Proposition 19 CA

Sitting around for a few years waiting until a Proposition comes along that will make everyone happy while people continue to go to jail/prison sounds very selfish and self-serving. The time is now to STOP the bleeding. Over the next few years we can fine tune the laws and elect true REPRESENTATIVES of the PEOPLE. But we have to start somewhere and the time is now!

Tarkfu said:

Counter arguments to his actual article and what it actually says about the propositon, you know the purpose of this entire thread. I'm sorry to say, but the world runs via taxation and regulation. Again, every legal enterprise is taxed and regulated. It is naive to imagine a world of legal marijuana that is not taxed and regulated. That would be a wonderful dream, but not very realistic I'm afraid.

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We already pay appropriate taxes with regards to conducting business in the State of California. We can even see our way to paying a reasonable industry tax. What we can't really see, is giving governmental bodies the right to levy taxes and regulations as they see fit without having some say in the matter. No taxation without representation, as they used to say. Prop 19 was drafted by one man who also bought it's way onto the ballot in November.

Tarkfu said:

Also, my point about Marc Emery is that he is a political prisoner, as said by leaders in the DEA.

The day of Emery's arrest, American DEA Administrator Karen Tandy released the following statement:

Today's DEA arrest of Marc Scott Emery, publisher of Cannabis Culture Magazine, and the founder of a marijuana legalization group -- is a significant blow not only to the marijuana trafficking trade in the U.S. and Canada, but also to the marijuana legalization movement.
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His marijuana trade and propagandist marijuana magazine have generated nearly $5 million a year in profits that bolstered his trafficking efforts, but those have gone up in smoke today.
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Emery and his organization had been designated as one of the Attorney General's most wanted international drug trafficking organizational targets -- one of only 46 in the world and the only one from Canada.
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Hundreds of thousands of dollars of Emery's illicit profits are known to have been channeled to marijuana legalization groups active in the United States and Canada. Drug legalization lobbyists now have one less pot of money to rely on.

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And my point is that he's no more important that the thousands of other prisoners serving multi-decade sentences for lesser charges. $5M a year in bean and media sales says which side Mark is on, and it's not with the common man.

man i went to the collective tday and they told me that the collectives across nor-cal have been makeing more people aware of the b/s behind this so called "legalization", said that most of cali familys survive on mmj and most prop215 patients grow with family and other patients. She told me that theres alott more people voting no than what people are expecting, im just glad theyre working together to spread the word........and another thing if passed theyre will be a huge tax on your property for being allowed to grow it, on top of your normal property taxes. Why pass something thats gonna give patients less grow area and have to pay more taxes.

drherbalist said:

Sitting around for a few years waiting until a Proposition comes along that will make everyone happy while people continue to go to jail/prison sounds very selfish and self-serving. The time is now to STOP the bleeding. Over the next few years we can fine tune the laws and elect true REPRESENTATIVES of the PEOPLE. But we have to start somewhere and the time is now!

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YAY! More fear-mongering. I was afraid we'd have to go a whole page without any real good fear-mongering. No one goes to jail for simple possession or cultivation for personal consumption. Voting bad legislation in with the intent of fixing it later is never a good idea unless you happen to be one that profits from such manipulation. We activists and providers and others in the existing underground industry you are so casually dismissing have already made progress towards legalization. We growers are the ones who go to jail, along with anyone who is labeled a "dealer", not the recreational smokers. We're also the ones fighting in court for rights, setting precedents for legalization and advocating for government agencies to come straight and make effective legislation. If anything needs to happen now, it's that people need to see Prop 19 for what it really is... new regulatory processes which will only serve to increase arrests and a tax regimen to finance it.

TokinPodPilot said:

Which only belies your ignorance regarding current California law. No one goes to jail for simple possession or personal cultivation in California. Possession of amounts in excess of one ounce and/or large cultivation endeavors are also resolvable via diversion if you can prove personal consumption. So that would make you the liar, at the moment.

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Here's the California Health & Safety Code as it currently stands:
11358. Every person who plants, cultivates, harvests, dries, or
processes any marijuana or any part thereof, except as otherwise
provided by law, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state
prison.

