property is kind of expensive though; since there are no property taxes, there is a tendency for landowners to hoard it.

You are far more passive than I am, I just hope you do your research before you pass judgement. The "norm" in the United States is unacceptable. But I don't think id abandon her now. I want revenge.

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Revenge on who, for what? Anyway, I kind of like disobeying laws. Hell, if weed was legal, I might not even bother smoking or growing it.

Fluoride should never be added to water period. How bad is even the 1mg/liter dose for a developing child? There are plenty of cities in the United States that have above standard, high fluoride levels. To be safe, it should be removed from the water. National Research Council has recognized the effect fluoride has on the brain, check out NRC, they are legit. I will read your article. However since we do not require fluoridated water for anything, and since it has the potential to harm your teeth, bones and brain, it should not be used or paid for by tax dollars (socialized "medicine"). Fluoride is everywhere, not just in the water. Its in everything made with municipal water and is also used as a preservative. Also because Hitler used fluoridated water, and Stalin, for whatever reason (to cause apathy), ill remain paranoid about this.

I agree, it can be worse than democracy, but his comment just illustrates his views of democracy. You very rarely hear anyone refer to this country as a republic anymore.

Complaining and protesting has not worked enough to safeguard all of our rights and the constitution, which is what I cling to because it shows me clearly my rights afforded to me by the founding fathers. I know the constitution is not perfect, but it is great.

Chili sounds like a nice place! lol. So does Switzerland. I don't know, I am up in the air on this one. On one side I want to stay here and help where I can and stick around for a revolt. On one side I want to make a move for self preservation and overall happiness.

I do not make any money selling ganja. Haven't even harvested yet. I'd be happy to give up that sort of income for the legalization benefits. From fuel, to building materials, to the freedom to smoke and grow a plant. I make all my cash by making websites and optimizing them for search engines. And its all CASH.

Revenge on the controllers of the federal reserve, IRS, war profiteers and tyrannical congresspeople who vote for BLATANTLY unconstitutional programs. For their obvious crimes. The federal reserve and IRS enslave us. When a portion of your paycheck is automatically taken from you, this to me, implies ownership of my labor. The war profiteers lobby to send troops to foreign countries and make 100 dollars on every load of military laundry, for once example, and supply dirty water to our troops. 1 example. Everything could fit in maybe a 1000 page book.

Doctor, just so I can get where you are coming from - what is YOUR view on the federal reserve? Are you an American? Born here? You seem well traveled or just well studied on these other countries. What do you think about the IRS? Legalization of M? Adding Fluoride to water? Adding fluoride to salt and bottled water in 2009? Making fluoride a necessary nutrient? What do you think about McCain and Obama? They are funded by the same banks, as with every candidate that ran other than Ron Paul, Kucinich and other "fringe" candidates. Do you think we would be better off with or without the constitution? How about 911?

Doctor Pot said:

I read of those studies. Typical municipal water fluoridation is about 1 mg/liter. The children in those studies lived in areas that had high naturally occurring fluoride levels, of over three times that for the Chinese study and over five times that for the Indian study. Besides, the studies don't use enough controls to draw a valid conclusion. Each one just compares two villages which may have other differences as well. Anyway, here's a good article on the subject:

The Straight Dope: Is fluoride in water a good thing or a danger?


Oh, there are much worse forms of government than democracy. But technically the US is a combination of a republic and a democracy anyway.

Admittedly, a lot of times when people complain, they want the government to do things that people like you don't believe it should. Senior citizens complaining about how Medicare wasn't paying for prescription drugs, for instance. But many times it has worked. For instance, welfare spending was excessive and not very effective under the Great Society programs. But people complained, and it was eventually reformed quite well. The civil rights movement and the Vietnam war protests are also examples of protesting that worked.


I take it you make at least some of your money on the illicit drug trade? If they were legalized, that money would dry up, you know. Anyway, you could just learn Spanish and move to Chile. The only tax there is sales tax, and the government mostly just keeps to itself. Heck, Milton Friedman helped design their economic policies. Internet access is also much better than you'd expect. The gun laws there are not as permissive as they are in the US, but it's way easier to get around laws there. And Chile has a much lower homicide rate than the US as well. Property is kind of expensive though; since there are no property taxes, there is a tendency for landowners to hoard it.


Revenge on who, for what? Anyway, I kind of like disobeying laws. Hell, if weed was legal, I might not even bother smoking or growing it.

