The aeroponic vegetator, increase your yield/year now!

Love the clean setup @StinkBud

Alaric said:

After my experience with several nute delivery methods------my conclusion is:

Doesn't make much difference-----if any at all. I (think) Sativied has come to the same conclusion.

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Indeed, with true aero one could reduce the nutrient and water usage a little further theoretically (I already use less than 500ppm of which 200 is tap), but I just flood/recirculate 24/7, keeps the root zone constant. I actually missed that this winter on soil, the aqua pump in the rez prevents the water from cooling down too far. Another reason for me is that I start out vegging under T8 in dwc boxes, so they are used to being soaked. I never have issues with the drains clogging (well, first run I vegged way too long) because the hole is not at the bottom but in the end cap, offset to create a dam.

GH talks about it in one of their instruction manuals for an aeroflo too, the only reason to put the pump on a timer is to reduce electricity cost. But aeroflo is not true aero anyway, it's more NFT with sprayers to keep the flow aerated because it's deeper than a tradition nft 'film'. I noticed I get more throughput without sprayers and will probably run without them, get a stronger pump and maximize the flow.

Basically, I think it's best to choose between aero and continuous recirculating (I like the term DFT, deep flow instead of nutrient film) rather than trying to mix them up.

I looked for those white fence poles here many times, I seriously think someone could make a living here importing and selling those. I've seen a company that offers them as part of complete fences, very expensive, while I bet they would be really popular here.


I just measured my tubes, and turns out I rounded the diameter too roughly, it's 110mm, which isn't 5" but less than 4.5". Any smaller and I'd have trouble fitting a net cup in there... plenty of ideas so far, too many really, nothing worth drawing out yet.

Sativied said:

GH talks about it in one of their instruction manuals for an aeroflo too, the only reason to put the pump on a timer is to reduce electricity cost. But aeroflo is not true aero anyway, it's more NFT with sprayers to keep the flow aerated because it's deeper than a tradition nft 'film'. I noticed I get more throughput without sprayers and will probably run without them, get a stronger pump and maximize the flow.

Basically, I think it's best to choose between aero and continuous recirculating (I like the term DFT, deep flow instead of nutrient film) rather than trying to mix them up.

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Unless the GH aero flow has changed----they don't use sprayers-----just little "lazer drilled" holes in plastic spray line. I ordered one just to check it out------cheap toy----first impression.

I prefer in-line pumps----especially running continuous circulation, I like iwaki pumps from Aquatic Eco Systems-----they come with a cooling fan built in (pic).

A~~~

Alaric said:

Unless the GH aero flow has changed----they don't use sprayers-----just little "lazer drilled" holes in plastic spray line. I ordered one just to check it out------cheap toy----first impression.

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Hey... didn't know that. I remember seeing one with those ez clone sprayers but that may just have been a modification.

Nice pump. I got one that can be used in the rez as well as dry, so I could run it outside the rez in the summers, but, it's still a (relatively) cheap aqua pump and doesn't have the same power inline as in rez. Going to get a better one though.

I got the bottom feet of my grow closet covered with pond liner, saved my ass many times.

Sativied said:

I got the bottom feet of my grow closet covered with pond liner, saved my ass many times.

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That's why I like basements and garages------much experience with leaks.

That little iwaki pump worked very nicely for me------constant circulation.

For high pressure aero I like these 3/4 hp.

A~~~

Another way to use round tubes-----archives from long ago.

Constant circulation----with a 50 gallon rez in another room with a nute level controller.

The full amount of nutes were circulated through the tubes.

A~~~

That's similar to what I used so far.

I'm going to build a smaller setup first (2 or 2.4" diameter tubes, 2' long), to replace the dwc boxes I use in one of my veg cabinets (2x3 plants per box). For seedlings and testing purposes.

I do like the idea of slicing open those tubes instead of individual plant sites. Since it'll be small I may be able to use something like neoprene, rectangular pieces to sandwich a plant. Going to pump the water through a manifold directly through 4 tubes (manifold directly attached to the end cap basically).

As for separating the plants in a larger setup:

What if that disc would be a mesh screen, more like so:


And possibly could rotate in side the tube, open like a door sort of, just rotate 90degrees to open/close....

In an open tube like yours (@Alaric) I could perhaps simply place/remove them, add a clip or something to keep them in place. It wouldn't even have to be perfect. The problem isn't really removing roots from a plant (to an extend), but removing a plant and leaving roots behind.

Sativied said:

In an open tube like yours (@Alaric) I could perhaps simply place/remove them, add a clip or something to keep them in place. It wouldn't even have to be perfect. The problem isn't really removing roots from a plant (to an extend), but removing a plant and leaving roots behind.