Where is my ignorance there? Perhaps when I stated simple possession, but otherwise I think that the above states that if you're growing (NON MMJ Patient/Caregiver) and you are busted, you shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison. That is the law, and it is the law that dictates you going to prison in this case or being free if you were legally allowed to cultivate.

drherbalist said:

Here's the California Health & Safety Code as it currently stands:
11358. Every person who plants, cultivates, harvests, dries, or
processes any marijuana or any part thereof, except as otherwise
provided by law, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state
prison.

Where is my ignorance there? Perhaps when I stated simple possession, but otherwise I think that the above states that if you're growing (NON MMJ Patient/Caregiver) and you are busted, you shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison. That is the law, and it is the law that dictates you going to prison in this case or being free if you were legally allowed to cultivate.

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http://www.canorml.org/laws/pc1000.html

§1000. Applicability of chapter
(a) This chapter shall apply whenever a case is before any court upon an accusatory pleading for a violation of Section 11350: 11357, 11364, 11365, 11377 or 11550 of the Health and Safety Code. or Section 11358 of the Health and Safety Code if the marijuana planted cultivated, harvested, dried, or processed is for personal use, or Section 11368 of the Health and Safety Code if the narcotic drug was secured by a fictitious prescription and is for the personal use of the defendant and was not sold or furnished to another, or subdivision (d) of Section 653f if the solicitation was for acts directed to personal use only, or Section 381 or subdivision (13 of Section 647 of the Penal Code, if for being under the influence of a Controlled substance, or Section 4230 of the Business and Professions Code, and it appears to the prosecuting attorney that except as provided in subdivision (b) of Section 11357 of the Health and Safety Code, all of the following apply to the defendant:
(1) The defendant has no conviction for any offense involving controlled substances prior to the alleged commission of the charged offense.
(2) The offense charged did not involve a crime of violence or threatened violence.
(3) There is no evidence of a violation relating to narcotics or restricted dangerous drugs other than a violation of the sections listed in this subdivision.
(4) The defendant's record does not indicate that probation or parole has ever been revoked without thereafter being completed.
(5) The defendant's record does not indicate that he or she has successfully completed or been terminated from diversion or deferred entry of judgment pursuant to this chapter within five years prior to the alleged commission of the charged offense
(6) The defendant has no prior felony conviction within five years prior to the alleged commission of the charged offense.

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So long as you can prove that you are growing strictly for personal consumption with no "intent to sell", then you are eligible for diversion which results in having to endure a lame "rehab" program, but no jail time and charges are dismissed upon completion of the program. Thanks to your friendly neighborhood activists who lobbied for changes to the Penal Code and worked hard to bring Prop 36 to fruition.

TokinPodPilot said:

http://www.canorml.org/laws/pc1000.html

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So long as you can prove that you are growing strictly for personal consumption with no "intent to sell", then you are eligible for diversion which results in having to endure a lame "rehab" program, but no jail time and charges are dismissed upon completion of the program. Thanks to your friendly neighborhood activists who lobbied for changes to the Penal Code and worked hard to bring Prop 36 to fruition.

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Why should our tax dollars go to such waste processing those cases. Pass Prop 19 and you eliminate that. Our courts are backlogged enough.

So, you're concerned about using taxes to process possession and personal consumption cultivators out of the court and prison system, but alright with leveraging taxes on cannabis sales to be used to enforce new regulations which adds new restrictions to personal consumption and cultivation? I'm sure all the 18-20 year old smokers and cultivators who will be newly arrestable under Prop 19 will do much to reduce the burden on our court systems.

Are you even trying? Seriously.

TokinPodPilot said:

So, you're concerned about using taxes to process possession and personal consumption cultivators out of the court and prison system, but alright with leveraging taxes on cannabis sales to be used to enforce new regulations which adds new restrictions to personal consumption and cultivation? I'm sure all the 18-20 year old smokers and cultivators who will be newly arrestable under Prop 19 will do much to reduce the burden on our court systems.

Are you even trying? Seriously.

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I have many concerns, that just happens to be one. Listen, if you're against any taxes on commercial marijuana then I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Because we will never see eye to eye on that one no matter what reasoning either one of us chooses to present.

I'm not against taxes that are reasonable, and that we have a say in. Prop 19 doesn't do that. Personally, I don't really care if you don't see eye to eye with me. Your logical inconsistencies make it obvious that any discourse with you will be nothing but an exercise in futility. I'm correcting your blatant explusion of misinformation. The fear-mongering and lies coming from proponents are amusing, but not very responsible.