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I like how Cecil doesnt just spout a bunch of bullshit like alot of people do when talking about fluoride. And he admits some of the flaws. However when fluoride is in all tap water, it gets everywhere and in everything. People are getting higher doses than is added to the water. Fluoride also hangs around in your body, you do not dispell all of it, and it builds up in your body. He also notes that even though water fluoridation has been credited with a decrease in dental caries, other countries without fluoridation have declined at the same rate. The US decline in dental caries made water fluoridation one of the top 10 medical discoveries of the 20th century. I think these other countries should make the lack of water fluoridation one of the top 10 medical discoveries of the 20th century lol.

Fluoride & the Brain
We are getting more fluoride than is put in the water. My concerns are not unwarrented. Yes the studies in my sig may lack controls necessary. They are independant of eachother. Im not going to just assume something other than the fluoride is the cause. But I know I cannot purely assume that fluoride is the one and only cause.

dknob said:

Fluoride should never be added to water period. How bad is even the 1mg/liter dose for a developing child? There are plenty of cities in the United States that have above standard, high fluoride levels. To be safe, it should be removed from the water. National Research Council has recognized the effect fluoride has on the brain, check out NRC, they are legit. I will read your article. However since we do not require fluoridated water for anything, and since it has the potential to harm your teeth, bones and brain, it should not be used or paid for by tax dollars (socialized "medicine"). Fluoride is everywhere, not just in the water. Its in everything made with municipal water and is also used as a preservative. Also because Hitler used fluoridated water, and Stalin, for whatever reason (to cause apathy), ill remain paranoid about this.

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There are many, many things that are good for you at low levels, but bad for you at higher levels. Fluoride is also naturally occurring in the water in many parts of the world. Despite all the bad things about Hitler and Stalin, they certainly would prefer to have healthier citizens, what with the need to fight wars and all.

Complaining and protesting has not worked enough to safeguard all of our rights and the constitution, which is what I cling to because it shows me clearly my rights afforded to me by the founding fathers. I know the constitution is not perfect, but it is great.

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It's just that not enough people have been complaining. If enough other people felt the same way you did, Ron Paul would be the Republican nominee.

Chili sounds like a nice place! lol. So does Switzerland. I don't know, I am up in the air on this one. On one side I want to stay here and help where I can and stick around for a revolt. On one side I want to make a move for self preservation and overall happiness.

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Switzerland is pretty opposed to immigration though, even more than Lou Dobbs. A foreigner would have a hard time fitting in. And even though gun ownership is the norm, they do have a lot of restrictive laws. In Chile though, they love Americans. My mom once went to a clinic there and got moved to the front of the line, because the doctors wanted to show off for her how good their clinic was.

I do not make any money selling ganja. Haven't even harvested yet. I'd be happy to give up that sort of income for the legalization benefits. From fuel, to building materials, to the freedom to smoke and grow a plant. I make all my cash by making websites and optimizing them for search engines. And its all CASH.

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Hey, that's pretty sweet. All the more reason to move to a country like Chile where the average income is $5000 a year or so. You could live like a king. Of course, there's not much government regulation of the food supply, so expect a lot of pesticides and other chemicals in your food.

Revenge on the controllers of the federal reserve, IRS, war profiteers and tyrannical congresspeople who vote for BLATANTLY unconstitutional programs. For their obvious crimes. The federal reserve and IRS enslave us. When a portion of your paycheck is automatically taken from you, this to me, implies ownership of my labor. The war profiteers lobby to send troops to foreign countries and make 100 dollars on every load of military laundry, for once example, and supply dirty water to our troops. 1 example. Everything could fit in maybe a 1000 page book.

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Yeah, it pisses me off too, but taxes are inevitable. You have to at least pay for things like roads, schools, police, military, etc. Hence, taxes. But it's not all wasted. For instance, I'm glad that part of my tax dollars are going to the space program, I think that's really cool. Every time they get pictures back from a new telescope or a new probe, I'm really interested. And a lot of other scientific research done by the government is really interesting to me as well. Of course, a lot of it is BS, but that's inevitable too.

Doctor, just so I can get where you are coming from - what is YOUR view on the federal reserve?

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I don't view it as a malevolent entity, more of a necessary evil. An expanding money supply is necessary though, and if we tie it to some commodity like gold, it'll go nuts when the demand for that commodity changes. For instance, platinum has been going up as the demand for it increases due to its use in catalytic converters in cars. Plus, people like yourself have been hoarding precious metals, increasing prices for it. Personally, I'm investing in palladium. It's at a current low, and Russia's been selling off their stockpiles, so when they run out, well, we'll see how that goes.

