Why Do People Believe Weird Things... Confirmation Bias

Heisenberg said:
I shall have to research a bit about Dr. Lier before I make a post about the mistakes that lead to belief in aliens. But for the record, I said superstitions were silly, but the same mistakes can lead to bigger false beliefs like ghosts, aliens and god, which are in fact quite serious issues. When parents withhold medical treatment for their child to instead pray for them I think that is pretty serious. When scam artists charge you big money to facilitate talking to your dead loved ones, that is pretty serious. When entire groups of people are oppressed and abused simply because they don't believe in a certain god, that is often deadly serious.
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I would say then that your inability to view the experiences of others as nothing but supersition is your own confirmation bias, especially being that you will never have all the information to make a logical conclusion as to why they believe what they do...There really is no difference between the two as a matter of perception.
 
guy incognito said:
The more I read about Roger Leir the more silly I think he and anyone who believes in this stuff is.

Why have these chips not been reverse engineered? (or have they? - but why can't I find any info on it?) Why would they use radio waves to transmit information back to them as he claimed? I would think they must have mastered FTL travel in order to ever get to earth in the first place. If they can do that, AND find intelligent life on earth in the vast cosmos, how could they not have figured out how human biology works? Why is roger leir the only one who has removed these chips out of the millions of doctors on earth?

The whole thing wreaks of conspiracy theory and bullshit.
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We are humans. our sins include seeing patterns when there are none. be it relgion, be it the tiny piece of metal floating around in our leg MUST be because it is an alien device transmitting information back to surrounding motherships about what is going on with the characters on the show Glee.... it all fits...

But in all honesty from the other side of the coin it is MORE likely then not that there is life on Uropa as well as out in the universe. Since it exists here it should exist there too, nto to mention life should then exist on all levels of our reality not just the one we wanter around in (think atomic, think macro). But aliens being quiet about being here is as likely as god being as quiet about being here... or time travelers on cell phones in chaplin films. I'm not saying its 100% untrue, but I am saying if you want to believe that on faith then you sure as hell better be aperson that doesn't complain when someone believes they are a vampire, or someone thinks they are jesus. You better give them the respect you expect or you are a hypocrite.
 
The Ruiner said:
I would say then that your inability to view the experiences of others as nothing but supersition is your own confirmation bias, especially being that you will never have all the information to make a logical conclusion as to why they believe what they do...There really is no difference between the two as a matter of perception.
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They have a great episode of Penn & Tellers BullS*%T about him and his implants. I'm serious, its like season 2 or 3.
 
I would to hear what entertainers have to say about science...Usually right-wing debunkers do a really shitty job of doing such.
 
The Ruiner said:
I would say then that your inability to view the experiences of others as nothing but supersition is your own confirmation bias, especially being that you will never have all the information to make a logical conclusion as to why they believe what they do...There really is no difference between the two as a matter of perception.
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It's true that skeptics can develop a bias, but I don't think that is what is going on here. I was trying to distinguish between silly superstitions such as fearing a black cat, knocking on wood, ect and more serious beliefs like ghosts and alternative medical treatments. I simply pointed out that the same mistakes are responsible for silly and serious false beliefs alike. I am not saying that all others experiences amount to superstition. Things like psychic cold readings and spoon bending can be successfully performed using ordinary everyday tricks. Does that mean all psychics are using cold readings? Not necessarily, but it does offer a realistic explination which makes it unessesary to go looking for a paranormal one.
 
tardis said:
They have a great episode of Penn & Tellers BullS*%T about him and his implants. I'm serious, its like season 2 or 3.
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OK, I actually just watched that episode a few weeks ago, just didn't realize it was the same Dr.

The Ruiner said:
I would to hear what entertainers have to say about science...Usually right-wing debunkers do a really shitty job of doing such.
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Ad Hominem attack aka poisoning the well. tsk tsk

The Ruiner said:
So it seems that they never even explore the implants...they just attack Leir...

This falls under the category of "infotainment"
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Well they did make quite a bit of fun out of the fact that hes a foot doctor. "Did the aliens have to walk 10,000 light years to get here?" (and really, this is an unfair ad hominem attack on their part) Once they get serious they point out the fact that once Dr Leirs findings undergo peer review, they don't appear to be extraordinary at all. They offer alternative explanation as to what these 'implants' might be. They aren't made of material never seen on earth, in fact they are often fat deposites. They then go on to point out how odd it would be for aliens to travel light years, abduct people, erase their memory, only so they can leave fat deposits under their skin. Before moving on to other people, they point out the Dr. Leir was recently suspended from practicing three years due to gross negligence.
 