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If I understand correctly?----your objective is plant portability without fighting root tangles.

Soil (sorry, couldn't resist).

I think you know what a fan of tubes,"gullies", and panels I am------however; for only a 2' long space with 2 or 3 plants-----I'd just stick with your

DWC totes or an aero rig similar to this one (if enough space).

Warning about the neoprene discs (if u don't already know). Some are very soft and thiner than the ones used on the Power Cloner.

I've found that attention to root de-tangle once every week or two (depending on plant size) eliminates problem.

A picture dump of my aero cloner/pre-veg contraption. Botonicare 2'x2' tub with lid and rh dome. Fits nicely under a 2'x2' T5.

I had to order the lid with no holes-----drilled a 49 hole grid pattern (1.3/4" holes)----snug fit for 2" neoprene discs.

That blue line is great for transitioning from outside to inside-----comes in different sizes and lengths (lawn irrigation section at lowes).

Have fun and stay safe,

A~~~

Alaric said:

If I understand correctly?----your objective is plant portability without fighting root tangles.

Soil (sorry, couldn't resist).

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Yes, that's the objective. It's essentially for breeding, to allow me to remove males as well as inferior females. It's more for breeding and growing. I want to start with a good amount of plants to select, yet end up with a small enough amount to still do a decent grow and keep the jars filled.

Soil is what I'm doing now. Also done coco and hempy. Hate it. I used to grow soil in huge pots, run 5 plants, so long veg and large pot, easy to water and 'feed'. With 25-36 x 1-2 gallon pots however it's such a pita to 'manage' all those pots individually. Hempy and coco ime doesn't match up to tubes, plus I really like not having to throw away medium, so yeah mediumless is a requirement.

Alaric said:

I think you know what a fan of tubes,"gullies", and panels I am--

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Yeah me too, which is really a determining factor. I want the strain I'm working on to be bred on the system I will grow it myself, which will be tubes. I did a run on soil for plant portability but also because I wanted to do a run with my organic nutes I still had. Figured I'd follow that up with a run on Canna Terra for fun cause I like the plant portability. Which sucks.... it's weak and doesn't contain Ca... Regardless, it's time I move back to my tubes, or similar.

Alaric said:

however; for only a 2' long space with 2 or 3 plants-----I'd just stick with your

Click to expand...

Sure, I agree. It's however not for 2 or 3 plants, but for 18-36, and on 4x4'

Here's my situation for clarity:

- (2x) Veg cabinet of 20" x 3' x 20"

- Flower closet of 4x4x8'

So I don't have the height for aero in my veg boxes. The plant portability objective is for the flower closet setup. The DWC boxes I use in veg work fine but don't have enough plant sites, so need to create something new anyway. Figured I can create a mini version for one of the veg boxes before I build something for the flower closet again. Will order the pvc for it today, about $35 of "Lego"

Alaric said:

Warning about the neoprene discs (if u don't already know). Some are very soft and thiner than the ones used on the Power Cloner.

Click to expand...

Definitely want to avoid using clay pebbles / hydroton this time so I hope I can order those too by now, same deal as with the sprayers. Although I do have an alternative, some long neoprene-like 6' x 2.5" cylinder used by kids to float in water I can cut in slices. Oh actually, I can slice pieces over the length, to fill that gap in the gutter, to sandwhich plants.

And that's a nice setup man, I do appreciate seeing some professional looking setup under my plants. A local grower uses a very similar DIY setup for pheno hunting. It's similar to what I have in mind as a more expensive option - would still need to create a prototype first - and that's having an HDPE system created. I agree that if I wasn't set on soaking the roots 24/7 I should use such an aero setup. The failed swc test was sparked by that too. If anything that just took way too much water. The HDPE version would be like gutters in an enclosed box in which the plants are in gutters but it's the box itself that's flooded.

I think those mesh screens could work though. It only has to work for the first 5 week or so (of which the first 2-3 are in the veg cabinet). I could eventually put the males I end up using (flowering longer that is) in the same tube (end up using 4 tubes, 3 plants each, of which 1 tube has males only).

And thanks for the replies, great to go over possibilities with a tube fan who tried more than a couple of different setup.

High S?

Sorry for my dumbness------what's HDPE?

For me, dreaming up new designs and overcoming problems is over half the fun. I'd much rather see pics of room designs than bud candy.

The danger is when you get everything "done"-----no more improvements-----then operation becomes a little boring.