Are you an American? Born here? You seem well traveled or just well studied on these other countries.

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Born in the US. My dad was a deserter during the Vietnam war and moved to Chile. He really liked it there, but moved back to the US eventually. He decided he wanted to move back for a few years with his family when I was a kid. It's a really cool country. A lot like the US in a lot of ways. Lots of German and Italian immigrants influenced the country, and the average income is higher than in most of Latin America. They're pretty socially conservative still, although it's moving the other way. Strong Catholic roots there. But Chile has a long history of free markets. The government gets most of their money from a few state-owned copper mines, but there are private mines as well. They did recently increase the taxes on alcohol, but only because alcohol is so cheap there that alcoholism is a huge problem. But yeah, I have a lot of experiences seeing some of the positive and negative effects of free markets.

What do you think about the IRS?

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A necessary evil. They said I owed them $4000, and I have to fill out forms now proving I don't. Bastards.

Legalization of M?

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In principle, yes. Really though? No. It wouldn't be cool if it was legal. That's a dumb reason to oppose it though, which is why I support it in principle.

Adding Fluoride to water? Adding fluoride to salt and bottled water in 2009? Making fluoride a necessary nutrient?

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I haven't been following water fluoridation news. But I grew up in a rural area with a well and no fluoride, so it never affected me much. And I have lots of cavities in my teeth.

What do you think about McCain and Obama? They are funded by the same banks, as with every candidate that ran other than Ron Paul, Kucinich and other "fringe" candidates.

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I campaigned for Obama in Pennsylvania and Ohio when he was running against Clinton. Got to shake his hand even. Although I'd prefer less government spending, I don't think anyone's going to change that much, and at least Obama is competent. I honestly don't think who donates money to them effects their decisions much. All it really gets them is face time with the candidates, which helps them understand their positions, and thus plan for the next election cycle. But someone who is more suspicious might presume that it's all a conspiracy, since the same companies are financing both candidates.

Do you think we would be better off with or without the constitution?

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No.

How about 911?

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Yes, we'd certainly be better off without that.

dknob said:

I like how Cecil doesnt just spout a bunch of bullshit like alot of people do when talking about fluoride. And he admits some of the flaws. However when fluoride is in all tap water, it gets everywhere and in everything. People are getting higher doses than is added to the water. Fluoride also hangs around in your body, you do not dispell all of it, and it builds up in your body. He also notes that even though water fluoridation has been credited with a decrease in dental caries, other countries without fluoridation have declined at the same rate. The US decline in dental caries made water fluoridation one of the top 10 medical discoveries of the 20th century. I think these other countries should make the lack of water fluoridation one of the top 10 medical discoveries of the 20th century lol.

Fluoride & the Brain
We are getting more fluoride than is put in the water. My concerns are not unwarrented. Yes the studies in my sig may lack controls necessary. They are independant of eachother. Im not going to just assume something other than the fluoride is the cause. But I know I cannot purely assume that fluoride is the one and only cause.

Click to expand...

Fluorine is an element, and fluoride is a naturally occurring mineral. Of course it's in lots of things in small quantities. Plus, the countries where the cavity rate is going down despite lack of water fluoridation are getting their fluoride from other sources, like fluoridized salt. You know, chromium is also an essential mineral, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to chug down a glass of that stuff.

I really do like that site I linked to, the Straight Dope. The guy is one of the least biased sources of information I know of, and quite entertaining to boot. All you stoners might be interested in this one too:

The Straight Dope: Is hemp (nonpharmacological marijuana) the answer to our environmental problems?

Doctor Pot said:

Anyway, you could just learn Spanish and move to Chile. The only tax there is sales tax, and the government mostly just keeps to itself. Heck, Milton Friedman helped design their economic policies. Internet access is also much better than you'd expect. The gun laws there are not as permissive as they are in the US, but it's way easier to get around laws there. And Chile has a much lower homicide rate than the US as well. Property is kind of expensive though; since there are no property taxes, there is a tendency for landowners to hoard it.

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Doctor Pot ...

You're making some very informative and well written posts. Thanks.

On Chile ... Yep, they have the national sales tax, just like the more conservative/libertarian thinkers here have been proposing. They also have privatized their Social Security program ... and the people are much more happy and well off because of it.

Now if only we can purge the Marxists out of OUR society ...

Vi

Kludge said:

The oath we take requires us to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, I would say what Bush has done is an attack on the Constitution so I would say it is their responsibility to arrest Bush and deliver him to the Hage to stand trial for crimes against humanity. Then we can just go nuke the middle east and be done with it.

