Plant Moisture Stress - Symptoms and Solutions

Uncle Ben said:

Dave, just posted the same thing about Brita in CountryFarmer's thread. A point reduction is about right especially if high in bi-carbs. Brita filtered water would be perfect regarding his well water.

What I do before planting to drop the soil's pH:

1. Add quite a bit of peat moss,

2. Add granulated sulfur (pastules).

After planting:

1. Add/scratch in peat moss,

2. Add/scratch in about a Tblsp. of powdered sulfur to a 3-5 gallon pot,

3. Use acid foods like azalea, 21-7-7,

4. Use sulfate type salts - ammonium sulfate, iron sulfate, and finally,

5. Don't worry about it unless you can directly attribute some deficiency or imbalance to pH. Cannabis is very pH tolerant contrary to forum "popular' thought.

Run the tests - pH adjusted water does little to adjust the soil's pH on a long term basis. Soil is a powerful buffer.

If you must - an inorganic acid like sulfuric, phosphoric, or nitric is much more stable (effective) than an organic acid like citric. Adding it may (temporarily) change the top 1" or so but what have you got at the bottom of the pot where the majority of your feeder roots are located? A cheap source of sulfuric is battery acid from an auto parts store.

UB

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High UB!

The soil I'm using was mixed up at my last grow location, where the TA wasn't this high. We tested the well water, and everything was OK....but it changed, got a lot harder.
The soil had some lime mixed in, and combined with the very hard water, I was worried.

I really appreciate your comments on sulfur.....I've got some. Shall I go ahead and put a tbsp in each pot? They are 3 gallon pots.

I have the ability to mix with RO without too much trouble....but I really miss being able to crack the hose bib and water with the wand.

The plants are superbly healthy at this time....but I did see signs of stress when using untreated well water. What with the gypsum, epsom salt and lime added to the soil, I think there was just too much.

The new soil has no lime and is peat based....with a good amount of poop. Should be able to handle to water.

If the plants are healthy, then what is the issue?

Uncle Ben said:

If the plants are healthy, then what is the issue?

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Well, they're healthy now....and I'm diluting the well water with RO to get the TA down to about 100. The well water is over 600...not sure how high because I stopped testing it at that point.

I feel that's just too high!

The plants are freakin' gorgeous, and I don't want to change anything.

Next cycle, no lime and I'll add sulfur.

DocBud said:

Well, they're healthy now....and I'm diluting the well water with RO to get the TA down to about 100. The well water is over 600...not sure how high because I stopped testing it at that point.

I feel that's just too high!

The plants are freakin' gorgeous, and I don't want to change anything.

Next cycle, no lime and I'll add sulfur.

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I'd leave "well" enough alone lol. Plants need plenty of Ca which you can get in dolomite lime. What you need to consider is how much total salts your plants can take before they stress out or there's damage to the roothairs. You need to consider salts in organic/inorganic foods, water, soil nutrient charge, etc.

You are on the right track regarding your water quality. I too have extremely hard well water so I know what you're faced with.

Wish I had more to add or advice. I hope you won. That battle sucks. They took down a Bonsai of mine many years ago. I share that passion of hate. Good Luck
Daniels

thought I'd update....it's not looking good for a couple of my plants...not sure if they will make it! I'm sad! Not sure what to do...my mites are def gone and now my plants are fucked! any advice is appreciated....

MsApple said:

thought I'd update....it's not looking good for a couple of my plants...not sure if they will make it! I'm sad! Not sure what to do...my mites are def gone and now my plants are fucked! any advice is appreciated....

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Your plants have been to hell and back, give them time to recover.

Yeah, give them a few days and if you lose them, write it off to experience. For mite control, 3 blasts of water to the leaves 5 days apart or a low dose of malathion is a sure kill.