I once had the same thought about those pool noodles------guess some stoned minds think alike.

this pic shows a method I used long ago-----plastic cups----bottoms cut out-----sculpted floral foam around the plant stem. (don't advise using)

Hated dealing with all those parts------wanna guess what came next?

A~~~

Alaric said:

High S?

Click to expand...

Always

Alaric said:

Sorry for my dumbness------what's HDPE?

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My bad, I assumed it's widely known but the whole reason I ran into it is because I noticed a few HDPE welders and 3D pond producers popping up in my area. Seems to be a hot thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_polyethylene

Example, multi-chamber filter for Koi pond:



Also used for leak trays, for oil/acid leaking parts for example. For 3d printer filament too. And, specifically for drinking water and agriculture irrigation tubes and ponds. Great for real aero chambers too.

In addition to welding plates I can order custom extruded parts. Simplest example being a box. What I have in mind would be pricey, but not a whole lot more than buying a complete hydro set.

"pool noodle" yes, that's the name I was looking for. Got one at the equivalent of a dollar store.

Alaric said:

Hated dealing with all those parts------wanna guess what came next?

Click to expand...

Your current tunnel Instead of moving/folding roots manually (which wouldn't help in my case because of the continues flow) I would place/move a mesh screen a few times.

Alaric said:

View attachment 3385151

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Didn't noticed the image the first time. I did something similar with the SWC (that floating raft hydro setup I threw together), using 1 liter bottles to force the roots to grow down instead of flow side ways. That helped to delay the entangling but not enough.

A previous poster in this thread said the OP uses a solo cup "Prolly cut the bottom out and just pressed up against the tray." But then obviously the flow would go around the cup. I don't think he uses a fabric pot as someone else suggested either, but in any case I don't think they'd allow enough water to flow through opposed to using mesh screens.

Sativied said:

Didn't noticed the image the first time. I did something similar with the SWC (that floating raft hydro setup I threw together), using 1 liter bottles to force the roots to grow down instead of flow side ways. That helped to delay the entangling but not enough.

A previous poster in this thread said the OP uses a solo cup "Prolly cut the bottom out and just pressed up against the tray." But then obviously the flow would go around the cup. I don't think he uses a fabric pot as someone else suggested either, but in any case I don't think they'd allow enough water to flow through opposed to using mesh screens.

Click to expand...

I assume you're thinking about one of those HDPE boxes with a grid pattern of divided compartments-----with a screen between each
compartment for nute circulation?

I suspect the roots will tangle in the screen.

You've got me thinking methods of doing this-----all the way through the process.

A~~~

Alaric said:

I assume you're thinking about one of those HDPE boxes with a grid pattern of divided compartments-----with a screen between each compartment for nute circulation?

Click to expand...

In that swc I cut the bottom and top of 1 liter bottlers, netcups in it, and pushed those bottle down in the swc but not against the floor. This forced the roots to grow downwards before they could escape the bottle and grow side ways and entangle with neighbors. The problem was that with 36 x 1 liter bottles there was not enough flow and aeration possible, so the water in the bottles would stagnate. So I trimmed the bottom half of the bottles, but that obviously gave up the main advantage of keeping the roots vertical at first. It probably would have worked if each site had it's own supply line, but that was one of things I wanted to avoid.


If those bottles would have been mesh cylinders instead I would have had the same problem. Those 36 bottles create a wall that kills the flow/water movement from airstones. And that's where the HDPE option came in. Mostly just as a way to get around the limits of using commonly available PVC pieces. A 3x3x1' 'table' similar to that swc but raised so I can drain it on one end, and pump in the solution on the other end, essentially treating it as a single tube. I could put the pump on a timer and let the compartments drain every X minutes if needed, to ensure it doesn't stagnate. I would again have a single rez to work with, strong return waterfalls, and can easily refresh (opposed to that swc).

Like the image from wiki I mentioned earlier, but larger, and with multiple, manifold, supply lines on one end, multiple drains to, to keep it evenly spread.


But with some magic inside that keeps the roots apart

Alaric said:

I suspect the roots will tangle in the screen.

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The screens were for the tubes but regardless, wouldn't that depend on the mesh? First run I vegged to long and had roots growing back in the rez, which would get chopped up by the pump eventually, so I added a piece of nylon panty hose around the return pipe. Roots eventually grew straight through it. If I would use those screen discs sideways in the tubes some roots may grow into them but I could then remove those without ripping roots from one plant out roots from another. That's one of the things I want to check with the mini setup.

Sativied said:

so I added a piece of nylon panty hose around the return pipe. Roots eventually grew straight through it.

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Got a giggle out of you cutting up you're panty hose. Reminds me of some of the silly things I've tried.