TokinPodPilot said:

I'm not against taxes that are reasonable, and that we have a say in. Prop 19 doesn't do that. Personally, I don't really care if you don't see eye to eye with me. Your logical inconsistencies make it obvious that any discourse with you will be nothing but an exercise in futility. I'm correcting your blatant explusion of misinformation. The fear-mongering and lies coming from proponents are amusing, but not very responsible.

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There you go....attack them personally if you can't address their points in a coherent fashion to sway them your way. Bravo.

I'm not attacking you. I'm expressing my indifference for you and your inconsistent logic. You downplay using taxes to keep smokers and cultivators out of jail, but endorse taxing cannabis to fund a new ambiguous regulatory process which has great potential to imprison smokers and cultivators. That is logically inconsistent. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but that's something you'll have to work on. Not my area of responsibility. As I said, I'm just correcting your misinformation and informing people. Way to play the victim, though.... try a big wooden cross next time, you might even be slightly convincing.

One thing this proposition is bringing out is the GREEDY...from both camps.

TokinPodPilot said:

I'm not attacking you. I'm expressing my indifference for you and your inconsistent logic. You downplay using taxes to keep smokers and cultivators out of jail, but endorse taxing cannabis to fund a new ambiguous regulatory process which has great potential to imprison smokers and cultivators. That is logically inconsistent. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but that's something you'll have to work on. Not my area of responsibility. As I said, I'm just correcting your misinformation and informing people. Way to play the victim, though.... try a big wooden cross next time, you might even be slightly convincing.

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I didn't downplay it. You made an unfounded statement on the taxes as the distribution of those taxes is still not set in stone or even on paper (in detail). So to say that the money would go towards funding a regulatory process would be an assumption on your part. True or not. It is merely your assumption and therefore not fact.

You're not as smart as you believe others think you are.

drherbalist said:

I didn't downplay it. You made an unfounded statement on the taxes as the distribution of those taxes is still not set in stone or even on paper (in detail). So to say that the money would go towards funding a regulatory process would be an assumption on your part. True or not. It is merely your assumption and therefore not fact.

You're not as smart as you believe others think you are.

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You just can't help yourself with this misinformation, can you? Is the initiative too hard to read for you or something?

From the Initiative text:

Section 11302: Imposition and Collection of Taxes and Fees
(a) Any ordinance, regulation or other act adopted pursuant to section 11301 may include imposition of appropriate general, special or excise, transfer or transaction taxes, benefit assessments, or fees, on any activity authorized pursuant to such enactment, in order to permit the local government to raise revenue, or to recoup any direct or indirect costs associated with the authorized activity, or the permitting or licensing scheme, including without limitation: administration; applications and issuance of licenses or permits; inspection of licensed premises and other enforcement of ordinances adopted under section 11301, including enforcement against unauthorized activities.

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Local government can determine what taxes to levy and collect, impose as many as they want and all that money is specified for program administration and enforcement of new regulations only. I won't bother with returning your insult, but would point out the hypocrisy of insulting someone to strengthen a weak argument right after alleging the same from them.

But since these would be NEW taxes would they not require a 2/3 majority vote to pass?

Prop 19 gives local government agencies the power to set taxes and regulations as they deem necessary with no oversight as to how regulations are enacted or written. The licensing fiasco in Oakland would become the norm should Prop 19 pass.

I must first apoligize for my late response. And wow thanks for all of the responses to everyone. In my own opinion with the proposition, I know and can support my opinion on the fact that most strands will be lost. Us Med. patients and casual smokers are the only reason we have such good strains. No thanks to the government which have destroyed strains that we will never see again.. Most people who are old school smokers talk about strains that the younger generations have never even heard of. Us smokers and medical patientssaved some like skunk, but now the government only is doing something because of the money they will gain. They can care a less about how long it took to develop Casie Jones, they just want money.

Im sorry to say, but I'm witnessing this first hand. To be totally honest with all of the readers, i will make more money if it is legal. Thats on top of the 6 million that I already gross per year. Well either way you vote just research this more. And yea, if you do vote yes, it doesn't mean we may never toke in the same room.

tty-all later

I also do believe, weather it passes or not, it really should be de-criminalized for all of us...I just dont see why anyone would let Uncle Sam take more money and at the same time making there sack smaller..lol ttyl

oh I just posted some pix of my outdoor grow...if you guys want to check it out.....my casie jones is 7ft. tall right now..