Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

RPsmoke420 said:

Hey Matt

Had a couple questions I thought I'd throw your way. I attended one of Kyle's classes and it got me interested in trying this out. Awesome thread.

Can you mix hygrozyme or cannazyme in the same reservoir with your beneficials/microherd? And allow them to sit/aerate? Should I be feeding with them every watering?

How much molasses do you generally use?

I remember Kyle Kushman talking about using both Hygrozyme AND sensizyme or Cannazyme. Do you know anything more about using both enzyme products?

Opinions on SM-90? I think I saw you use wet betty, but I just read front to back... so I could be wrong.

Do you use Nectar's Nature Nitrogen for every feeding in veg? What about their P ? And you do not use their K at all? Only use the Soluble Seaweed?

Thanks

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Alright I'll start by saying that Kyle and I don't grow exactly the same. I'm still using up the last of my cannazyme, and the usual hygrozyme. I use a different carb sources, and some other stuff.

Yes, you can mix the -zymes, BUT don't add them until the second before you start watering. They do not and should not be bubbled with your beneficial organisms.

I'm not sold on the bubbling your beneficial organisms to make them grow, endomyco only grows in the presence of roots. I am only assuming that by bubbling the powder inoculants you are promoting the bacteria over the endomyco, which is self defeating as the endomyco will provide the precious PK for flowers. Kushman and I agree to disagree over many things and truth is the facts are just being revealed about Cannabis specific products like myco madness and great white.

Molasses: depends on the stage of life cycle. Right now, early veg for me, I'm using 3mL/gal. Kushman doesn't use molasses, he uses HN honey es. I'll go up to a tsp/gal (5mL) then to tbsp/gallon for a little in crucial flower formation time (weeks 3-6 flower).

SM:90 - boo. more and more I'm thinking aloe vera juice is the way to go for saponins. after my wet betty is gone (which will take forever because i use very little) i will be using something that I can buy bulk for cheap, like aloe vera juice from trader joes. or some bulk yucca powder.

Natures Nectar N : used as needed, gotta read your plants. yellow lower leaves means you need more N. you can step up the vega or go with NN-nitrogen if that is all they really need.

Natures Nectar P/K: dropped from the system, not vegan. Humboldt Nutes natural bloom 0-10-0 and the technaflora is all you need. Use as needed. I don't start using the supplements until late veg or flower usually. Then as needed. The demands will vary by strain and environment.

would u consider eggshells vegan?
they r pretty much made of calcium...

Was wondering if anybody has seen products offered from a company called Emerald Isle Solutions. They make fertilizers and bio-stimulants, many containing sea plant extracts (some also contain fish extracts though). They are readily available to me in my industry and easy for me to buy. I'm a noob and am very intrigued by growing using this method and thought some of the products would be an option.

moash said:

would u consider eggshells vegan?
they r pretty much made of calcium...

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Technically I would not consider egg shells vegan. BUT if you or your friends own those chickens I would not really worry about using a non-vegan Ca source. I'm no vegan nazi, local is always good.

Matt Rize - Alright I'll start by saying that Kyle and I don't grow exactly the same. I'm still using up the last of my cannazyme, and the usual hygrozyme. I use a different carb sources, and some other stuff.

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Right on. I am not set on "Kushman's" way. I am open. Just trying to learn what I can about the ideas behind "Veganics".

So you are not planning on replacing the cannazyme? Continue to use Hygrozyme?

Yes, you can mix the -zymes, BUT don't add them until the second before you start watering. They do not and should not be bubbled with your beneficial organisms.

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Got it. Makes sense

I'm not sold on the bubbling your beneficial organisms to make them grow, endomyco only grows in the presence of roots. I am only assuming that by bubbling the powder inoculants you are promoting the bacteria over the endomyco, which is self defeating as the endomyco will provide the precious PK for flowers. Kushman and I agree to disagree over many things and truth is the facts are just being revealed about Cannabis specific products like myco madness and great white.

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My understanding was that by bubbling the inoculates... you were "bringing them to life" so to speak. Making them more active. Allowing them to "hit the ground running" when introduced to your media. Just thinking out loud man.

Molasses: depends on the stage of life cycle. Right now, early veg for me, I'm using 3mL/gal. Kushman doesn't use molasses, he uses HN honey es. I'll go up to a tsp/gal (5mL) then to tbsp/gallon for a little in crucial flower formation time (weeks 3-6 flower).

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Great info.

SM:90 - boo. more and more I'm thinking aloe vera juice is the way to go for saponins. after my wet betty is gone (which will take forever because i use very little) i will be using something that I can buy bulk for cheap, like aloe vera juice from trader joes. or some bulk yucca powder.

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Very cool. Would be interested to see which route you go and how you like it. Would love an alternative to the pricey counter stuff. Have been told about Aloe, just haven't tried it. Also was told Soapwort (I assume the essential oils... but I am not about to make room to grow Soapwort to extract the oils. haha) The Yucca powder acts as a foaming agent, right? Wonder how that would work. Just about out of my SM-90 so up to try something.

Natures Nectar N : used as needed, gotta read your plants. yellow lower leaves means you need more N. you can step up the vega or go with NN-nitrogen if that is all they really need.

