Plasma is the Future of growing!

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plasmargon

Member
I'm sure Ed would agree that the part of the UV-B that we are really looking for is UV-B narrow band (310 nm) the area that is being experimented with here in the US. There is gold in that range.

There is nothing beneficial about any frequency below 310 nm and this has been repeatedly proven over and over in tests. That's why plants greenhouse grown under UV-C/B shielded glass for the first half of it's life spread more quickly and yield more than grown naked outdoors, probably because of the early root developement.
 
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plasmargon

Member
plasmargon said:
I'm sure Ed would agree that the part of the UV-B that we are really looking for is UV-B narrow band (310 nm) the area that is being experimented with here in the US. There is gold in that range.

There is nothing beneficial about any frequency below 310 nm and this has been repeatedly proven over and over in tests. That's why plants greenhouse grown under UV-C/B shielded glass for the first half of it's life spread more quickly and yield more than grown naked outdoors, probably because of the early root developement.
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The problem is, finding a light source that doesn't drift much in it's frequency response, lights that are right on one month drift the next month. So you get widely differing results.

My solution is having a glass filter that cuts everything off under 310nm so it's not up to the sensitive bulb to regulate.
 
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plasmargon

Member
plasmargon said:
The problem is, finding a light source that doesn't drift much in it's frequency response, lights that are right on one month drift the next month. So you get widely differing results.

My solution is having a glass filter that cuts everything off under 310nm so it's not up to the sensitive bulb to regulate.
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One last thing Whazzup;
the only way you could or should consider higher temps are if you will be supplimenting CO2. That is the next level in Micro Climate Chambers. But then you have to have a sealed system so the light is cooled on it's own like our 'Sealed system'. Then you could continually cool the light while maintaining the CO2 levels. We use a 'Fuzzy Logic' CO2 monitor/ regulator from Sentry that mimics the best attributes of the Harvest Master without the price.

But even then, I would recommend UV shielding until the end of the veg stage for root developement THEN (after transplanting) UV stress the plants. This in conjunction with the increased CO2 and heat for some strange reason has been proven to increase yeilds. But the problem with that setup remains...the tops get hotter than the rest of the plant in most cases. So if you boost the room to 88-90 degrees F with 1250 ppm CO2, you have to be very carefull about the tops. So this technique is rarely used and only by those who really know what they're doing. Not something we want to try to mass produce.

But we know of better ways to get increased yields without the hassle or cost of CO2 enrichment. My plant rotators are the perfect example.
 
whazzup

whazzup

Well-Known Member
Are you replying and quoting yourself now Plasmargon? :confused:To be perfectly honest, I did not steal any ideas of you, I think we gave you more inspiration throughout the test process. Listen, you are the US distributor and Gavita is the European distributor right? So what is your problem? We do things different in Europe, and we both try to make a good product based on the LEP from Luxim (yes, we follow Luxim with the LEP). You were surprised that the high dose UVB did not kill our plants and adjusted your system. You took our remarks about the light loss of the glass serious and found a different material for that. Now who is inspiring who?

I ran into Ed at the Hortifair this week, it was not planned at all. Our German Plasma friends were on the trade show as well with their high power sulphur plasma lights. He was interested in the Plasma lights and wanted to see them, so I showed him.

If you want to contact Ed why don't you or haven't you done that before? I'm sure he will be interested, especially him being your friend. You make it sound like a personal battle "who gets Ed". If you know Ed you should know better than that. As a colleague writer I just shared our information, just like we do on the net.

Actually I even told him about your project too and the different views we had. I'm not going to talk for Ed and his recommendation to use CO2. Ed is a strong believer in CO2, I'm not going to have that discussion with you. We don't use CO2 in this grow. If you want to talk about CO2 with Ed, talk to Ed, not to me. I was just relaying his observations.

We had a long talk about light and his experiments with large doses of UVB light, which in his view is responsible for the great trichome development.

Please, let's stick to facts and openness to share with the growing community. We have a different approach to the product and how we share our trial with the market. I think it was you who mentioned that your friend Ed always said that you should be able to put your baby under the lights. you make it sound like a personal vendetta while I am just giving responses to your posts.

