Unconventional Organics

GrowerGoneWild said:

Yeah, reference please or evidence on ferments being nitrifying bacteria friendly. It would seem protien or carbohydrates varying from simple glucose to polyscacchrides seems to enhance microbe growth. And with a fast growing annual I only want certian cultures in my mix.

No comment on earth juice, MSDS lists "sea kelp, sugarcane molasses, oatbran, yeast" as primary ingredients.

I could see yeast being a potential food source itself for nitrifying bacteria as a food source like "bakers yeast" however it seems to be an odd way of approching it. Dead yeast is a food source for live yeast, so I assume microbes could use it.

I just thought it seems odd to use lacto or yeast to bump up microbe activity because they seem to supress microbe activity as in the case of fermented alcohol or pickling process .. I could see yeast also "limiting" excess simple carbohydrates but not to big a fan of the idea of it competing with mineralizing bacteria especially with exudates in the rhizosphere.

If anything I'm referencing Jeff Lowenfells and Dr Inghams work on microbes.. the majority of the AG products I've seen seem to focus more on aerobic bacteria that mineralize vs anerobes...

If it works for you.. cool.. I'm just trying to think out loud how this ferment style composting can be used.

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well im no scientist but my knowlege of yeast, like brewers yeast you can uy commercialy is marketed as a protien, and protien is consumed for its Nitrogen. Any bacteria would love to chomp on some yeast. To my knowledge bacteria dont have 1 prefered food source. You reference nitrifying bacteria but that is only a couple of them and they are nitrogen fixating, meaning they take the nitrogen from the air or atmosphere and render it to the plant, who couldnt accomplish this on it own.

As far as lactio bacillus is concerned im not sure where the hang up is. They dominate in their perfered pH range of 3-4. Thats a far cry from a plants prefered or at least any plant i have ever grown. I think research is required by parties who wish to dive into this, as im sure the actual web sites can say it better than i can. But to give you and idea Ill say i have 1 5gal bucket of pure water. It reads 5.4pH. Thats not ideal for cannabis or most plants in soil. Hydro s another story. The amount of lactic bacteria or even a DIY fermented fertilizer is very minimal. 1 tsp/gallon. Thats going to drop your pH even more now since lactic bacteria and yeast and purple sulfer bacteria are a HIGH ACIDITY favoring. But why on earth would you ever hand water a plant with a pH lower than 6.5? , so you must re adjust the pH. So add the pH up and stabalize it.
Once added to a new enviroment where aerobes are proliferating the FLACULATIVE ANEROBES can still be of benifit but they dont have a front row serat to the show like the aerobic microbes. Lactic bacteria are exellent composters FACT. http://www.infrc.or.jp/english/KNF_Data_Base_Web/PDF KNF Conf Data/C1-5-018.pdf

Next is the phototropic bacteria FACT. http://www.biologyexams4u.com/2013/03/difference-between-plant-photosynthesis.html

Now yeast http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02139640#
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v132/n3332/abs/132408b0.html

Labs Dexter said:

Soo I just come into this and I'm sorry for being a noob,
How does do the yeast and what's about aero thing. How do you do it?!! Pm please incase I piss people off here with my dumb questions. I just flushed my used soil with cal mang and re used it. What fo you guys add to enrich it. I'm in England so please be as clear as you can if possible please, it sounds interesting I read somewhere about someones grany used gone off milk to inrich her soil for next season<- don't know if that's even a word lol.. It's just would like yo hace knowledge in this type of vocabulary please any help would be appreciated..
Thanks in advance

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Iv got lots of recipes on this thread. Yeast is actually just one of many ingredients in a probiotic solution. Em-1 from Teraganix is a great place to start once you have the knowledge of what to do with your new "livestock". That's a microbe as livestock joke. I'm sorry dry humored. Ask as many questions as.you can.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/from-scratch-only-no-premixed-bottles-of-stuff.873531/page-5#post-11934168

Yeast has a symbiotic relationship to lactobaccilus and the phototrophs. For culturing purposes. I don't think they eat the yeast per say but thrive in an environment with one another.

iHearAll said:

Yeast has a symbiotic relationship to lactobaccilus and the photographs. For culturing purposes. I don't think they eat the yeast per say but thrive in an environment with one another.

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correct. I can always tell when a ferment is done because of the yeast on the surface, smells sweet too.

Sometimes I get a little too focused on one form of microlife.

The point generally is to create nutrition for our fast growing annual, with balanced microlife.

Some of the concepts Im getting from this conversation are:

Lactobacillus isn't a mineralizing bacteria but one that gives off specific compounds like lactic acid. So these ferments would be acidic, and would supress mineralizing bacteria, unless used in a very dilute form. Dilution ratio of EM range was anywhere from 1:500-2000. (TeraGanix application also goes from 1:7000 to 1:10000) And yes I understand that lacto can change from anerobic to aerobic.

Now looking at table 1 EM4 optimum application rates seem to vary according to how much crabgrass was incorporated into the soil, or woodchips. Now what bothers me about that particular experiment is the use of synthetic feed.

So some of these ferments could be used to correct a high ph given their low PH. The eventual byproduct of bacteria working soil and creating NH4 would be alkaline. Or help correct a hot soil, or one with high PH by modifying dilution ratio.

