Trimming fan leaves

The one thing that nobody ever throws into this fight is environment. The idea behind indoor growing is complete control. If you have good, consistent environment and nutes the plants have everything they need and don't have to work as hard for what they want. This allows for defoliating without seriously stressing the plant. It is a touchy subject but I know from testing it works in my rooms.

Well said! Now I just need to get control........as another fly goes up my nose

Have you tried only full branches instead of leaves?? Like every other branch?

I've also tried this... This method actually worked a little better. IMO. The object being to eliminate any over lap from other branches, it gives each branch you leave, more space, more light, and more air.

Another member mention that they did this, I think it was Stickybuds?

I'm guessing it has the same effect as lollipoping, as you are removing branches the plant puts its energy into growing the remaining branches?

Does this actually increase the net yield, or are you just getting less but bigger buds which would probably work out the same overall?

I'm amazed that this thread hasn't turned into a "chase him from the village with torches" thread. Yes RIU your evolving lol. It would be real cool to have a defoliation sub-forum to intelligently discuss the outcomes of different techniques, being good or bad, to separate the truth from the "I heard from a friend" stuff! I for one am going to continue with trying different things now that I know the plants aren't going to keel over lol.

waterdawg said:

I'm amazed that this thread hasn't turned into a "chase him from the village with torches" thread. Yes RIU your evolving lol. It would be real cool to have a defoliation sub-forum to intelligently discuss the outcomes of different techniques, being good or bad, to separate the truth from the "I heard from a friend" stuff! I for one am going to continue with trying different things now that I know the plants aren't going to keel over lol.

Click to expand...

It won't be long before some Agents turn up to ruin this thread, it's been made quite clear that we will not be allowed to discuss that technique on this forum and that people are going to actively put a stop a it.

It's a shame like you say, as it would be nice to have a place to learn and share information with others.

Neo12345, Who has said we are not allowed to discuss this topic in the hydroponics forums ? Also if you can please post a link of this rule , ive been a moderator of the hydroponic forums for roughly 2 yrs & this is the 1st ive heard of it .

In the past some threads might of been deleted , closed & locked but only due to members acting childish & hijacking a thread to slander other members , the topic itself is allowed along with anything else that can apply to hydroponics .

Agents!!!! Ahhhh!!!!

In my experience I had a couple plants I tried this on at different stages,during veg it worked great, allows for manipulation of the plant, however in flwr it seemed to stunt the growth everytime, buds would still produce, just not very big.
Being as I was in soil at the time and have recently been switching to hydro, I'm looking forward to seeing if it works any better. maybe the control of nutes would allow the plant less shock?

panhead said:

Neo12345, Who has said we are not allowed to discuss this topic in the hydroponics forums ? Also if you can please post a link of this rule , ive been a moderator of the hydroponic forums for roughly 2 yrs & this is the 1st ive heard of it .

In the past some threads might of been deleted , closed & locked but only due to members acting childish & hijacking a thread to slander other members , the topic itself is allowed along with anything else that can apply to hydroponics .

Click to expand...

It wasn't a dig at any of the mods on this forum Panhead, the mods have always been very fair and helpful in my opinion.

There isn't a written rule but these guys know how to destroy a thread. It's been made very clear to me that people will stop any kind of discussion on this subject by doing exactly what you said in your second paragraph, people will trash the thread knowing that it will be deleted or make it unreadable with page after page of trolling.

Look at this AWESOME free text I found online, anyone who is serious about growing should read it, maybe it will stop all this 2nd grade regurgitated information about what leaves do, yes we all leaned about photosynthesis.

Bottom llne is if your not removing SOME fan leaves strategically, and your growing indoors, your not maximizing your space or yield.

Here is the text, it's free

http://plantsinaction.science.uq.edu.au/edition1/?q=content/home-page

It's called ADAPTATION IN NATURE AND PERFORMANCE IN CULTIVATION

I read the entire thing. Turns out leaves are REALLY important...some are more important then others. Some, like the really big large fan leaves actually compete for energy with your buds. Hey I'm not a scientist, but the people who wrote this book all are.