So, according to our obeservations and measurements: You have no climate problem with Plasma. You don't need to cool the light.

About your remarks about medicinal users: If you meant "the self medicating types who end up having more problems than they would if they used approprietly" you assume that I was talking about wannabe medicinal users. No, I am always talking about the small percentage real medicinal users. Not the ones who bought a card to legitimize their pot use. Personally I think that's a big problem for the medicinal cannabis community, and taking the piss out of the real cases like this is not respectful. Did we forget who the real needy medicinal users are? No disrespect to everyone who finds comfort and relief in smoking pot, but for some people it's a way of surviving.
 

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whazzup

whazzup

Well-Known Member
Reading back your posts I think I once more need to stress the fact that I do not work for Gavita. I am coordinating this test for our dutch and international forum, wietforum and opengrow. I am not going into personal battles, I am just discussing the product and how we think it can be used best.

One thing though:
plasmargon said:
The problem is, finding a light source that doesn't drift much in it's frequency response, lights that are right on one month drift the next month. So you get widely differing results.

My solution is having a glass filter that cuts everything off under 310nm so it's not up to the sensitive bulb to regulate.
Click to expand...
So now what you are saying is that you use the shield because the LEP isn't stable in it's UV frequency response?
 
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plasmargon

Member
whazzup said:
Reading back your posts I think I once more need to stress the fact that I do not work for Gavita. I am coordinating this test for our dutch and international forum, wietforum and opengrow. I am not going into personal battles, I am just discussing the product and how we think it can be used best.

One thing though:

So now what you are saying is that you use the shield because the LEP isn't stable in it's UV frequency response?
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Yeah, just like any light through time there is a shift in radiant energy. So I had to stablize it to get that specific response. It's like using a Equalizer in sound, roll off the unwanted frequecy response using a hard knee cut off filter.

And about the use of Sannies grow to improve my system...of course I'm gonna do that! I even told you right from the start that I was excited that they survived because of what it meant in my design. I've been completely honest about that.

Sorry about being sensitive, but I know you knew I was trying to get Ed to help, but you are right, there's plenty of room for him to help us (in the US) as well as you if he chooses.

I think we need to re-evaluate how we respond to each other.

I have been trying to make peace with your camp by peace offerings, but they are always shoved back in my face.

I have your correspondence when you said you where the man with Gavita (you injected yourself on Opengrow when I thought Doc was the man with Gavita)...so if there is anything to be said about that I'll have the resources to prove it. Look at your response above here...you keep using the word WE. But for now I apologize for the response.

Can we get past this? Thanks.:peace:

P.S. I wasn't responding to myself I was filling in missing pieces to clairify.
 
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plasmargon

Member
And yes, yes, yes to your clairification of the Medicinal user. That is exactly what I was trying to say. I see it every week. Plus, I haven't got to talk to Ed for a long time, he may have changed his opinion about UV, but I think we are seeing the refinement that the whole community is discovering about the same time.

UV-B narrow band (between UV-A and B) and up; very good...UV-B and below Baaaaad.

I'm sharing with you something of great import. I hope you see the value and desire for peace through this. I also hope the terrible direction of the politics over there is corrected, look at what happened to Alaska after they took the Raven act out of the constitutional interpretation...things became a police state, That sucks. Peace...
 
whazzup

whazzup

Well-Known Member
I have no problems just talking about the product. I seldom get emotional about it but I just don't like discussions without common shared data. So all I have to go on is my own data. It's not to rattle your bones, we have a difference in opinion and approach to the development, the technology and the openness in which we do our tests, and we operate on a different market. It's a sort of a culture clash.

