Who Pays Income Taxes?

Mr Neutron · Sep 22, 2012

UncleBuck said:
thanks for pointing out your own false equivalence.

there is a legal penalty for not filing.

there is no legal penalty for not signing a W4.

but you try to make them equivalent. that's me pointing out where your argument fails.

While there can be a case made for not signing a W-4 (if you're in a position where you don't need to get hired as an employee)... NOBODY escapes the IRS.
Do you deny that the IRS says that tax compliance is voluntary?

UncleBuck · Sep 22, 2012

Mr Neutron said:
While there can be a case made for not signing a W-4 (if you're in a position where you don't need to get hired as an employee)... NOBODY escapes the IRS.
Do you deny that the IRS says that tax compliance is voluntary?

i make no claims about that.

i assert as true that no one has ever been forced to sign a W4.

OLD DUDE · Sep 22, 2012

If Mitt would have claimed all the deductions that he actually could have claimed, he would have paid less than 10%!!!!

Mr Neutron · Sep 22, 2012

UncleBuck said:
i make no claims about that.

i assert as true that no one has ever been forced to sign a W4.

Is coercion force?

Wolfhound · Sep 22, 2012

Most of the population that recieves benefits get them paid for by the top 5% of those "rich" people they hate so much . . . And yet rather than pay ANY taxes most want the "rich" taxed more.
Kinda sounds like real obumma socialism along the "New World Order" line.
Help dump obumma before he totally destroys our way of life & world standing.

UncleBuck · Sep 22, 2012

Mr Neutron said:
Is coercion force?

no one has ever been coerced into signing a W4. it is a voluntary action. if you're not willing to sign it, you don't have to sign it.

your question is stupid to anyone with a dictionary.

[h=3]co·erce/kōˈərs/[/h]

Verb:

Persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats.

Mr Neutron · Sep 22, 2012

UncleBuck said:
no one has ever been coerced into signing a W4. it is a voluntary action. if you're not willing to sign it, you don't have to sign it.

your question is stupid to anyone with a dictionary.

co·erce/kōˈərs/

Verb:

Persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats.

So when a 16 yr old kid goes out into the world to get his first job and the man behind the desk that holds the authority to hire or not, tells this young person he needs to sign this paper and the young person says "why?", he is told, if you want to work here or any place else, you're going to have to sign one of these... that's not coercion?

UncleBuck · Sep 22, 2012

Mr Neutron said:
So when a 16 yr old kid goes out into the world to get his first job and the man behind the desk that holds the authority to hire or not, tells this young person he needs to sign this paper and the young person says "why?", he is told, if you want to work here or any place else, you're going to have to sign one of these... that's not coercion?

that's a voluntary decision that he can make.

Mr Neutron · Sep 22, 2012

UncleBuck said:
that's a voluntary decision that he can make.

Spoken like a true statist.
"You can either voluntarily comply with the state stealing your money or you can go to hell." Very compassionate.

Dr Kynes · Sep 22, 2012

UncleBuck said:
what is the legal penalty for not signing a W4?

NOTHING.

you must consent to taxation.

the w-4 is not taxation it is withholding to assist in taxation.

while it is "Voluntary" on your part it is not voluntary on your employers part. choosing to not sign also chooses to not be hired.

it is the freedom to starve or go on the dole or the freedom to submit to a taking before the tax law says that you may be took.

UncleBuck · Sep 22, 2012

Mr Neutron said:
Spoken like a true statist.
"You can either voluntarily comply with the state stealing your money or you can go to hell." Very compassionate.

how can they steal your money if you voluntarily sign the W4 and give them consent to take your money?

also, false dichotomy. there are many, many other options other than "go to hell".

UncleBuck · Sep 22, 2012

Dr Kynes said:
while it is "Voluntary" on your part it is not voluntary on your employers part.

has anyone ever been forced to start become an employer?

Mr Neutron · Sep 22, 2012

UncleBuck said:
how can they steal your money if you voluntarily sign the W4 and give them consent to take your money?

also, false dichotomy. there are many, many other options other than "go to hell".

Enlighten us.

UncleBuck · Sep 22, 2012

Mr Neutron said:
Enlighten us.

not in the enlightenment business. i am in the business of destroying specious arguments.

Mr Neutron · Sep 22, 2012

UncleBuck said:
not in the enlightenment business. i am in the business of destroying specious arguments.

You better find a new business, then, you're not very good at this one.

Dr Kynes · Sep 22, 2012

UncleBuck said:
thanks for pointing out your own false equivalence.

there is a legal penalty for not filing.

there is no legal penalty for not signing a W4.

but you try to make them equivalent. that's me pointing out where your argument fails.

the "w-4 wage and tax withholding agreement" form is a tool of taxation. it takes your dough and attempts to ensure that the government takes just a little too much (or a lot in the case of some) to "encourage" the voluntary filing and reporting of the tax return, without this "voluntary compliance" the IRS would have to file a return for each of us based on the numbers they can find, then send us a bill which we may or may not pay promptly resulting in more expense for collections, prosecution, prisons etc...

it's much easier to force compliance if they already have what they want and you have to request the excess be returned to you.

the w-4 and it's withholding is not actually taxation, it's a pre-tax maneuver to force "voluntary compliance" upon those who might be tempted to resist. it exists for the convenience of the tax man, not the tax payer.

UncleBuck · Sep 22, 2012

Mr Neutron said:
You better find a new business, then, you're not very good at this one.

says the man who had to concede my point that signing a W4 is a voluntary action.

UncleBuck · Sep 22, 2012

Dr Kynes said:
the "w-4 wage and tax withholding agreement" form is a tool of taxation. it takes your dough and attempts to ensure that the government takes just a little too much (or a lot in the case of some) to "encourage" the voluntary filing and reporting of the tax return, without this "voluntary compliance" the IRS would have to file a return for each of us based on the numbers they can find, then send us a bill which we may or may not pay promptly resulting in more expense for collections, prosecution, prisons etc...

it's much easier to force compliance if they already have what they want and you have to request the excess be returned to you.

the w-4 and it's withholding is not actually taxation, it's a pre-tax maneuver to force "voluntary compliance" upon those who might be tempted to resist. it exists for the convenience of the tax man, not the tax payer.

sounds like a nice scheme they got going there.

Mr Neutron · Sep 22, 2012

UncleBuck said:
says the man who had to concede my point that signing a W4 is a voluntary action.

Yeah, it's voluntary, just the same as it is voluntary to hand over your wallet when the man with the gun says he wants your money... it's coercion any way you slice it. Coercion is not voluntary. Look it up.

Dr Kynes · Sep 22, 2012

UncleBuck said:
sounds like a nice scheme they got going there.

rather like the "company stores" of the 1890's-1920's

no matter how hard you try they always rake off enough to keep you goin back to the mill.

[video=youtube;DAtSw3daGoo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtSw3daGoo[/video]

this ones for you mr neutron! enjoy the flavours.

Who Pays Income Taxes?

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