Good luck,
Uncle Ben

I had that shit in my hand at the damn store....malathion....isn't that shit lethal to plants... like how would you dose it? I mean I don't have to worry bout it now, but maybe for future reference... oh and my plants all have new growth...they have dried up pretty good, so I gave them a lil food, like a quarter of the water and food I usually do and I figured maybe if I wait a lil while later I'll give them a quarter more... don't wanna hurt them no more than they already have!

MsApple said:

I had that shit in my hand at the damn store....malathion....isn't that shit lethal to plants... like how would you dose it? I mean I don't have to worry bout it now, but maybe for future reference... oh and my plants all have new growth...they have dried up pretty good, so I gave them a lil food, like a quarter of the water and food I usually do and I figured maybe if I wait a lil while later I'll give them a quarter more... don't wanna hurt them no more than they already have!

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If Malathion was lethal to plants....UB would not have recommended it. He's a crustly old bastard, who is guilty of many, many sins.....but he's never told anyone to go out and kill their plants.

I knew Malathion was good for white flies....but I did not know it would work on mites. I have some for the veggie garden (use it before the fruit comes out) but I've never considered using it on mites.

Live and learn.

DocBud said:

If Malathion was lethal to plants....UB would not have recommended it. He's a crustly old bastard, who is guilty of many, many sins.....but he's never told anyone to go out and kill their plants.

I knew Malathion was good for white flies....but I did not know it would work on mites. I have some for the veggie garden (use it before the fruit comes out) but I've never considered using it on mites.

Live and learn.

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RockyMountainHigh just sprayed his outdoor garden with malathion last week to get rid of mites, it works great, but take precautions, cover your eyes, wear gloves and a breathing mask, shit is danderous

That's what I was saying... I didn't mean he was giving me advice to kill my plants...I heard it works, but this was after the fact... and I didn't mean to plants I meant to me! I was asking...

MsApple said:

That's what I was saying... I didn't mean he was giving me advice to kill my plants...I heard it works, but this was after the fact... and I didn't mean to plants I meant to me! I was asking...

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Ah.....nevermind.

fooshizzle said:

Uncle Ben:

What do you think these are the problems with these plants? I'm a noob and not very familiar with diagnosing problems. Is the leaf curling at the tips maybe a slight nutrient overdose? The plants were fed at 1300ppm for the 2nd week on a feed one day water next cycle. This doesn't look like heat stress because the tips of leaves aren't brown. The ppm was dropped down to 900 and I think it fixed the problem. Will the leaves return to normal if the problem is fixed or do you have to watch new growth?

Also, I dont know if you can see the detail in the pics but I think there is a nutrient deficiency in some of the leaves and I notice that new growth is very light green in color, maybe thats normal until the leaves mature. GH feeding program with CalMag suppliment.

There is one other factor that might contribute to what your seeing. 1 week ago there spider mites were spotted and the plants received 2 treatments of Azatrol (one spray & one feed), one Safe insecticide soap spraying, and 1 spraying of Zero Tolerance Herbal pesticide. From what I know the mites are gone. The underside of leaves are checked everyday for eggs or new signs of hatched eggs. Avid was not used, that stuff is bad news for everybody.

I've read a lot of your posts and any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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Hey bro....while waiting for UB to jump in, have you read the first 5 or 6 pages of this thread? The answer is that you over fed them and you have nutrient burn, and there may be some damage from the mites....which are hopefully dead. I doubt they're all dead, however....so be on the lookout.

The good news is that your plants will probably recover if you quit burning them. The new growth will be OK, the damaged leaves will stay that way, but may still photosynthesize a bit.

Try running a bunch of water through the pots with no feed and then feed them with a very weak mixture the next time you water.

BTW, feeding them more than they need doesn't make them grow bigger or faster....quite the opposite.

fooshizzle said:

Uncle Ben:

What do you think these are the problems with these plants? I'm a noob and not very familiar with diagnosing problems. Is the leaf curling at the tips maybe a slight nutrient overdose? The plants were fed at 1300ppm for the 2nd week on a feed one day water next cycle. This doesn't look like heat stress because the tips of leaves aren't brown. The ppm was dropped down to 900 and I think it fixed the problem. Will the leaves return to normal if the problem is fixed or do you have to watch new growth?