I understand you are passionate about your product, but it sometimes feels like you are trying to prevent me getting to know your daughter ;)

You don't publish a lot of data. So every time you release some I jump on it and ask about it, or question it if I think it doesn't make sense. So I have this image in my head of an air-cooled LEP with a reflector and a thick long coax lead to the driver outside the room that only lights a very snall space very intensely (I don't even know how many plants and what surface), through turners that distribute the light more evenly and from more sides to the plant. For flowering I have no idea how you are going to light that space with the same reflector without hanging it a lot higher, and I have no idea how you want to apply some UVB in the last weeks without removing your shield, and I have no idea how you are going to complement the spectrum (or if you are). I read things about special cooling units, yet I have no idea what you have in mind as we see no temperature problem at all. Surely as the distributor for the hydroponics market in the US you can elaborate a bit more about your system, the way it works, why it works and what you can achieve with it. There is nobody else who is going to sell it in the US. I mean if you planned to do business with the distributors who ban any canna related public activities, or had an investor that did not want to be related to cannabis, you would already have crossed that line. So why don't you share with us your views on your microclimate room? We all understand that products evolve, just like your filter evolved and maybe you will find an even better material, but that doesn't change the basic setup and grow method. So here's my invitation to you!

I am for this test the contact to Gavita as I manage the project. Inquiries about the project are handled by me as I both have the close contact with sannie and Gavita. Doc is the leading man from Gavitas distributor for the Hydroponics market KJ Products, so naturally he has access to the same resources as I have. I think we explained that a few times on Opengrow. This test is originally a wietforum test, where I manage a section in which our members test new cutting edge and not so cutting edge technology, with products from different suppliers and manufacturers. We did a test on the re-introduction of the Gavita IR lamps, which were very popular amongst the local growers and breeders. So I already was in contact with Gavita. When I sent my request for information to Luxim early this year, I got an answer from Gavita through their local distributor :D. It's funny sometimes how small the world is. I published my first review of the light in an editorial about light basics in Dutch EssensiE Magazine August issue.

But back on topic: So basically what you did is apply a high-pass filter, which filters out the wavelengths below UVA, including all UVB. But it does not "stabilise"(I'd rather say filter) the light spectrum above the 320 nm, it's just a barrier for that light. So, do I understand correctly that you are saying that only under 320 nm the LEP light is instable? If not, how does the filter help stabilise the rest of the spectral output of the lamp?
 
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plasmargon

Member
@Drygrain, dude if you only wish you knew what this guy knows and my gorgeous fantastic wife told me to tell you to keep Ed's nuts out of your mouth and this topic.
 
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plasmargon

Member
whazzup said:
I have no problems just talking about the product. I seldom get emotional about it but I just don't like discussions without common shared data. So all I have to go on is my own data. It's not to rattle your bones, we have a difference in opinion and approach to the development, the technology and the openness in which we do our tests, and we operate on a different market. It's a sort of a culture clash.

I understand you are passionate about your product, but it sometimes feels like you are trying to prevent me getting to know your daughter ;)

You don't publish a lot of data. So every time you release some I jump on it and ask about it, or question it if I think it doesn't make sense. So I have this image in my head of an air-cooled LEP with a reflector and a thick long coax lead to the driver outside the room that only lights a very snall space very intensely (I don't even know how many plants and what surface), through turners that distribute the light more evenly and from more sides to the plant. For flowering I have no idea how you are going to light that space with the same reflector without hanging it a lot higher, and I have no idea how you want to apply some UVB in the last weeks without removing your shield, and I have no idea how you are going to complement the spectrum (or if you are). I read things about special cooling units, yet I have no idea what you have in mind as we see no temperature problem at all. Surely as the distributor for the hydroponics market in the US you can elaborate a bit more about your system, the way it works, why it works and what you can achieve with it. There is nobody else who is going to sell it in the US. I mean if you planned to do business with the distributors who ban any canna related public activities, or had an investor that did not want to be related to cannabis, you would already have crossed that line. So why don't you share with us your views on your microclimate room? We all understand that products evolve, just like your filter evolved and maybe you will find an even better material, but that doesn't change the basic setup and grow method. So here's my invitation to you!

I am for this test the contact to Gavita as I manage the project. Inquiries about the project are handled by me as I both have the close contact with sannie and Gavita. Doc is the leading man from Gavitas distributor for the Hydroponics market KJ Products, so naturally he has access to the same resources as I have. I think we explained that a few times on Opengrow. This test is originally a wietforum test, where I manage a section in which our members test new cutting edge and not so cutting edge technology, with products from different suppliers and manufacturers. We did a test on the re-introduction of the Gavita IR lamps, which were very popular amongst the local growers and breeders. So I already was in contact with Gavita. When I sent my request for information to Luxim early this year, I got an answer from Gavita through their local distributor :D. It's funny sometimes how small the world is. I published my first review of the light in an editorial about light basics in Dutch EssensiE Magazine August issue.

