Plant Moisture Stress - Symptoms and Solutions

DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
riddleme said:
not about hydrotron? I got the idea from Big Mike (hate to mention him here) from his PH Manifesto plus he has a video of plants being grown in the sunshine mix #4 with hydrotron, I also (having read it) did a lot of research on calcined clay, it has many benefits, why I do it (my ditty on it is in my Riddleme's Nuggets) hell I'm transplantin em now into it

And not argueing, as I have no research on putting 2 inches of hydrotron in the bottom of the pot, I just do it and since I have had no problems I keep doing it, I think that is the X = Y for me???
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If you have read Taplas Container soils and water in containers, then you would know why putting the balls there wouldn't help any, and I do think X=Y is true for you in this case. We've all falsely attributed results to an action, and sometimes it can take awhile to see around that big elephant to the truth.

Besides, why use hydroton at the bottom, when there are better setups available? Fabric bags are great for increasing root mass, and your missing out on a lot of space for them to be root pruned by blocking off the bottom of the container.
 
riddleme

riddleme

Well-Known Member
DaveCoulier said:
If you have read Taplas Container soils and water in containers, then you would know why putting the balls there wouldn't help any, and I do think X=Y is true for you in this case. We've all falsely attributed results to an action, and sometimes it can take awhile to see around that big elephant to the truth.

Besides, why use hydroton at the bottom, when there are better setups available? Fabric bags are great for increasing root mass, and your missing out on a lot of space for them to be root pruned by blocking off the bottom of the container.
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Thanks for the info I'll be checkin it out
 
J

jjfoo

Active Member
riddleme said:
to keep the soil from compacting at the drain holes and slowing drainage down (or stopping drainage altogether)
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First off, your soil shouldn't compact in the time it takes a plant to flower and veg, if so I would not fix it my adding stuff but rather using soil that doesn't compact in the time frame that it will be used. Have you read the stuff on gardenweb from Al Tapla? He makes some really good points on why doing this is not necessary and can actually slow drainage. I know it seems to make sense but the science behind it seems to indicate other wise. Did you see the supporting info I provided in the link?

I dont' think it is about holes not getting blocked but rather about capilary action and surface tension holding the water near the bottom.

I share Tapla's view that this is a common error based on myth. I had an argument with a guy (in person) about this and offered to do some actual measurements in the sink, but he said 'no, I *know* the hydroton helps'. Hard to argue with that...

Can you point me to someone who has measured this (unless you have). I am assuming that you have never actually measured this but are taking someones word for it. I'd like some type of scientific explanation to better understand your idea.
 
J

jjfoo

Active Member
DaveCoulier said:
Fabric bags are great for increasing root mass, and your missing out on a lot of space for them to be root pruned by blocking off the bottom of the container.
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Have you seen any improvements with fabric bags? I've used smart pots (fabric pots) and they seem to work the same as my regular pots. Maybe, I'm not seeing the improvement because I am using too much medium in general. If I use more smart pots I'll probably using the as the final location. I hate transplant out of them. I usually have to unroll the pot instead of just popping out the root ball with plastic.
 
riddleme

riddleme

Well-Known Member
jjfoo said:
First off, your soil shouldn't compact in the time it takes a plant to flower and veg, if so I would not fix it my adding stuff but rather using soil that doesn't compact in the time frame that it will be used. Have you read the stuff on gardenweb from Al Tapla? He makes some really good points on why doing this is not necessary and can actually slow drainage. I know it seems to make sense but the science behind it seems to indicate other wise. Did you see the supporting info I provided in the link?

I dont' think it is about holes not getting blocked but rather about capilary action and surface tension holding the water near the bottom.

I share Tapla's view that this is a common error based on myth. I had an argument with a guy (in person) about this and offered to do some actual measurements in the sink, but he said 'no, I *know* the hydroton helps'. Hard to argue with that...

Can you point me to someone who has measured this (unless you have). I am assuming that you have never actually measured this but are taking someones word for it. I'd like some type of scientific explanation to better understand your idea.
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well I like to find the truth that a myth is born from and I can find a lot of regular garden forums that say to do this, such as this one

Putting rocks or gravel, or broken pottery or popcorn styrofoam in the bottom of pots is needed to assist with drainage. Especially if the pot does not have any drainage holes in it. Very few plants like to sit in standing water, unless they are bog plants. Because the plants are not in the ground, where water can just seep away if there is too much, the rock keeps a bit of space open for the water to seep to if the soil is too wet.