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The Hague...

:: shakes his head :: you would surrender our national sovereignty to the Hague?

Why the hell do we need the Hague to judge him anyway, we can just tie him to a chair, and toss it in a lake. If he's still alive after 10 minutes then he's innocent, it he's not, well, then he was guilty.

ViRedd said:

Doctor Pot ...

You're making some very informative and well written posts. Thanks.

On Chile ... Yep, they have the national sales tax, just like the more conservative/libertarian thinkers here have been proposing. They also have privatized their Social Security program ... and the people are much more happy and well off because of it.

Now if only we can purge the Marxists out of OUR society ...

Vi

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Thanks. I don't mind making long researched posts as long as someone's going to actually learn something from them.

The trouble with sales taxes is they're regressive... poor people end up paying a larger share of their income as taxes than the rich do. The Chilean national pension plan, I believe invests their money in their local communities somehow, so they end up supporting their communities by saving for retirement. I forget how exactly it works.

I admit there are many benefits to Chile's system, HOWEVER there are some downsides as well. First, property is expensive since a lot of people buy and hold it, as there are no downsides to owning huge amounts of property. Second, they've had some real environmental catastrophes due to the lack of regulation. Santiago, the capital, is one of the most polluted cities in the world. There's a lot of pesticides, fungicides, etc. in food as well. And poverty is a big problem. You often see huge swaths of land covered with decrepit shacks. Interestingly enough, a common sight in Chile is a tiny, beat-up looking shack with a satellite dish on top. So maybe they just have different priorities.

Also, a lot of things that work in Chile might not work in other countries. Taxes are low mainly because the government makes so much money from state-owned copper mines, and pollution isn't as bad as it could be because of the huge amount of hydroelectric power available in the country.

Doctor Pot

Regressive? Actually even when I was making $8/hr, 3 years ago, I found myself in favor of a national sales tax (and this was before I learned about the prebate) that was attached to it, because I would see more money.

I disagree with your statement that sales taxes are regressive.

As far as our current system, is it not even more regressive. It punishes people who attain educational degrees. It punishes people for working, and punishes people for saving and investing.

"The constitution was written by men who lived over 200 years ago, not by gods. Since then, there have been many revisions and reinterpretations, and now we're where we are today. To treat it like, say, the Bible, is to ignore its origins and purpose. And while the interpretation of the constitution has changed over the last 200 years, our basic freedoms have not. We still have freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, and freedom from excessive government harassment."

This last sentence was shattered at the DNC and GOP conventions. We no longer have the freedom of speech, assembly and harassment, those who attempt to do both at the same time are now considered "terrorists". We are in deep shit my friend. Even if we wanted to march on DC, it can't be done anymore, I would love to try and I hope I'm able to go when the call is sounded. Campaign for liberty is headed in the right direction and is a group I would follow to the white house, some of the fringe groups not so much, well organized and with clear goals and values are needed to unify.

Chili sounds kinda Ok, if worried about the polution you can always become an activist there, sounds like we might be able to fight on a more even playing field there. Personally I like the idea of living in third world contries, at least you would know who to bribe.

TheBrutalTruth said:

Doctor Pot

Regressive? Actually even when I was making $8/hr, 3 years ago, I found myself in favor of a national sales tax (and this was before I learned about the prebate) that was attached to it, because I would see more money.

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A national sales tax would have to be like 30%, you know, on top of any state taxes. It would also have to be applied to everything. And it would kick off a black market which would be cool I admit, but the government would have to crack down on it which would suck. Try buying a house with taxes like that.

I disagree with your statement that sales taxes are regressive.

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Doesn't mean you're right.

Regressive, Progressive taxes/taxation explained.

As far as our current system, is it not even more regressive. It punishes people who attain educational degrees. It punishes people for working, and punishes people for saving and investing.

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Making something slightly less advantageous isn't the same as punishing.

So all those rich, multi house buying/owning Lepers will really get soaked?

Doctor Pot said:

Making something slightly less advantageous isn't the same as punishing.

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I disagree. By making it less-advantageous you are punishing any one that does it.

Are not jail terms for pot making smoking pot less-advantageous, and thus punishing it?

Dr. Pot ...

If you haven't read it, I'd like to recommend a book to you:

Scroll down and you'll find it on the right hand side:

http://www.fairtaxblog.com/cat/vs-flat-tax/

The Fair Tax has taken care of the regressive aspect of a national sales tax with a government rebate to cover necessary expenses like medicine, food and clothing.