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Good deal. Was just curious. Seemed like a lot of N at first. Makes sense.

Natures Nectar P/K: dropped from the system, not vegan. Humboldt Nutes natural bloom 0-10-0 and the technaflora is all you need. Use as needed. I don't start using the supplements until late veg or flower usually. Then as needed. The demands will vary by strain and environment.

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Thanks for all the info

So... Just some random stoned questions: do you give your plants a heavy "boost" as they transition into flowering? Do you keep feeding N into flowering?

RPsmoke420 said:

So you are not planning on replacing the cannazyme? Continue to use Hygrozyme?

My understanding was that by bubbling the inoculates... you were "bringing them to life" so to speak. Making them more active. Allowing them to "hit the ground running" when introduced to your media. Just thinking out loud man.

So... Just some random stoned questions: do you give your plants a heavy "boost" as they transition into flowering? Do you keep feeding N into flowering?

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Yeah, I'm not sold this this, "buy every vegan product you can to get bigger yields" style that Kushman is into. I'm into quality and simplicity. For now, I think hygrozyme alone will suffice as the other products are just damn expensive. I need to do a test, half the garden with one -zyme, the other half with two... I need a commercial testing facility, but 19 failed so that's out of the question. Oh well. Probably for the best that monsanto isn't growing herb.

Bringing inoculants to life can apply to free living bacteria and fungi, but endomyco spores do not activate until they contact a root. so I can't pretend that bubbling endomyco does anything other than mix the spores well. Products like alaskan humisoil teas are bubbled to separate the microbes from the dirt, as much as they are to propagate the contained microbes.

Yes, I keep feeding N into flower, weeks in all honesty with the Biocanna line. I use bioboost as the transition signal, and it works wonders. I do not boost ppm, I think that was your question. I actually am over the "spike" theory, that you can boost ppm to force the plants to respond. I keep ppm increases very gradual, and in fact feed about half as strong as kushman through the entire cycle. I also grow under 600 watt lights instead of 1000. And I prefer underfed to overfed herbs any day.

My ganja smokes way better than kushmans. His ganja is way stronger.

haha well I like simple! Actually I just picked up some Cannazyme the other day. Haven't used it before. Figure I'd give it a shot along with the hygrozyme. See what happens I guess.

I haven't played with any "spike" in PPM since leaving the chemical ferts. Learning as I go. Was just curious. I think it may allow more bud sites early on, but have never done a side by side. Like you, I use 600w and always choose to underfeed. I grow medicine, and quality is priority.

So are you sticking with the Biocanna line? Even with the synthetics? I have tried the new GO line of "vegan" nutes. Was happy with it outdoors, but worry about the source. I also feel you need to up your micronute additive when using it but haven't used it enough to say for sure. An article you posted awhile back on the review of the Biocanna line said Earthjuice was a close second as far as flavor and such? hmmm

I have a truly vegan recipe,

I get seaweed and kelp that washes up on the beach and compost it with organic fruits, then make tea from it. It is great stuff, no animal waste and, you dont have to buy anything except fruit to eat and compost.

RPsmoke420 said:

haha well I like simple! Actually I just picked up some Cannazyme the other day. Haven't used it before. Figure I'd give it a shot along with the hygrozyme. See what happens I guess.

I haven't played with any "spike" in PPM since leaving the chemical ferts. Learning as I go. Was just curious. I think it may allow more bud sites early on, but have never done a side by side. Like you, I use 600w and always choose to underfeed. I grow medicine, and quality is priority.

So are you sticking with the Biocanna line? Even with the synthetics? I have tried the new GO line of "vegan" nutes. Was happy with it outdoors, but worry about the source. I also feel you need to up your micronute additive when using it but haven't used it enough to say for sure. An article you posted awhile back on the review of the Biocanna line said Earthjuice was a close second as far as flavor and such? hmmm

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Yes, I am sticking with Biocanna. The results have been mind blowing. I can deal with small amount of synthetic micronutes. Earth juice is great, but far from vegan. GO: i heard straight from the mouth of the owner that GO needs time to perfect. And it is even less organic than biocanna. As far as I've seen Canna makes the best nutes on the earth, both synthetic and vegan organic. Biocanna is the only vegan organic formula to be approved in Oregon.

akgrown said:

I have a truly vegan recipe,

I get seaweed and kelp that washes up on the beach and compost it with organic fruits, then make tea from it. It is great stuff, no animal waste and, you dont have to buy anything except fruit to eat and compost.

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SICK! I've been investigating kelp harvesting, and heard that I shouldn't use the stuff washed up, but harvest the live kelp from the water. Can you post your kelp preparation techniques? Thanks!

I do use the stuff that washes up but if it looks like its been there awhile i pass, I then soak it in fresh water to remove the salt buildups, then I throw it into the compost pile. Pretty simple, avoid kelp that is covered in flies as it probably has something dead inside, also use only the leafy parts, i dont take the bulbs or the stalks home. Get an airtight container though, it will stink your car up in a hurry.

akgrown said:

I do use the stuff that washes up but if it looks like its been there awhile i pass, I then soak it in fresh water to remove the salt buildups, then I throw it into the compost pile. Pretty simple, avoid kelp that is covered in flies as it probably has something dead inside, also use only the leafy parts, i dont take the bulbs or the stalks home. Get an airtight container though, it will stink your car up in a hurry.

