Proposition 19 CA

I don't care for the idea of legal marijuana, nor do I care for it being medicinally legal. Makes it seem like an oxicodone, perks, or lorazepams. To me anyways.
Its a multi billion dollar industry as it is and for those who have a head on their shoulders, they know how to keep their nose clean.
The goverment is already getting their cut anyways, why let them take more?

TokinPodPilot said:

OK... how about we don't need Prop 19.

Prop 19 is far from our only chance:

http://capwiz.com/norml2/issues/alert/?alertid=15196711

We don't need centralized distribution channels, we don't need an irrational vice tax and we certainly don't need or want those same taxes to be used to fund new regulatory actions which is exactly where the taxes collected by Prop 19 go. Not to the California economy, but to fund regulatory efforts. Meanwhile, the average small or medium grower has been putting money back into local economies through products and services bought, paying taxes and rent, through the same everyday activities that anyone else does. We're also the ones that go to jail for cannabis. Not you. As it stands now in California law, for the same ounce that everyone is going on and on about, you would be charged with the only misdemeanor in the state that doesn't incur jail time. You have to go to court, pay a fine and you have to take a class to keep your record clear. Inconveniences all that disappear with SB 1449, except the fine. Prop 19 is the real fear-mongering platform. Selling the people a package of new taxes and restrictions for rights that they already have and could stand to lose given the propensity of law enforcement and conservative government official to abusively misinterpret ambiguous law, speaks for itself as to the true intent of the man behind this initiative and those who'd so willingly hand him the reins. Those who want to make a real difference, please contact your State Assembly-person and tell them how important it is that they move forward on SB 1449.

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We shouldn't have to pay anything for possessing less than an ounce. So while I applaud the efforts of SB 1449 in further paving the way to a somewhat "rational" way to handle these "offenses", it still does not legalize small amounts the way that Prop 19 does.

drherbalist said:

We shouldn't have to pay anything for possessing less than an ounce. So while I applaud the efforts of SB 1449 in further paving the way to a somewhat "rational" way to handle these "offenses", it still does not legalize small amounts the way that Prop 19 does.

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That's fantastically logically inconsistent. Thank you. You don't want to pay for possessing less than an ounce, but you're suggesting that Prop 19, the TAX and Regulate Cannabis Act, is a better idea over diversion, which you only need and have to pay for AFTER the fact that you've been busted and charged. Prop 19 doesn't give any more freedoms or legalize pot anymore than it is already. The only thing it does is right in the title... add taxes and regulation to an existing network of localized and regionalized industries that is already providing jobs for hundreds of thousands of full and part-time workers and feeding money back into the communities where they reside.

TokinPodPilot said:

That's fantastically logically inconsistent. Thank you. You don't want to pay for possessing less than an ounce, but you're suggesting that Prop 19, the TAX and Regulate Cannabis Act, is a better idea over diversion, which you only need and have to pay for AFTER the fact that you've been busted and charged. Prop 19 doesn't give any more freedoms or legalize pot anymore than it is already. The only thing it does is right in the title... add taxes and regulation to an existing network of localized and regionalized industries that is already providing jobs for hundreds of thousands of full and part-time workers and feeding money back into the communities where they reside.

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How is that inconsistent? My statement was that we should not have to pay for the possession....as in if busted by cops and they were to find less than an ounce on a person, that would even be a fine. That is the part I was referring to.

What freedoms are you talking about pot already? It is still illegal in California unless you're a medical patient. So all those that are not medical patients can still be arrested and prosecuted under the current state law.