Those really big fan leaves everyone says are big storage units that directly influence the size of budz...well they aren't, they are competitors.

I know from my personal experiences on EVERY strain I ever grew, that removing these big fan leaves(when you need to for room/air movement/light penetration to lower branches) during veg(the ones at the base of a branch where it meets the stem) caused a growth spurt in the branch it was cut off of.

Here's proof!

"
Distribution patterns of 14C-labelled products relate to developmental morphology of fruiting shoots. Typically source leaves are nearby on the same lateral branch, both above and below the fruit. In apple, fruiting spurs may develop primary leaves (emerging soon after budburst), then spur leaves (in a rosette at the base of the flower), then bourse leaves (growing on spur bourse shoots). Each in turn provides assimilate for the next phase of leaf growth (primary → spur → bourse); then as leaf expansion ceases, all provide assimilate to the developing fruit (Tustin et al. 1992). Leaves on adjacent extension shoots can provide some photosynthate to fruit, but if indeterminate growth continues furthermost leaves become progressively less important as suppliers, and more significant as competitors. If the normal suppliers are removed, carbohydrate can come from longer distances, sometimes from leaves more than a metre away (Bollard 1970).

Relative strength of source and sink is a major factor for distribution patterns, but transport options are dictated by vascular connections. During plant growth, development occurs in an orderly and patterned manner, creating separate files of leaves. This pattern (phyllotaxis) is accompanied by a matching pattern of vascular connections. Photosynthate tends to move along a pathway of least resistance, following these direct vascular connections where they exist, hence distribution patterns generally follow phyllotaxis."

So there you have it, leaving all your fan leaves on while your growing indoors is taking energy away from your buds. The plant needs energy to support those big ass fan leaves.

In fact those big fan leaves are only suppliers when they are about 50-70% their final size, once they reach any bigger they are no longer the plants main source for energy, quite the opposite. They were made to produce energy for the new branch, once the branch is developed, it actually takes energy away from the bud at the top of it-it competes for food and the food reaches the that fan leaf first.

Read the damn book, think critically, and stop listening to people on cannabis forums-we're a bunch of sheep who listen to hobbists over scientists. Do your own research, the information is out there and it has been out there for a while.

I tried to leave all my leaves on my plant before, I got leafy larf bud towards the bottom of my plant and big beautiful fan leaves all over the place.

I am NOT talking about defoliation! I am talking about selectively pruning and manicuring your plant-those people who grow the darkest red roses know what their doing, and they know which leaves to remove to accomplish this.

In nature, the leaves serve a FAR greater purpose then turning light into energy. They are big resin coated pollin catchers. Plants don't want to grow big buds, they want to become fertilized as soon as possible and put their energy into making seeds.
I want nice fat buds in a nice even canopy, I don't see how this is possible without removing some of these leaves.

It seams the people who are against removing leaves grow huge trees-no wonder they are happy with their yeild!

Good read!!! Thanks

Squidbilly said:

It seams the people who are against removing leaves grow huge trees-no wonder they are happy with their yeild!

Click to expand...

thanks---good read. What do we as a community consider "huge trees"? My rule of thumb is of example: a 2' plant beginning of flowering will be 4' at harvest,etc-----thus more space relative to the light source.

Largest I've ever started flowering was 5' tall but very difficult to train into my trellis (veged for 9 weeks).

Any opinions on what is a "huge tree"?

A~~~

Would these plants be "huge trees"?

Interesting video, plants respond to pain.

http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/sc/web/show/136361/amazing-plants?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=posts&utm_content=facebook_1398091034

JustADudeMan said:

In my experience I had a couple plants I tried this on at different stages,during veg it worked great, allows for manipulation of the plant, however in flwr it seemed to stunt the growth everytime, buds would still produce, just not very big.
Being as I was in soil at the time and have recently been switching to hydro, I'm looking forward to seeing if it works any better. maybe the control of nutes would allow the plant less shock?

