Why all the arguments over LED vs HPS ?

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Just between us old folks here, the 330s' where made for 400 watt HPS ballast. the 400s' were for the 400 watt MH ballast. Still got 6 of the philips 400 CDM's left from 2 cases I picked up many years ago.
The Phillips 250 Watt or 400 Watt Ceramic Metal Halide bulbs run on either an HPS ballast or Life Light digital ballast. The 400 Watt ceramic metal halide is Philips' first commercially available grow light, developed to suit growing plants indoor.

This is the one I'm talking about and runs off magnetic hps ballasts. I researched them really well before thinking of buying any.

400WattCeramic1.jpg

400WattCeramic3.jpg

This is the spectral output of the "new" CMH lights. Very similar.

315WCMH.jpg

I agree with some of this. It have to say the old cmh bulbs share virtually nothing with the new ones and it will happen to led too.
The 315s have virtually the same spectrum as the older 400W Philips so other than the 400 being more powerful they are almost identical. GE makes a 400 CMH as do a few others. I'd like one that works in a 400W metal halide ballast as I have one of those too tho the hps ones would be fine for veg.

:peace:
 

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
That's a great idea, although I must ask out of curiosity if it would increase or reduce damp/mold?. I'm one of those guys who always thinks a pro comes with a con, it is a curse o0. Well.. maybe if you look at it the other way around it's a blessing.

I use a 70 pint de humidifier
 

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
The Phillips 250 Watt or 400 Watt Ceramic Metal Halide bulbs run on either an HPS ballast or Life Light digital ballast. The 400 Watt ceramic metal halide is Philips' first commercially available grow light, developed to suit growing plants indoor.

This is the one I'm talking about and runs off magnetic hps ballasts. I researched them really well before thinking of buying any.

View attachment 3964203

View attachment 3964201

This is the spectral output of the "new" CMH lights. Very similar.

View attachment 3964202



The 315s have virtually the same spectrum as the older 400W Philips so other than the 400 being more powerful they are almost identical. GE makes a 400 CMH as do a few others. I'd like one that works in a 400W metal halide ballast as I have one of those too tho the hps ones would be fine for veg.

:peace:

They have way less ppfd per watt. Spectrum is useless without intensity.
 

Lola Grows

Well-Known Member
They were on my list of choices. Also the prices have been lowered recently. Thank you for that information it helps because you're actually running the lights not guessing.
I don't push people one way or another nor have any vested interest in any companies. I do like trying tech as it's my hobby and try and push the limits, sometimes it's a fail, sometimes it works out.

I've used some of those older blurple panels (fail for flowering Imo) and still using some I bought 4+ years ago (Top LED which was bought out by Mars) for vegging, they veg well and I like the transition from blurple to flowering lights (CMH or COBs), makes them explode nicely when they hit the flowering lights. They worked for flowering but from a yield stand point you may as well flower with hps, you'll get much better yields. Of course at the cost of managing heat which is certainly doable, many folks have done it for years. It's just tougher to dial in hps and get higher efficiency yields, but it's done by many.

@a mongo frog had a good suggestion on the 315w CMH kits, if you think you can manage some heat those 315w bulbs cover off 3x3' really well, up to 3.5x3.5 ok, but 4x4' you'd be lacking coverage and 2x 315's would be overkill and give you a hard time managing heat. Slightly less heat than hps as. the 315's are very efficient, equivalent to somewhere in the 400-450 hps range, less wattage, less heat. I used that tech for a couple of years before a recent switch to COBs and I'd peg it as the best bulb tech available. Something in the spectrum tends to finish most strains faster as well, most of my strains finished in 7-8 weeks under the 315's.

More recently like the last year or so I converted the room in steps to COBs. Don't have time/space to build myself so bought some Tasty 3590 COB's driven at 1400ma, have 3x 100w, 2x (dimmable) 150w bars, and recently added 1x 200w bar of dimmable Citizen 1212 COBs. Main difference I saw between CMH and COBs was the terpenes and frost jumped another level, once I converted 1/2 the room and saw the yields (about the same watt-for-watt as CMH) and noticed a significant difference in terpenes loudness, I converted the whole room to COBs. Expensive up-front but best quality I've ever grown.

I think the big issue people have with blurples and particularly Chinese companies selling them stems from the way they over-hype/advertise and straight up lie about what the lights can do. Imo they give LED's in general a bad name. They also tend to be behind the curve in the tech they use in the lights which can make a huge difference in yields and quality. An example of that is the Advanced LED's you mentioned. If you look at their specs (which are light on details) you'll notice that their lights with COBs (mixed with 5w or 10w LED diodes) mention they are "CXA" COBs. Because they don't specify CXA-3590, I can almost guarantee they are CXA-3070's which are 2-3 generations behind the current CXB-3590 COBs. I've used and still use some CXA-3070 COBs in my breeding tent which I've had for ~3 years. While they are good, they produce ~25% less than the CXB-3590's I run, and the terpenes/quality while good aren't the same. I would flower with the 315w CMH before using CXA-3070's, only reason I haven't used them in the breeding tent is that tent is 2x2x4' and would end up at 110F throwing the CMH in there.