But back on topic: So basically what you did is apply a high-pass filter, which filters out the wavelengths below UVA, including all UVB. But it does not "stabilise"(I'd rather say filter) the light spectrum above the 320 nm, it's just a barrier for that light. So, do I understand correctly that you are saying that only under 320 nm the LEP light is instable? If not, how does the filter help stabilise the rest of the spectral output of the lamp?
Click to expand...
I love Gavita IR lights, if they could be water cooled that would be so awesome. But since they can't be I used them only for larger rooms.

On the LEP (PLS), just like every light, there is a spectral shift at the end of it's life. It shifts to the blue. So I determined that I would cut off everything BELOW 310nm. so toward the end of the life of the LEP the good UV will actually rise. the response is pretty much a flat line above 400nm fading in the red, so it all just shifts over. The only problem is there is less red then. So if people keep their emitters longer to get the extra 'Happy UV' I recommend red supplimentation LED's in the 662nm and 642nm range.

The rest of the info that I know you're looking for will be supplied after I get the US Pattent pending status.
 
whazzup

whazzup

Well-Known Member
Here's an interesting one for you. When the light starts up changing from up from UV trough blue to adding more red to get a full spectrum as the plasma warms up (attached).

I'm sure you have read about the research about UVC fungus control.

It might well be that this is a little extra you would get for free.

I think it would be wise to change the cell well before 12.000 hours (as average the light drops to 80%). That's still a lot of hours btw, If you grow 12/12 constantly it's more than 3 years. 18/6 every 2 years. Fortunately it's just a little cell to change. But no grower will wait until he has 20% less light. So I think that the frequency shift won't be that bad. The old cell is still nice for theatre use ;)

Quote luxim: "At 30,000 hours, the lumen maintenance or the amount of light output as a percentage of initial output is above 65% on average. Lighting installers typically perform group re-lamping when the light output is 70% of original brightness; the 70% lumen maintenance occurs at 25,000 hours for a typical LIFI source." So at 12,000 hours we not even half way its life.

I believe that frequencies shift in every light, but I have not seen any strong indications, reports or expectations that this should lead to very harmful radiation.

The other aspect of the matter is that for this assumption you are still willing to sacrifice (in ideal situations) at least 5% light, and with a remote driver even up to 10% or more. Personally I'd rather bring the light a bit further from the crop.

But we'll wait for the patent

In the meanwhile: The first seeds are looking very good, not very sterile ;)

 

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l333t

Well-Known Member
plasma going to take forever for the most grow to convert but this cool plus i heard bad things about leds for flowering
 
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plasmargon

Member
Very cool guys, I'm grateful for the knowledge. Good job Sannie. (it will be really cool if there is no residual genetic effect)

How did the yield do for your un-seeded chamber?

I also love how reliable these lights are...that's definately one of the better selling points, only losing 20% after 3 years.

I don't think people realize the potential here. I got excited the moment I saw this light last year and it hasn't disapointed me in the least. This is the first major leap forward in horticultural lighting since digital ballasts. They've only had less than a year in the exploring the use of this for growing...imagine where it will be in the time LED's have had to dissapoint everyone.

In my use of turntables and micro-climate chambers LED supplimentaion is very easy to get close and distributed. Focus individual clusters at the canopy and the turntables do thier job, the whole plant gets major amounts of RED on top of the perfect foundation of light,:bigjoint: LEP!
 
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plasmargon

Member
Oh yeah about the warm up time, the same effect is accomplished as you know from turning the fader down. Major shift to the blue range.

The reason I call this light the perfect foundational light is; it hits all the foundational spectral frequecies for Root and foliage production, then ADD red LED's for the perfect budding combo. There isn't a light out there that can hit all the needed PAR frequencies without wasting major amounts of light. With this 180 Watt LEP system and half again the amount of RED LED's (100 total watts in very close proximity) in the 662nm and 642 range, puts just the right lobe in the Red side of spectral response. Now we're talkin PAR!
 
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