To actually make this work more efficiently, you might try putting a coffee filter, old nylon stocking or something pourous between the drainage material and the soil. This prevents all the soil washing into the rock and filling up all your drainage so there is no where for the water to go.

Of course ideally, your pot should have drainage holes, and a tray underneath, in which case the drainage material is not as necessary, although I use it anyway.
I use a combination of all three, rock, gravel and pottery in all of my container planting, indoors or out.


Val
_________________
VAL (Grandpa's Rose)
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but the truth is that it is recommended for pots that do not have drain holes, to prvent the roots from sitting in water and rotting

Hydrotron mixed in soil is a good thing as it retains water like perlite and adds sulfer (slowly like dolomite)
 
DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
riddleme said:
well I like to find the truth that a myth is born from and I can find a lot of regular garden forums that say to do this, such as this one



but the truth is that it is recommended for pots that do not have drain holes, to prvent the roots from sitting in water and rotting

Hydrotron mixed in soil is a good thing as it retains water like perlite and adds sulfer (slowly like dolomite)
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There's alot of misinformation out there. We only need to look at the threads/posts on any mj forum to see that.

Putting drainage layers in pots without drain holes will still not prevent root rot. All the drainage layer does is raise the perched water table higher in the pot, and well water isn't going to drain from that area into the drainage layer because of capillary action is too much for gravity to overcome, and the water stays right where it is.

Ive got another link you'll appreciate about drainage layers from someone with a PHd in horticulture.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Container%20drainage.pdf
 
DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
jjfoo said:
Have you seen any improvements with fabric bags? I've used smart pots (fabric pots) and they seem to work the same as my regular pots. Maybe, I'm not seeing the improvement because I am using too much medium in general. If I use more smart pots I'll probably using the as the final location. I hate transplant out of them. I usually have to unroll the pot instead of just popping out the root ball with plastic.
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Its hard to say if fabric bags are the main factor in increased growth rate for this grow over previous ones, but I would imagine they played a role. The jump in growth has been too huge for me to not think its played a role. Alot of things need to be dialed in before one can see a growth increase with them. If other things are going wrong, then root pruning bags wont be able to compensate for short comings elsewhere.

As for transplanting with them, just place the bag into another bag and forget about rolling the bags down. Of course thats not always an option with smart pots because they are so expensive, which is why I use Root Pouch. They work on the same principle, but are made from recycled denim and themselves are biodegradable and only cost me $.37 for a 3 gallon bag that will last about 15 months maybe even longer.
 
wolftickets500

wolftickets500

Member
thats a great post. tons of info. i have been wondering about fusarium wilt i think it could be affecting my plants, current and in the past. i have also had a few friends who had the same thing happen. first all the leaves curl under but they stay green just not as lush green. then all the leaves from the bottom up,along with the flower pistils,trichomes all fall off. its almost as if the plant no longer desires water because it wont grow anymore. not height or girth. its driving me crazy the only way i have defeated it is to streilize all equipment and move to a new location. it also seem as if one plant will infect another.
 
Friendwithweed

Friendwithweed

Active Member
Dear Uncle Ben and all enlightened ones

After reading through this entire thread I can say that I have been humbled and feel like a fool for buying into all the hype and snake oil. Your methods make 100% sense and I can't believe how easy it was to believe all the bullshit. You have straightened out things that have confused me for years and now it all clicks easily. I have a new direction for my hobby as well as a new attitude. Peace to all.

GS
 
iburnkush

iburnkush

Member
2 of my plants have leaves curling at the tips and one of them has leaves rolling up. the bottom leaves are turning yellow and wilting. i give them a generous amount of water once a day. i dont have a high tech system. just a watering can. now i put miracle grow soil in the with my mixture of soil and it says it feeds for 9 months. i put a few pinches of plant food in every couple watering cans. i beleive that the curling and rolling may be due to over watering or over feeding. how do i tell and what should i do instead??
 
DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
iburnkush said:
2 of my plants have leaves curling at the tips and one of them has leaves rolling up. the bottom leaves are turning yellow and wilting. i give them a generous amount of water once a day. i dont have a high tech system. just a watering can. now i put miracle grow soil in the with my mixture of soil and it says it feeds for 9 months. i put a few pinches of plant food in every couple watering cans. i beleive that the curling and rolling may be due to over watering or over feeding. how do i tell and what should i do instead??
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You shouldn't need to water your plants every day unless you A.) have a very fast draining soil(unlikely as any soil sold in stores does not fit this criteria), or B.) your plants are quite large and require alot of water. When lower leaves turn yellow and wilt or fall off its often because the plant isnt able to uptake water. This can be caused by under-watering, or over-watering to the point of damaging your roots.