Finally, why should the "existing network of localized and regionalized industries" be able to get away with tax evasion when it comes to the income they generate selling their marijuana? Isn't that what is happening right now?

more and more people are realizeing that this is b/s in cali, im starting to see hydro stores and alott of people with vote no signs. The collective i go to every few days is pushing vote no hard. There are to many famillys in nor cal that depend on mmj to survive with our horrible economy. I wouldnt be supprised if it gets voted against, i mean every grower i know i pushing the vote no.

and drherbalist youve been on my case about credibility for days were are your garden shotts since your so involved in the mmj scene?

brickedup417 said:

more and more people are realizeing that this is b/s in cali, im starting to see hydro stores and alott of people with vote no signs. The collective i go to every few days is pushing vote no hard. There are to many famillys in nor cal that depend on mmj to survive with our horrible economy. I wouldnt be supprised if it gets voted against, i mean every grower i know i pushing the vote no.

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How will Prop 19 threaten those families?

it resticts every house to a 5x5 grow area not per script or person, one 5x5 area per house. I dont know if you live in cali or not but our economy and employment is crap, mmj is the only income most of those familys have, people here take pride in theyre growing and dont want to have to compete with companys like marlboro who will just ruin marijuana, call it unfair or whatever you want but with our employment rate you take away mmj income and most people are fkd.....this bill will probaly not pass


and what about this credibilty stuff, i wanna see some of your gaeden photos you have so much knowledge you must know alott about mmj.

Im sorry if I seem ignorant here but I have to weigh in

The current system in place in Cali allows "patients" to be in possession. Prop 19 allows any adult to be in posession and grow ( a little). So the small farmers are worried because they are going to loose $

Im am in now way a fan of big business. I dislike big business in every way I can describe but the end is still the end. there are people who are abusing the Medical system. This is a factor in preventing those Patients in other states from gaining the legal ability to purchase or cultivate medicine.

So financially speaking, the small growers are going to suffer. From a Civil Liberty standpoint, the PEOPLE would be free to have their plants

Just reads ( note I say reads ) a little hypocritical to me...

And lets not forget the suffering of those behind bars due to laws against this plant, those that have been there for years...and those that will continue to be put in prisons if we don't take the first step forward. The world is watching and counting on us to Vote Yes on Prop 19 in hopes that it gets the ball rolling for the rest of the world. I think the growers should be thinking ahead and figuring out ways that they can join the industry instead of putting so much effort into opposing it.

brickedup417 said:

it resticts every house to a 5x5 grow area not per script or person, one 5x5 area per house. I dont know if you live in cali or not but our economy and employment is crap, mmj is the only income most of those familys have, people here take pride in theyre growing and dont want to have to compete with companys like marlboro who will just ruin marijuana, call it unfair or whatever you want but with our employment rate you take away mmj income and most people are fkd.....this bill will probaly not pass
and what about this credibilty stuff, i wanna see some of your gaeden photos you have so much knowledge you must know alott about mmj.

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If you have a script then Prop 19 does NOTHING to change your growing situation. Please show me in the Prop where it states that the grow space for medical marijuana patients will be 5x5. It is not there because it isn't talking about medical marijuana.

ill tell you whos suffering, the one plant i might be able to putt in a 5x5

all this show me, show me lets see your grow man, i wanna see some reefer pics

brickedup417 said:

all this show me, show me lets see your grow man, i wanna see some reefer pics

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Haven't you seen enough reefer pics in your life man? lol Back to the topic Prop 19....not my grow. Or are you stalling for an answer? Google it..... lol

stalling you keep going on about credibility dude im sick of arguing with you , ive already gott infractions for this thread, im voteing no. peace out goin to enjoy my prop215 medication. unsubscribed

drherbalist said:

How is that inconsistent? My statement was that we should not have to pay for the possession....as in if busted by cops and they were to find less than an ounce on a person, that would even be a fine. That is the part I was referring to.

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The inconsistency lies in your willingness to vote in legislation that taxes possession while claiming to believe that we shouldn't have to pay for possession at all. The only time you pay the fee now is IF you are busted. Prop 19 taxes every sale thereby you are paying for possession.

drherbalist said:

What freedoms are you talking about pot already? It is still illegal in California unless you're a medical patient. So all those that are not medical patients can still be arrested and prosecuted under the current state law.