Heisenberg said:
It's true that skeptics can develop a bias, but I don't think that is what is going on here. I was trying to distinguish between silly superstitions such as fearing a black cat, knocking on wood, ect and more serious beliefs like ghosts and alternative medical treatments. I simply pointed out that the same mistakes are responsible for silly and serious false beliefs alike. I am not saying that all others experiences amount to superstition. Things like psychic cold readings and spoon bending can be successfully performed using ordinary everyday tricks. Does that mean all psychics are using cold readings? Not necessarily, but it does offer a realistic explination which makes it unessesary to go looking for a paranormal one.
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But just because your answer for one situation has been given, it does not mean that answer is applicable to a similar one. It offers one explanation for one situation.

Who gets to make the distinctions between silly and serious? It's not up to the logicians...its up to the individual.
 
Heisenberg said:
OK, I actually just watched that episode a few weeks ago, just didn't realize it was the same Dr.

Ad Hominem attack aka poisoning the well. tsk tsk



Well they did make quite a bit of fun out of the fact that hes a foot doctor. "Did the aliens have to walk 10,000 light years to get here?" (and really, this is an unfair ad hominem attack on their part) Once they get serious they point out the fact that once Dr Leirs findings undergo peer review, they don't appear to be extraordinary at all. They offer alternative explanation as to what these 'implants' might be. They aren't made of material never seen on earth, in fact they are often fat deposites. They then go on to point out how odd it would be for aliens to travel light years, abduct people, erase their memory, only so they can leave fat deposits under their skin. Before moving on to other people, they point out the Dr. Leir was recently suspended from practicing three years due to gross negligence.
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They offer an alternative, not a conclusion. And furthermore they didnt explore all 16 implants, nor their compositions (which leir does discuss along with chemists and nuclear physicists, which begs the question: did P&T do an honest job of exploring the issue? Or are they just entertaining you?).

They edited for what they wanted to end with "why would they leave fat deposits" as if their alternative was the conclusion and they have thoroughly explored the issue, definitively. No fucking way.

You are smarter than that I hope.
 
The Ruiner said:
But just because your answer for one situation has been given, it does not mean that answer is applicable to a similar one. It offers one explanation for one situation.

Who gets to make the distinctions between silly and serious? It's not up to the logicians...its up to the individual.
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It was an example of the approach, which is; lets try to find an ordinary explination for something before we go looking for paranormal. In addition lets try to explain and understand why, if this (fill in the blank) belief is false, what led people to accept these false beliefs, and why do they persist. When we can offer a realistic explination and demonstrate the mechanisms which lead to the unrealistic conclusion, I think that goes a long way to explain what is really going on. In the case of alien abductions, we have done exactly that.

You are sorta arguing over semantics here. I suppose I should have said 'simple' and 'complex' rather than 'silly' and 'serious'. When you try to figure out why people believe black cats crossing your path is bad luck, it's pretty simple. When you try to figure out why people believe in god, it's pretty complex. But really, throwing salt over your shoulder is pretty silly, wearing a lucky shirt for the big game is pretty silly, fearing the number 666 is pretty silly.
 
The Ruiner said:
They offer an alternative, not a conclusion. And furthermore they didnt explore all 16 implants, nor their compositions (which leir does discuss along with chemists and nuclear physicists, which begs the question: did P&T do an honest job of exploring the issue? Or are they just entertaining you?).

They edited for what they wanted to end with "why would they leave fat deposits" as if their alternative was the conclusion and they have thoroughly explored the issue, definitively. No fucking way.

You are smarter than that I hope.
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For sure. They spent about 5 min on him out of a 30 min program, and most of it was entertainingly funny. They touched on him because they were at a convention, and he was one of the big draws. They spent a little time with each of the big names bringing people into that particular convention.

I was trying to summarize for you that segment because you said,
Oh please share... I would to hear what entertainers have to say about science.
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Was just trying to fill you in on what they said, not endorse it. I may or may not agree with them upon doing my own research. Probably will though. :) I mean, when your findings dont survive peer review, that's pretty much the death nail.
 
Heisenberg said:
It was an example of the approach, which is; lets try to find an ordinary explination for something before we go looking for paranormal. In addition lets try to explain and understand why, if this (fill in the blank) belief is false, what led people to accept these false beliefs, and why do they persist. When we can offer a realistic explination and demonstrate the mechanisms which lead to the unrealistic conclusion, I think that goes a long way to explain what is really going on. In the case of alien abductions, we have done exactly that.