The best way to tell when to water your plants is to look at your lower leaves. If they are a healthy green, and rigid, you are doing a good job and should continue watering as is. If they are limp, yellow, and the soil is still wet, you are likely over-watering.

The leaf cupping is usually a sign of heat stress. Maybe you should try to back the lights off more. Its hard to know without pictures though.

Id cut back on the food too, since your soil probably is doing jut fine in feeding your plants.
 
iburnkush

iburnkush

Member
thnx man that sounds spot on. i have them outside mostly and i only have a flourecent light wich doesnt get hot at all but i keep them right in the sun so thats prob y thy are cupping. they also have small white spots on the top of the leaves. sun spots for plants???
 
DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
iburnkush said:
thnx man that sounds spot on. i have them outside mostly and i only have a flourecent light wich doesnt get hot at all but i keep them right in the sun so thats prob y thy are cupping. they also have small white spots on the top of the leaves. sun spots for plants???
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Small white spots on the top of leaves are usually spider mites. I would check the underside of the leaves with a pocket scope to verify. At the very least google spider mites and check out some pictures to see if its the same.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Friendwithweed said:
Dear Uncle Ben and all enlightened ones

After reading through this entire thread I can say that I have been humbled and feel like a fool for buying into all the hype and snake oil. Your methods make 100% sense and I can't believe how easy it was to believe all the bullshit. You have straightened out things that have confused me for years and now it all clicks easily. I have a new direction for my hobby as well as a new attitude. Peace to all.

GS
Click to expand...
Happens to the best of us. I'd say that 80% of the cannabis biz (and forums) is just plain bullshit. It's all about the money. Empower yourself by learning what makes a plant tick and spend a hour reading this.
http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm


iburnkush said:
2 of my plants have leaves curling at the tips and one of them has leaves rolling up. the bottom leaves are turning yellow and wilting.
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Some kind of stress, could be a dozen different issues or a combo. Sounds like too many salts to me. Oh, did you say how much Miracle Gro" you're giving them? Plants have a saturation point regarding all external influences - light, salts, water, temps, wind, CO2....... It's your job to find out what those saturation points are relative to plant health and The Balance.

UB
 
Danielsgb

Danielsgb

Well-Known Member
Hey Uncle Ben, Good to see ya post. Been busy?
Do you have a quick link for some info on the 'Bullshit of Organics' in general? I remember you mentioned something (well many times, I'm pretty sure) about Organic stuff being a big marketing scam. I'm loving that Jack's 20-20-20. Great nute. I sent my newest soil mix to Agri-life and I think it is pretty close to what I wanted.
Daniels
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Danielsgb said:
Hey Uncle Ben, Good to see ya post. Been busy?
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Howdy! Yeah, damn busy plus I still don't like the feel of the new site lameout. This place is pretty thin these days.

Do you have a quick link for some info on the 'Bullshit of Organics' in general? I remember you mentioned something (well many times, I'm pretty sure) about Organic stuff being a big marketing scam. I'm loving that Jack's 20-20-20. Great nute. I sent my newest soil mix to Agri-life and I think it is pretty close to what I wanted.
Daniels
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Sounds like you're on the right track, good on ya. Regarding organics, you really don't know what's in them, and, if they didn't contain chemicals or had the ability to convert into chemicals, they would be useless. Going "organic" just gives one the appearance that you're "cool" or "good" so you can charge 3 times more. Here's a highly respected PhD hit at the organics myths: http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/index.html

Yeah, Peters 20-20-20 is a good all around food. High in urea so it's pretty hard to burn your plants.

Good luck!
 
R

robbie4door

Member
photo_3.jpgphoto.jpgphoto_2.jpgphoto_4.jpgphoto_5.jpg
ben i need your wisdom
what do i need/ dont /do help befor the fall
i use botanicare pure blend pro its a 1-4-5 . started that at start of budding
i add 6 tsp per 5 gall bucket every third watering ( is that enough)
before that i used botonicare pur pro 3-2-4 for veg, on both i added botanicare liquid karma
.3-.3-.5 for my mac nutriants. the problem started before i changed nutrians and has bothered me for well over a month now
please help 3rd grow i guess still a lot to learn but love the lessons ( all help welcome)
 
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