Click to expand...

You could just defoliate in veg, there are no rules as to when you can and can't pull your leaves off? It might be a case of your particular strain not liking it in flower? Do you give them enough time to recover before putting into flower, as I have found this effects yield if done too early?

Maybe huge tree isn't the right word. I guess what I meant was 'big' growing styles, like a stadium vert bulb grow, or using 15gal+ smart pots indoors with room for the plants to naturally 'do their thing'

In my 4x4 tents I find that a combination of training and selective leaf removal maximizes space, increases the amount of lower branches that reach the canopy, and increases my yield. If I couldn't remove a few fans I would have a hell of time getting as many tops/budsites as I do. But that is my style of grow. It's what works for me and what has given me the best results.

I just want to clear up so of the psudo-science that gets tossed around on these forums. When leaves reach 60-90% of their final size the plant requires energy to keep them alive, and nutrients travel through the plant via the path of least resistance. Those big fan leaves are meant to provide energy when a new branch is created. Once it is created, it's job is done. Since nutes take the path of least resistance, the big leaves that form at the base of the branch at the stem become competitors rather then suppliers, and the nutes are taken up by the big leaf first.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about how a plant produces energy. Photosynthesis does give the plant energy, however it does so MORE in newer growth, and it does so by absorbing light through any green surface, not just leaves. The biggest fan leaves on plants require energy to stay alive. The plant keeps them alive as a BACKUP energy reserve, not an active one.

Cannabis DOES NOT want to produce big fat buds-it wants to be pollinated as soon as possible and put it's energy into making seeds. I think a lot of people forget that-they way we grow it is unnatural. In nature the plant doesn't want to waste energy producing huge flowers!

We are trying to manipulate the plant into doing that because it doesn't want to do it on it's own. This is why self pollinating and hermies are such an issue indoors-

You know what IS stressful to a cannabis plant? Keeping it isolated from male plants and forcing it to grow big ass flowers while pumping it full of synthetic fertilizers.

At least removing leaves is a 'natural' thing- I personally believe it makes for a stronger, healthier plant. Each time you remove a leaf the plant builds a stronger immune system. Just like in the wild, the plants that are able to survive are the ones who's genes get passed on to the next generation. Millions of years of evolution has enabled these plants to respond WELL to damage, like bending stems or removing fan leaves.

SO, if someone is against removing leaves then they must be against bending or any form of training, which are ALL more stressfull then selective leaf removal.

I found this article about defoliation increasing yield in Grape production:

http://www.sawislibrary.co.za/dbtextimages/Hunter.pdf

"The 33% defoliation treatment prior to pea size and 66%
defoliation prior to veraison adversely affected the fresh mass
per berry and yield at harvest, whereas 33% defoliation from
veraison increased the fresh berry mass compared to that of
non-defoliated vines."

There are also many articles about using defoliation in the cotton industry to increase yield.

I was just reading almost the same thing!

Now, I'm not saying you HAVE to remove leaves, just that it's not harmful nor does it prohibit bud growth on the branch it was removed from-it doesn't work like that.

The idea that total leaf area is directly related to yeild is non-sense. What increases yeild is manipulation and human interaction.

I have access to almost every single scientific/horticultral/agriculture academic journal since the 1960's via my schools liabrary database. Ebsco Host I believe. I get my info from peer reviewed scientific studies, not rollitup.org, lol.

The text I posted was equally as reliable-and everyone can have access to it, so that is why I posted that particular text.

The info is there. Again, I'm not a proponet of defoliation or any other method for that matter. I still think everyone's situation is different I just can't understand why some people are so against removing a single leaf! Their explanation is always the same, "Photosynthesis blah blah blah" It demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of plant biology, which is funny because these are the same people who will tell you that YOU don't understand plant biology.

This is an issue that needs to be cleared up for the good of the growing community!