You are sorta arguing over semantics here. I suppose I should have said 'simple' and 'complex' rather than 'silly' and 'serious'. When you try to figure out why people believe black cats crossing your path is bad luck, it's pretty simple. When you try to figure out why people believe in god, it's pretty complex. But really, throwing salt over your shoulder is pretty silly, wearing a lucky shirt for the big game is pretty silly, fearing the number 666 is pretty silly.
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I can agree on seeking simple explanations first, but I cant agree with MAKING simple explanations (like that of P&T & Dr. Leir) when there cannot be a simple one found. If you are ending your "debunking" of superstitions with "well, it was probably just this..." then you have accomplished nothing and the questions remain unanswered.

Your ideas of simple versus complex are totally your own, for many people belief in god is simple...I am not arguing semantics, this is just manner in which debate must be done, using words...
 
Heisenberg said:
For sure. They spent about 5 min on him out of a 30 min program, and most of it was entertainingly funny. They touched on him because they were at a convention, and he was one of the big draws. They spent a little time with each of the big names bringing people into that particular convention.

I was trying to summarize for you that segment because you said, Was just trying to fill you in on what they said, not endorse it. I may or may not agree with them upon doing my own research. Probably will though. :) I mean, when your published findings dont survive peer review, that's pretty much the death nail.
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Death nail for whom? P&T didnt take this to other chemists or nuclear physicists that have worked with leir have they? They took it to another podiatrist ...Roger leir didnt do the chemical analysis himself of these objects, he only extracted them. He admits that he knows very little about the actual composition and has had other scientists evaluate them. It makes to logical sense to have a podiatrist do a peer review of something out of his scope of knowledge.
 
The Ruiner said:
Death nail for whom? P&T didnt take this to other chemists or nuclear physicists that have worked with leir have they? They took it to another podiatrist ...Roger leir didnt do the chemical analysis himself of these objects, he only extracted them. He admits that he knows very little about the actual composition and has had other scientists evaluate them. It makes to logical sense to have a podiatrist do a peer review of something out of his scope of knowledge.
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Nah I don't see what P&T did as peer review, not by a longshot. What they did or tired to do is create doubt. Doubt leads to questions. Questions lead to answers.

They did however state that his research doesn't pass peer review. This may not even be true, but I suspect it is since we haven't read about these implants in any credible medical journals. Of course I am assuming he hasn't been published, I haven't done my research yet... But if it is true then you have to conclude he is unpublished for one of two reasons... his lack of merit, or a giant global conspiracy among scientist.
 
Heisenberg said:
Nah I don't see what P&T did as peer review, not by a longshot. What they did or tired to do is create doubt. Doubt leads to questions. Questions lead to answers.

They did however state that his research doesn't pass peer review. This may not even be true, but I suspect it is since we haven't read about these implants in any credible medical journals. Of course I am assuming he hasn't been published, I haven't done my research yet... But if it is true then you have to conclude he is unpublished for one of two reasons... his lack of merit, or a giant global conspiracy among scientist.
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Well, believe or not, Dr. Leir and his team are actually trying to get a peer-reviewed scholarly article in ...I cant remember which journal, but it is reputable....They WANT answers, that's why they are doing what they are...Penn & Teller have no vested interest in finding answers, they have a vested interest in keeping diminished attention spans of those who fancy themselves as informed because they watched some bullshit show of theirs.
 
tardis said:
I have faith that Ronald McDonald made God. That he manifests thru McDonalds. If you don't have faith in that like I do then you are just simply unable to see the truth, you are blind. Open your heart to Ronald McDonald and your soul will live forever! You see, Ronald McDonald made God, who made creation, who made scientific theory who made evolution. Don't you see it all goes back to Ronald McDonald, have faith or you'll burn in taco hell forever.
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I worship the Hamburglar...:fire:

:leaf::peace::leaf:
 
The Ruiner said:
Well, believe or not, Dr. Leir and his team are actually trying to get a peer-reviewed scholarly article in ...I cant remember which journal, but it is reputable....They WANT answers, that's why they are doing what they are...Penn & Teller have no vested interest in finding answers, they have a vested interest in keeping diminished attention spans from those who fancy themselves as informed because they watched some bullshit show of theirs.
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Well when he gets published be sure to let us know. I would be extremely interested in reading the article. If actual credible evidence of aliens is found that would be an exciting and game changing event. I would be happy to be alive during something like that. But for now, I will continue to doubt.
 
Heisenberg said:
Well when he gets published be sure to let us know. I would be extremely interested in reading the article. If actual credible evidence of aliens is found that would be an exciting and game changing event. I would be happy to be alive during something like that.
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Well, the reality is that he already has it...he is just trying to get it published. I can tell you understand what that means, it would be huge. But just because it doesnt have mainstream acceptance doesnt mean it is any less true...

Remember Galileo.
 
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