We keep talking about breaking down material, I would have thought worms in the soil or vermi compost would be a better alternative to fermenting.. I"m sure lacto plays a role in decomp, but it would seem to me that worms would be doing a better job if that. I totally could see starting a pile with worms and an inoculant of EM4 or a homebrew to get things started.

I'll have to revisit this thread in a few days.. Im hoping to attend a vermicomposting workshop, and I'll ask an expert on the significance of ferments like lacto/yeast in the garden, how it can be used with fast growing annuals.

GrowerGoneWild said:

Sometimes I get a little too focused on one form of microlife.

The point generally is to create nutrition for our fast growing annual, with balanced microlife.

Some of the concepts Im getting from this conversation are:

Lactobacillus isn't a mineralizing bacteria but one that gives off specific compounds like lactic acid. So these ferments would be acidic, and would supress mineralizing bacteria, unless used in a very dilute form. Dilution ratio of EM range was anywhere from 1:500-2000. (TeraGanix application also goes from 1:7000 to 1:10000) And yes I understand that lacto can change from anerobic to aerobic.

Now looking at table 1 EM4 optimum application rates seem to vary according to how much crabgrass was incorporated into the soil, or woodchips. Now what bothers me about that particular experiment is the use of synthetic feed.

So some of these ferments could be used to correct a high ph given their low PH. The eventual byproduct of bacteria working soil and creating NH4 would be alkaline. Or help correct a hot soil, or one with high PH by modifying dilution ratio.

We keep talking about breaking down material, I would have thought worms in the soil or vermi compost would be a better alternative to fermenting.. I"m sure lacto plays a role in decomp, but it would seem to me that worms would be doing a better job if that. I totally could see starting a pile with worms and an inoculant of EM4 or a homebrew to get things started.

I'll have to revisit this thread in a few days.. Im hoping to attend a vermicomposting workshop, and I'll ask an expert on the significance of ferments like lacto/yeast in the garden, how it can be used with fast growing annuals.

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The worms are indeed in uses. They're in the ground. The first step is to ferment, the second isnto bury for two weeks if we're talking about fermenting compost still. Once the compost is in the ground the fun happens. After two weeks of the earth decomposing the fermented stuff the compost will be black and smell like kimchi. Probably some black soldier.fly larvae and worms will be present. There's no need to turn the soil when you plant if your plant is either a tree or a quart size plant.
Here's just a scratch of the surface before I planted. The areas pretty sand. I used the local soil to cover up 15 gallons of FKG. There's obviously alot more of the nice black soil under the sand.

Here it is this morning.
Bunch of autos budding

The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out.

I learned this off of a gardening show. These are willow branches. They are a natural root hormone. It works. I use that method in my water cloner. ( when they are available)

Oregon Gardener said:

I learned this off of a gardening show. These are willow branches. They are a natural root hormone. It works. I use that method in my water cloner. ( when they are available)

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and if you have no willow to hand you can always mash up some aspirin as that`s the main thing in "willow water" that causes roots to grow I imagine there are some B-vits and plant sugars too

I love the aspirin thing. I think the TV gardener mentioned that as well. However, I wonder if compounded aspirin would f- up the organic thing?

Oregon Gardener said:

I learned this off of a gardening show. These are willow branches. They are a natural root hormone. It works. I use that method in my water cloner. ( when they are available)

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We need more people like you with old school methods that do the job.
Well done and thanks for that information

Or raw honey in soil tho for a grow ...
I use that as a booster all through flowering but, you can use for cloning and to heal wounds.
It's more natural and mj plants that I have grown so far works a treat.
Calcium is soil add crushed egg shells lol.

Labs Dexter said:

We need more people like you with old school methods that do the job.
Well done and thanks for that information

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It is a privilege to be of service.

These green worms terrorized us a few years ago. I tested every thing I had on them. Nothing that would work is anything I would want on my property.They mocked me. The microwave worked; so I wound up hiring a guy to pick them off by hand because he had a knack for finding them. However, We use sunflowers for privacy and one day I took this picture. I stopped smashing wasp's nests. I have become "one" with the wasp.

Is that the white moth's caterpillar?

iHearAll said:

Is that the white moth's caterpillar?

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I'm not sure. We never let one mature. I call them web worms. I live in the southern region of Oregon. They spin almost spider web like infestations in the trees. The only show up every couple of years and they are a pain in the buttock! I will do some research ( ask my son) and get back with you.

Oregon Gardener said:

I'm not sure. We never let one mature. I call them web worms. I live in the southern region of Oregon. They spin almost spider web like infestations in the trees. The only show up every couple of years and they are a pain in the buttock! I will do some research ( ask my son) and get back with you.

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Yep thats the bitch there. Glad to hear wasps eat them. They tend to each my cabbages and kales.

Oregon Gardener said:

I learned this off of a gardening show. These are willow branches. They are a natural root hormone. It works. I use that method in my water cloner. ( when they are available)

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Aloe works too

I always ash joints and bowls of weed and cigarettes in my soil, and joke that I'll never run out, lol. Also I usually have alcohol brewing in my grow room to add airborne co2. While urinating on one's plants would be a great organic way to add nutrients to the soil, it seems like it would make the PH levels a tad on the acidic side, depending on blood sugar levels etc.

My main soil fertilizer is warthog and giraffe shit. Mixed in with red soil. I use Neem oil for getting rid of bugs in the soil and have used apple cider vinegar diluted when dealing with a little mold at seedling stage, due to too much watering.