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See... you don't even know what you have. If it's for personal use, you can cultivate and possess as much as you want under current California law. No one gets arrested for possession or even for personal cultivation. What they get arrested for is "intent to sell". If you can reasonably prove that you aren't selling or have intention to sell, then you are eligible for diversion under Penal Code 1000. It's that simple. Even medical cultivators and patients can be caught up with the "intent to sell" if the law enforcement official/agency involved wants to be douche-y enough about it.

Facts are, for amounts up to one ounce, it is currently a minor misdemeanor for possession with no allowable jail time under current State law. Cultivation under current law and under Prop 19 will still require the accused to disprove "intent to sell". And that is a very important thing to remember... once you are in court, the burden is upon you to disprove intent to sell. The law enforcement official/agency involved has already provided enough probable cause to get a warrant issued for "intent to sell", that's why you're in court. The question is, do you want to go back to growing for yourself with no space or plant limitations or would you rather be confined to 5'x5'?

drherbalist said:

Finally, why should the "existing network of localized and regionalized industries" be able to get away with tax evasion when it comes to the income they generate selling their marijuana? Isn't that what is happening right now?

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What tax evasion? We already pay taxes... lots of them. Even Dick Lee pays his taxes. One of the quickest ways to get busted by the Feds is not to pay your taxes. How does farmers contributing to local economies turn into tax evasion? We pay taxes, we buy products, pay for services, pay rent and everything else that any other industry does to contribute to the community. Only we have to do it from the underground. Consider that irony... many of us have to FIND ways to pay our taxes to the Feds and the State, meaning we have to think up ways to declare the income we want to be taxed and legitimized while not letting on where it comes from.

drherbalist said:

And lets not forget the suffering of those behind bars due to laws against this plant, those that have been there for years...and those that will continue to be put in prisons if we don't take the first step forward. The world is watching and counting on us to Vote Yes on Prop 19 in hopes that it gets the ball rolling for the rest of the world. I think the growers should be thinking ahead and figuring out ways that they can join the industry instead of putting so much effort into opposing it.

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Prop 19 does nothing for those that are already incarcerated, doesn't really do anything to reduce the potential for being incarcerated, and does less than nothing to reduce the amount of persecution that cannabis users/cultivators face. If Prop 19 did any of that, we'd be right behind it. Cultivators don't need to figure out how to join the industry, they are a major component of the industry already. Cultivators oppose corporatization of the industry through discriminatory taxing and regulatory practice. Our industry runs just fine without big business.

TokinPodPilot said:

Prop 19 does nothing for those that are already incarcerated, doesn't really do anything to reduce the potential for being incarcerated, and does less than nothing to reduce the amount of persecution that cannabis users/cultivators face. If Prop 19 did any of that, we'd be right behind it. Cultivators don't need to figure out how to join the industry, they are a major component of the industry already. Cultivators oppose corporatization of the industry through discriminatory taxing and regulatory practice. Our industry runs just fine without big business.

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I never said that Prop 19 was going to do anything for those ALREADY in prison. Man, you opponents sure infer a lot. Quit putting words in my mouth and into the mouths of others as an argument.

Oh, and with the pricing for mmj being at where its at at collectives, black market prices...you know someone is making some ching. It does not cost that much. The growers don't pay taxes on the herb they've sold. So the bulk of their income becomes TAX FREE. Sure they pay a sales tax like every other individual when purchasing equipment and business supplies...but then so do homeless people. Where are the taxes on the actual sale of the herb?

"once you are in court, the burden is upon you to disprove intent to sell"

The burden of proof is on the prosecution... Always has been, always will be...

boofin said:

"once you are in court, the burden is upon you to disprove intent to sell"

The burden of proof is on the prosecution... Always has been, always will be...

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Sorry, lad... but once you're arrested and in court, the burden of proof shifts to you.