Which brings me to one last point in my long winded reply. No matter what lighting tech you use, it's an important but not overriding factor in how your yields or quality results. The environment, medium, nutes, water, all have to balance or you won't get the most benefit. In other words, if you're producing .5g/sq.ft. under hps and simply change your lights, don't expect to magically jump to 1.5 gpw, you'll be disappointed with any tech you upgrade to.
Now that's how you explain lighting. I had to read it twice ( I'll admit) but you somehow made me understand. Your grows are EVERYTHING so of course I'm listening.
 

Lola Grows

Well-Known Member
I'm a diehard HID user because it's all I've used since '82 for getting big buds. I have magnetic ballasts that are probably older than a lot of growers here and they keep pumping out the lumens. I do use fluoros for early veg and seedlings/clones but they go under MH light before too long to get the best growth.

These newer COB LEDS show the best promise since LEDs started getting used to grow pot but the technology is still in it's infancy and I'm too poor to experiment with them. I might not live long enough to get back what they cost up front in energy savings so no rush to dive in.

CMH lights aren't new. They've been around for 15 years and Philips used to make a 400W that ran in a 400W HPS magnetic ballast of which I have three. Same kind of spectrum that the 315W have. They were dirt cheap as they were made for retrofitting warehouse/stadium lighting to get brighter light that is truer to natural colours and not for growing plants. Can run those from sprout to crop and get great results. I almost bought a case of 6 for $300 but couldn't come up with the coin. There are other companies that make them now but I'm all stocked up on bulbs.

Not to start a flame war or anything but with most of the grows I've seen using regular LEDS the buds aren't near as big or chunky as what you can get with HIDs unless you run as many real watts worth as you would with HIDs. COBs may alter that perception but I haven't looked into it that deeply.

And for fug sakes folks it was bad enough looking at orange plants but all these blurple/pink ones are even worse! :D
I just got off of work, Idk what happened to this thread!! Oh my goodness. Thank you for your input. It's a few of you on RIU, who's opinions mean a lot to me and you're one of them. Still waiting on that book ( I was serious) now I'm bummed because they ran growerr away and he's another ones who's opinion I value. This sucks
 

Lola Grows

Well-Known Member
He's an LED nerd. It's all they know how to do.

Ask 10 LED guys which one is the best and you'll get 10 different answers.

Ask any MH/HPS guy which one is the best and they'll tell you they're pretty much all the same and have very similar results.

I've said it 1000 times and I'll say it again: The biggest problems with LED are:
  • Idiots that spread a shitload of misinformation about them.
  • VERY cheap LED lights that aren't worth a shit flooding the market.
  • Relatively FEW lighting companies producing very good products with proper documentation.
That leads to pretty much 80% of everything you hear about LED's being complete bullshit.

Are there good ones? Yes. And they're damn good. VERY good. But they're also VERY expensive to the point that the additional cost simply can not be justified at this time.

Now, if heat is going to be an issue for you, then you should SERIOUSLY consider LED lighting, but only the very high end, quality stuff.

Yes, it's going to be pricey. But what you'll wind up with in the end is around a 25% reduction in heat for the same amount of light. (I've covered this in detail elsewhere on this forum and I'm sick of posting all the math for people that don't bother to read it.)

Other than heat issues, there really is no quantifiable difference between high end LED/COB and MH/HPS at all.

That's it in a nutshell.
Yay!!!!! That's what I was waiting to hear. No real difference just a personal choice.
 

Underground Scientist

Well-Known Member
I just got off of work, Idk what happened to this thread!! Oh my goodness. Thank you for your input. It's a few of you on RIU, who's opinions mean a lot to me and you're one of them. Still waiting on that book ( I was serious) now I'm bummed because they ran growerr away and he's another ones who's opinion I value. This sucks
I think you have a fair amount of information, next is to start a thread just based on your grows, what your doing, and it serves as a journal for you, then you'll find a few cool grow buddies, and admire each other's work and brainstorm a bit. Happy Growing :bigjoint:
 

Lola Grows

Well-Known Member
I think you have a fair amount of information, next is to start a thread just based on your grows, what your doing, and it serves as a journal for you, then you'll find a few cool grow buddies, and admire each other's work and brainstorm a bit. Happy Growing :bigjoint:
Thank you !! I really did gain lots of good information. I'll do it with the next one. I'm unhappy with the flowering this run ( buds are just small ) so I won't waste time posting anymore pics ( unless someone wants to see the itty bitty buds lol ) you've all been super groovy. I'll be way more prepared for this next run.
 

Lola Grows

Well-Known Member
Yea but they are great gardeners, and might be able to help in a pinch.
Some of the best ( imo) were right here on this thread and I can ask them anything and get a mature reply. Some of the guys here are mean spirited and they aren't trying to help just argue. I'm not here to watch a dick swinging contest, I just wanna grow like the ones who've been doing this before I was even born. I'm a sponge soaking up helpful information not foolishness. People need to behave .
 

HazednConfused

Well-Known Member
Some of the best ( imo) were right here on this thread and I can ask them anything and get a mature reply. Some of the guys here are mean spirited and they aren't trying to help just argue. I'm not here to watch a dick swinging contest, I just wanna grow like the ones who've been doing this before I was even born. I'm a sponge soaking up helpful information not foolishness. People need to behave .
Would you at least attend one dick swinging contest?
I'll help you though lol
 
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