Vi

Yeah, but the whole "fair tax" thing strikes me as involving government too much in our day-to-day transactions. I mean, how would they know how much money to give us back? And you have to admit it would lower consumption a lot. Our economy is driven by consumerism. And there's the whole black market thing that would happen when sales tax is up near 40%.

TBT - If I start a scholarship that's $1000, but then later change it to only $800, am I punishing the scholarship winner? Of course not. Likewise, it is still advantageous to make more money, get a good education, etc. Just, the income tax makes it somewhat less advantageous, though still advantageous overall.

Yes, but that's different. What we are arguing is if the government (which has a minimal claim to the money to begin with) increases how much they are taking of your paycheck, are you not being punished for what you are doing?

Or, here's an example. If you get a raise at work for busting your ass, and instead of seeing a net increase see a net decrease due to being in a higher tax bracket, are you not being punished for working harder at that point?

Your scholarship analogy doesn't compare to the issue of taxation, because you are using something that they wouldn't have had to begin with as the example. Taxes are taking something that the person has a valid claim to and taking it from them.

Doctor Pot said:

Yeah, but the whole "fair tax" thing strikes me as involving government too much in our day-to-day transactions. I mean, how would they know how much money to give us back? And you have to admit it would lower consumption a lot. Our economy is driven by consumerism. And there's the whole black market thing that would happen when sales tax is up near 40%.

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Well, ya just have to read the book. It has a great plot ... its all about the road to liberty.

http://www.fairtaxblog.com/cat/vs-flat-tax/

Vi

Got the FairTax book, that's how I learned about the prebate. Of course, even before I heard about that, I thought it was a great idea (even when I was just making $8/hr).

Unfortunately it doesn't solve the basic problem of the government spending too much, but it is a start towards encouraging thrift, savings, and investment instead of borrowing, debt and consumerism.

Sadly, borrowing, debt, and consumerism are all we have anymore. We're too damned rich for the rest of the world to hire us, and they work for so cheap that it doesn't make sense not to hire them. We still have the best education, IT jobs, and cutting-edge research, but your average schmuck doesn't work in those industries. At this point, getting rid of borrowing, debt, and consumerism would get rid of half of all American jobs. Hence, massive sales tax = bad for the US economy.

Yes, but that's different. What we are arguing is if the government (which has a minimal claim to the money to begin with) increases how much they are taking of your paycheck, are you not being punished for what you are doing?

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You are still making more money, and therefore not being "punished".

Or, here's an example. If you get a raise at work for busting your ass, and instead of seeing a net increase see a net decrease due to being in a higher tax bracket, are you not being punished for working harder at that point?

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It may happen on the edge of certain brackets, but if you're that close it's really easy to fudge your income tax return to get into a lower bracket. The typical case is, your income goes up, your taxes also go up, and you make more money but not as much as you would have made if your taxes didn't go up.

Your scholarship analogy doesn't compare to the issue of taxation, because you are using something that they wouldn't have had to begin with as the example. Taxes are taking something that the person has a valid claim to and taking it from them.

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So you're saying that the government doesn't have the right to impose any taxes?

homerdog said:

"We still have freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, and freedom from excessive government harassment."

This last sentence was shattered at the DNC and GOP conventions. We no longer have the freedom of speech, assembly and harassment, those who attempt to do both at the same time are now considered "terrorists". We are in deep shit my friend. Even if we wanted to march on DC, it can't be done anymore, I would love to try and I hope I'm able to go when the call is sounded. Campaign for liberty is headed in the right direction and is a group I would follow to the white house, some of the fringe groups not so much, well organized and with clear goals and values are needed to unify.

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I don't follow. Terrorists blow stuff up, or at least advocate doing so.

Chili sounds kinda Ok, if worried about the polution you can always become an activist there, sounds like we might be able to fight on a more even playing field there. Personally I like the idea of living in third world contries, at least you would know who to bribe.

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They're getting better as far as pollution. Santiago used to have dozens of bus routes and companies, and now they're all being merged together and with the subway system. Interestingly, Chile is one of the least corrupt countries in Latin America, which is admittedly not saying much, but on a global ranking they were only two behind the US in 2007.

Corruption Perceptions Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seriously, a lot of people generalize all of South America, but some of the countries there, especially Brazil, Uruguay, and Chile, maybe Argentina too, are essentially developed countries with more in common with us than with, say, Bolivia or Venezuela.