I think (?) your objectives are:

1) Deep water, constant circulation.

2) Multiple plants in the same box/tube/bucket/etc

3) no root tangles.

4) easily, quickly portable

Does PVC float?

I've been thinking about some different methods.

A~~~

Alaric said:

Does PVC float?

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Not unless it functions like a boat, an open ended piece sinks.

Alaric said:

Multiple plants in the same box/tube/bucket/etc

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I considered an RDWC with 36 buckets but those would be 36x 0.5gallon buckets or something to fit in my 4x4' space. I could remove buckets from the chain, but I can't increase the size of the eventually 9 remaining buckets, at least not conveniently, you get the point. When there are for example 6 plants in a tube and I remove 3 the remaining 3 should get the root space of the 3 I removed, rather then having unused compartments/space/buckets. So 2) seems inevitable.

Alaric said:

4) easily, quickly portable

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That may seem a bit much too ask but yes, easily, and quickly portable plants. Not just be able to remove plants easily, but also move them easily. But again, only for a few weeks. Roughly week 3-5 or 6 from seed. I noticed transplanting from DWC/NFT to hempy works very well, so I could do that for the males I flower (for example 3 out of 12).

Alaric said:

1) Deep water, constant circulation.

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Constant circulation but not any deeper than needed. That 3x3x1' box example I mentioned should probably be more like 3x3x0.5'. Essentially I want the rez to be separate like with my tubes, instead of wasting gallons just to fill up a system (like the swc test) to a certain level.

Is it possible to have the rez and pump outside the flower cabinet? (For example a 44 gallon garbage can for the rez)----if yes, I've done that with tubes 2" off the floor using a nute level controller.

A~~~

Alaric said:

High StinkBud?

"I'm sure you guys all know about square PVC fence posts right? You can get 5" X 8' fence post for about $25 at Home DePot. Square is stable. Square gives you more cubic space. It's hip to be square."

Yep----once played around with the post----I liked the "hipness"-----hated the end caps. With the pvc tubes-----very rare to have a leak.

"it flooded the whole fucking grow room and then when me and the wife got home she freaks out because there's water on the downstairs living room floor and my grow was upstairs."

One afternoon I came home to my 3 story townhouse------opened the front door-----saw water gushing down my chandelier. A valve blew out.

"When the roots get so long they are ready to plug up the pump is grab the scissors and RUN into the other room with the points facing my heart. Then I give the roots a root cut. It's like a hair cut but with roots instead."

Agree about small drain holes creating problems----another reason I went with the panels for access. My tube drain ports are 1"-----no problem so far.

The reason I want 6"x18" channels is so the roots can be suspended the full depth of the channel-------making it true aero.

But alas, is true aero more effective than constant circulation or flood&drain, etc.

After my experience with several nute delivery methods------my conclusion is:

Doesn't make much difference-----if any at all. I (think) Sativied has come to the same conclusion.

Do you understand those tube support chains are attached rollers and box rail------so the tubes can be moved apart-----and makes a natural attachment points for the trellis.

You have some happy looking girls----way to go.

Thanks for the award (where do I cash it in)?

A~~~View attachment 3381799

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I have to say I really like your designs Alaric! The rollers on the ceiling is genius!

Whenever I grow with hydro I wish I was growing in soil. Whenever I grow in soil I wish I was growing in hydro. Why is the grass always greener on the other side? Soil is a lot of work at the start and then it's pretty easy after that. There's not much work with hydro but you don't have much buffer for fuck ups. We lost power last month during a big wind storm. I sold my generator with my van and hadn't replaced it. So I was doing everything I could to keep water to the plants. It was fucked! If it was soil or DWC I would have just been a little irritated.

I've been trying to come up with a self contained drain-to-waste type of system. One where you could grow huge plants and everything can be moved just like a soil plant. Here's the concept. Something like a 20 gal res, through the plant with another catch res. It could even be 20 gal. just to be safe. If everything was set up perfect with a time you could just let it go and it would take care of itself. When the res is empty just drain the catch and refill the main.

StinkBud said:

I have to say I really like your designs Alaric! The rollers on the ceiling is genius!

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Thanks Bro.

The other feature that evolved out of the chain suspension------trellis support.

StinkBud said:

Whenever I grow with hydro I wish I was growing in soil. Whenever I grow in soil I wish I was growing in hydro. Why is the grass always greener on the other side?

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No soil for me-----never done it because------ when I decided to leave my 23 year career in R&D to become an outlaw back in the mid 90s.

The research began ----nothing like today for available info------read enough about soil to say NO-NO.