Also, I dont know if you can see the detail in the pics but I think there is a nutrient deficiency in some of the leaves and I notice that new growth is very light green in color, maybe thats normal until the leaves mature. GH feeding program with CalMag suppliment.

There is one other factor that might contribute to what your seeing. 1 week ago there spider mites were spotted and the plants received 2 treatments of Azatrol (one spray & one feed), one Safe insecticide soap spraying, and 1 spraying of Zero Tolerance Herbal pesticide. From what I know the mites are gone. The underside of leaves are checked everyday for eggs or new signs of hatched eggs. Avid was not used, that stuff is bad news for everybody.

I've read a lot of your posts and any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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Docbud is spot on. Old leaves will not return to normal, the damage has been done. Look at new production to see if you're on the right track.

Malathion was designed for plant pest control about 50 years ago. Dangerous to plants? What are they teaching you guys in school or do you feel more comfortable taking "advice" from some forum geek rather than a *knowledgeable* college educated pro, or a farm advisor with a pHd? Want to damage your plant's leaves, keep using organic pesticide like Safer's soap, which is about as caustic as a spray can get. Run a pH test on that stuff, betcha it's around 11.

I've pretty much bathed in malathion using an airblast sprayer commercially and my blood chemistry and health is excellent. Of course I take a quick bath after finishing out about 110 gal. of spray and only spray when the winds are calm but it never fails - I'll come around an end of a row and the wind will kick up just enough to where I catch some of the mist. Malathion is one of the least toxic organophosphates out there. It will degrade into a phosphate within about 5 days so to get the first cycle eggs/larvae you'll need to treat again, in about 5 days. Always add a surfactant or the spray's effectiveness will be lost.

The effectiveness of pesticides, "organic" or conventional is ENTIRELY dependent on the life cycle of your pest. Just as organic has to contain chemicals to be effective, "organic" pesticides must be toxic to be effective, it's all about the 'degree of toxicity' regarding health issues and pest control.

Timing your sprays is everything. Know when to spray for larvae or adult control and if there are various stages of instars (different types of larvae production) know when that happens and when to treat.

Pyrethrins, a synthetic nicotinoid, is one of your lowest toxic chemicals to man and fish, found in Spectracide but I don't think it's effective against mites. It's a real ass kicker for all pests, residual is about 10 days...... really the silver bullet for growers. Malathion and kelthane are your best bets for mite control or like a said a strong blast of water to dislodge 'em. Case in point - where my friends lost their tomato plants to mites early this summer (mites thrive under drought and heat conditions), my maters are still going strong (7' tall) thanks to my daily blasts of water which has given me complete mite control.

Good luck,
UB

Thanks for the quick reply! I will not use Safer soap any more. What would you use as a surfactant?
I'm going to plan on using Malathion for my next spray to make sure I get any eggs that hatch.

What is your technique for spraying the leaves of eggs and mites? How do you prepare the water? And do you spray tops and bottoms of all leaves or just infected leaves?

Thanks for the help.

fooshizzle said:

Thanks for the quick reply! I will not use Safer soap any more. What would you use as a surfactant?
I'm going to plan on using Malathion for my next spray to make sure I get any eggs that hatch.

What is your technique for spraying the leaves of eggs and mites? How do you prepare the water? And do you spray tops and bottoms of all leaves or just infected leaves?

Thanks for the help.

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I've never lost a battle to mites....have had 'em twice, first time due to hot, arid weather. They probably snuck in when I opened the door to the grow room.....the most recent time, 2 weeks ago....because the clones I got were infested.

I've not used Malathion, but I do understand mites.....