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great advice here. I've heard from several sources to use the leafy parts and not the giant tubes that wash up on the shore. Good tips about flies too, that is why I was told to harvest it myself living.

Not bubble related but I wanted to give a link to this CBD thread I started.

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/386957-cbd-truth-told.html

Here is the intro:
"Today I want to to post about CBD. First is the basics to explain what CBD is and why it is important. Then some really killer insight from Sam the Skunkman about smoking pure THC and other pure compounds. After that we look at high CBD strains in a peer reviewed article about the effectiveness of CBD from the Society of Cannabis Clinicians."

Peace all

Awesome thread! Been following it, and fits hand in hand with bio-dynamic vegetable farming techniques we practice...except stuffing cow horns with manure but i bet you could do it with plants/vegan food waste and fermenting them in barrels in the ground brewing microbes etc....A whole new world has opened up to veganics! would like to know how they brew all these kelp extracts and beet sugars etc and plant proteins like the Natures Nectar nitrogen.....so we can start experimenting at home...thats the real future, using plants found in nature locally....

Matt Rize said:

My ganja smokes way better than kushmans. His ganja is way stronger.

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When you say stronger, do you mean potency, or thickness of smoke, or flavor, or?

This is a great thread. Im getting ready to give your style a shot. All the ingrediants are gathered just waiting for some bubba cuts to pop roots!

summitoker said:

When you say stronger, do you mean potency, or thickness of smoke, or flavor, or?

This is a great thread. Im getting ready to give your style a shot. All the ingrediants are gathered just waiting for some bubba cuts to pop roots!

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My most recent crop, the Blackberry Kush, is ultra smooth/tasty, but peaks out around 16% THC. Blackberry is not a potent THC strain. I feed light and start flushing super early. Kushman on the other hand has been growing Stardawg, a chem dawg back cross that peaks around 23% THC. As you are aware, Chem dawg can take tons of fertz, just about any fertz of any quality, and do well. But the smoke is harsh, and the high is unfocused. He is very aware of yield, I could give a damn about yield, as taste of smoke is my no. 1 priority.

When kushman told me my blackberry kush is better than his blackberry kush, I figured out it was because I feed about half as strong as he does. Then I watched him garden and found out he was cheating his ass off (animal products and synthetic flower boosts), while calling his flowers vegan, there were in fact not. So he tried my herb, asked why it was so much better than his, and I told him I wasn't following his system, but doing my own truly vegan system, now he grows truly vegan in a manner similar to myself. He understands that using any animal or synthetics is not allowed, but we both had the issue of using up our old nutes...

We argue over the system constantly, and each do our own thing. I like to use bulk organic food ingredients like molasses and sucanat, while he likes to use HN Honey ES. I like to foliar feed, he doesn't. I intentionally only grow three lbs at a time... he on the other hand lol. I like to use a fulvic acid, he doesn't. I use white widow and great white and myco madness, he uses myco madness and azospirillium. He uses Biolink for vegan N source, I use Natures Nectar N, also vegan. He uses cocowet, I use wet betty. I use hygrozme and cannazyme, he uses hygrozyme and one of the other zymes.

Any thoughts on Bio-Genesis? They make Mineral Matrix. They have a couple other products available as well.

Do you use a micronutrient supplement?

*edit*-Bio-Genesis is made by Green Air Products I believe.

RPsmoke420 said:

Any thoughts on Bio-Genesis? They make Mineral Matrix. They have a couple other products available as well.

Do you use a micronutrient supplement?

*edit*-Bio-Genesis is made by Green Air Products I believe.

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We both use the mineral matrix. its is one of the best vegan products available. It gets used in small amounts, literally a few drops per gallon, throughout the cycle for advanced growth. I also use for foliar feeding if I have micronute issues. The big thing to know is that the matrix has no Ca. I also use cal/mag, pretty much all the time, because I mix RO and small boy water. In the winter I need the extra Ca/Mg, in the summer our water gets so shitty that I don't have to use any Ca/Mg, and I use less small boy and more RO. I try to keep my starting water at around 100 ppm. I found that trying to adjust your nutes to seasonal water changes is way harder than standardizing your water pH and ppm.

Harvesting my little plant that has only been given vegan additives/supplements tomorrow!

upthearsenal said:

Harvesting my little plant that has only been given vegan additives/supplements tomorrow!

View attachment 1297338

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Dude, that looks ultra tasty. Just for the newbs I would like to point out the difference between his plants and other organic plants.
If you look closely you will see a few things that are important. First, the advanced cholorosis (yellowing) is not just yellowing, but the green fades to reveal many secondary pigments, and up's plant looks beautiful.

Second is the lack of "greenhouse" burn, or burnt tips of the fan leaves, that many have thought is a goal of growing. He obviously did not overfeed, and his plants will smoke great because of that.

Third: is the part we can't see, the taste and affect, which we will wait for upthea's report