A surfactant is nothing more than a detergent and a good safe one to use would be a mild dish soap, or my favorite, Dr. Brunner's Pure Castille Soap. I like the latter because the guy is a total nut-job and if you tell people you use that soap for insect control they get all excited, like you're a good friend to the earth, etc. You just want a few drops per gallon....it helps the water stick to the plants, basically.

My advice for mites, above and beyond raising humidity, lowering temps and physically dislodging them with water, which not everyone can do with their set up is to get a trio of miticides:

Floramite
Avid
Forbid
Vendex
Judo
Malathion (If UB uses it, it's good enough for me. I got a bottle today.)

Take your pick, just get 3. Try to only use each product once per year, so you don't breed supermites.

Spray the underside of the leaves, preferably when the lights go out. Some of the products will kill adults, juveniles and eggs.....some will not. Read the label carefully. Some have a long residual effect, some not so long....some are translaminar (you can spray the tops of the leaves and it will soak through and kill the hippies on the bottom) others are systemic, others are contact killers.....read the label.

My first choice is always Floramite SC, because of the residual killing effect and the fact that it kills eggs.

Others may have to be spray 5 days later....read the label.

After spraying, I use a Hot Shot No Pest Strip, from Home dePot. less than 10 bucks. Hang one of these in your room and the mites will die....but I really like the knockdown power of the products I mentioned.

Also, the NPS, although supposedly "safe" for humans IF USED PROPERLY, is going to be putting out gas for 4 months, whereas with the sprays, you can put on the mask, spray, and get the hell out for a couple days.

For me, a single spray and NPS has kept the mites from damaging a single leaf beyond repair....I've never come close to losing a crop.

Don't waste your time on lightweight stuff....get the big guns out, take no prisoners, show no mercy.

Thank you for the great advise about how to control mites. Im finding that there's to many urban legends spreading around about how to effectively kill mites. I'm going to try the Hot shot no pest strip and Brunner's soap on my maters. I really am trying not to use any ornamental miticide because they are normally not good for people to get around, touch, or injest unless past the half life which still means half of the chemical is still on the plant including when you harvest and touch your veggies. Those chemi's work wonders but I don't think there safe for humans at all. The US has only 15% of all chemicals tested for carcinogens and the research I've done so far says that the ornamental type sprays are called that because their not approved for agricultural use. It may not hurt you right away but will build up in toxicity in your body over time, kinda like mercury. I just get really nervous around commercial chemi's. what's your thoughts?

fooshizzle said:

Thank you for the great advise about how to control mites. Im finding that there's to many urban legends spreading around about how to effectively kill mites. I'm going to try the Hot shot no pest strip and Brunner's soap on my maters. I really am trying not to use any ornamental miticide because they are normally not good for people to get around, touch, or injest unless past the half life which still means half of the chemical is still on the plant including when you harvest and touch your veggies. Those chemi's work wonders but I don't think there safe for humans at all. The US has only 15% of all chemicals tested for carcinogens and the research I've done so far says that the ornamental type sprays are called that because their not approved for agricultural use. It may not hurt you right away but will build up in toxicity in your body over time, kinda like mercury. I just get really nervous around commercial chemi's. what's your thoughts?

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Well, first of all, I recommended the soap as a surfactant....not a miticide. So, please don't use it as a miticide. It won't work that way.

Second.....a product like Floramite doesn't kill all bugs....it won't hurt ladybugs and predator mites. It isn't that dangerous if used correctly. (use it correctly....not 2 weeks before you harvest.)

Also, Malathion has been used for many years on tomatoes.....not dangerous if used properly.

If you're late in flower, you don't want to use chemicals. Use Dr. Doom. You can't taste it, and it won't hurt you. You can use it right up until the day of harvest. The neem oils taste bad, same with horticultural oil.

The main thing is the be vigilant in the garden and catch these bastards fast. If you have mites now.....I guarantee you'll have them again, so you might as well get the good stuff.