Phenotype hunting - vegging vs flowering

MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
Then why reply to a thread where the op is looking for the biggest yields and not quality.

Some here infringe their own personal grow path on others that are not looking for the same results,



If you want the biggest yields then clone the fastest and biggest plants and select from them, if you want the best quality grow 100 plants and select the strongest.

Lets not confuse simple practice :-)
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This time I responded to you.

Biggest yield belongs to the longest flowering plants usually. You said that’s crazy for business. I didnt know we were talking strictly business.

For fast turnover you want the fastest vegging plants as they will be turning 12/12 early for a sea of green. That is the best way for business if you don’t care about plant potential. Grow a ton of little plants over and over as fast as possible. Yield per year not per plant.

This thread was about veg and yield.
 
Helmut79

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
So you all agree upon the idea that bigger/faster vegging plants will probably be the ones that will be the biggest yielders per year - in the other words after all we can make the first part of selection in the veg stage? - choosing the biggest plants just before 12/12 for the purpose of moneymaking.

Does it sound right?
 
ANC

ANC

Well-Known Member
learn to run one strain, harvest after harvest. You will see that a lot of pheno is just the sum total of circumstance.
The same line of clones can taste and moke like shit if grown by a noob.
 
Helmut79

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
If you want the biggest yields then clone the fastest and biggest plants and select from them, if you want the best quality grow 100 plants and select the strongest.
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This post was exactly what I was assuming myself, but would be nice if few more people would back this up.
 
davillains

davillains

Well-Known Member
I have no experience with breeding but during the current run I have come across a really vigorous Blue Dream (HSO) with the best smell between the 3 phenotypes I have running. It is sativa leaning and after flipping the cycle to 12h it has stretched to almost 6.5ft (from around 1.3ft). I've never seen such fast and vigorous growth on a plant before. It's on it's 7th week of flowering right now and I can't say I'm impressed with the bud density and formation but for a sativa I guess it's ok (the other sativa pheno has much much worse bud formation). I have kept 2 clones and I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt getting some pollen with colloidal silver, maybe an S1 too.
It doesn't seem like it's going to be a big yielder but the vigor and smell alone I think make it worth keeping it.
 
Helmut79

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
MichiganMedGrower said: Some of the highest yielding plants are slow growers in veg and require more time to grow into a big plant.
I would add that highest yield per plant might probably be the one that takes a long time to finish too.


Kingrow1 said: If you want the biggest yields (per year) then clone the fastest and biggest plants and select from them.

So for the purpose of moneymaking (yield mass per year) does it sound correct to leave out the smallest plants in veg stage (before 12/12) and select only the biggest ones? .. or should I keep the medium sized veggers too, because they could turn out to be the biggest yielders (per year) ?
 
evergreengardener

evergreengardener

Well-Known Member
Helmut79 said:
MichiganMedGrower said: Some of the highest yielding plants are slow growers in veg and require more time to grow into a big plant.
I would add that highest yield per plant might probably be the one that takes a long time to finish too.


Kingrow1 said: If you want the biggest yields (per year) then clone the fastest and biggest plants and select from them.

So for the purpose of moneymaking (yield mass per year) does it sound correct to leave out the smallest plants in veg stage (before 12/12) and select only the biggest ones? .. or should I keep the medium sized veggers too, because they could turn out to be the biggest yielders (per year) ?
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if your just wanting to make money go buy proven genetics that have a heavy yield grow and clone them... YOU CANNOT know the yield of a strain because of veg. some plants that grow slower in veg will take longer in flower but will yield more. As i said before you have to FLOWER them to find the heavy yield trait you want. you can either clone them first or flower and revegg the ones you want to keep
 
HydroRed

HydroRed

Well-Known Member
Helmut79 said:
MichiganMedGrower said: Some of the highest yielding plants are slow growers in veg and require more time to grow into a big plant.
I would add that highest yield per plant might probably be the one that takes a long time to finish too.


Kingrow1 said: If you want the biggest yields (per year) then clone the fastest and biggest plants and select from them.

So for the purpose of moneymaking (yield mass per year) does it sound correct to leave out the smallest plants in veg stage (before 12/12) and select only the biggest ones? .. or should I keep the medium sized veggers too, because they could turn out to be the biggest yielders (per year) ?
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There is no exacting method to any of this. I have run strains that are short and squat but produce very heavy & vice versa.
For example, my most recent harvest I had 8 plants ranging in size from 17" - 21" tall and didnt veg any of them but they grew thick colas that were very dense. I pulled just shy of 1.5 zips per plant. No topping, training vegging etc.
 
MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Also every Grow can be different and any cash cropper I have ever met would only run self proven cuttings of a high yielding strain and they dial in for a long time to maximize production.

They don’t even count the first 3 rounds just take notes.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
If you have one strain and some grow slow and some fast in veg then i would question the strain or your skills. Most stable strains grow very similar plants and from them select the best.

Selecting slow growing plants is redundant, after you have done two grows ive completed three and outyielded your slow growers by a few hundred grams.

Biological efficiency is a general rule we can apply, never have i had a small veg plant finish with bigger yeild than a bigger veg plant of the same strain.
 
Helmut79

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
Stink Bug said:
How about some pics please. Many of us would like to see your 100 plant grow.
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I didn't say I was running a 100 plant grow. It was more of a hypothetical question.

Kingrow1 said:
If you have one strain and some grow slow and some fast in veg then i would question the strain or your skills.
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To my understanding new strains aren't very stable, so if I'm running "The Ultimate" by Dutch Passion, it kind of makes sense to me where the variation comes from. I got 100% germination with 150 seeds and they look fine. Last grow was 1.7 grams per watt. You don't have to be the smartest person in the world to have good results. I did some big mistakes, so 2 grams per watt without the mistakes and with the right phenotype sounds easily achievable.
 
Helmut79

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
Kingrow's opinion still stands - no point of taking cuttings from all plants, because slow veggers are not going to be the biggest yielders.
My question - could you explain a bit further how many % of the plants would you leave out of the phenohunting selection in veg stage? Or is it better to think about it a bit the other way - would you divide all plants to 2 categories? - like bigger ones and smaller ones and then leave out the smaller ones?

And as I understand, then all other people besides Kingrow1 see it differently - that slow veggers could be huge yielders.

I got no phenohunting experience to rely on, but my gut feeling agress with Kingrow1. It just somehow makes more sense that killer veggers have bigger probability to turn out to be the best yielders (per year).
 
Stink Bug

Stink Bug

Well-Known Member
On many occasions the strongest vegging plants will perform strong in flower. You can use it as a guide yes. But to say it's an absolute evey time would be misleading.
 
X

XipXipXoom

Active Member
If you have a small number of bought seeds, grow and clone every one. If you have a ton of your own F2s or crosses, sprout as many as you can in your available space and then have several rounds of elimination, removing the runts and stragglers as they grow and crowd each other out. Breeder Steve pops thousands of seeds at once and then cherry picks while they are still very small. You can spot leaf shape, internode spacing and vigor very early on.
 
Odin*

Odin*

Well-Known Member
davillains said:
I have no experience with breeding but during the current run I have come across a really vigorous Blue Dream (HSO) with the best smell between the 3 phenotypes I have running. It is sativa leaning and after flipping the cycle to 12h it has stretched to almost 6.5ft (from around 1.3ft). I've never seen such fast and vigorous growth on a plant before. It's on it's 7th week of flowering right now and I can't say I'm impressed with the bud density and formation but for a sativa I guess it's ok (the other sativa pheno has much much worse bud formation). I have kept 2 clones and I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt getting some pollen with colloidal silver, maybe an S1 too.
It doesn't seem like it's going to be a big yielder but the vigor and smell alone I think make it worth keeping it.
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Nope. I had an amazing Blue Dream cut a few years back (think it was lost in late ‘13). Massive buds, dense, frosty, powerful nose of haze with a hint of blueberry. Every person/club that saw/had it referred to it as “The Real Blue Dream”, every other Cut was bs. I heard that it’s the “Santa Cruz” BD and is still floating around the clubs out there. If you want a BD keeper, that’s the one.
 
Odin*

Odin*

Well-Known Member
Regarding “Yield”, a fast flowering heavy yielder will put a long flowering heavy yielder to shame in “annual yield”.

Consider a single 4x4. A 13 week “3lb’r” will yield at most 4 runs, 12lbs anually. An 8 week “2lb’r” will yield 6.5 runs, 13lbs annually. So, short flowering will yield 1lb per light more than long flowering. 4 lights, 4lbs. 100 lights, 100lbs.

Crazy thing is, I have an 8 week “3lb” Gelato...
 
Helmut79

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
Odin* said:
Regarding “Yield”, a fast flowering heavy yielder will put a long flowering heavy yielder to shame in “annual yield”.

Consider a single 4x4. A 13 week “3lb’r” will yield at most 4 runs, 12lbs anually. An 8 week “2lb’r” will yield 6.5 runs, 13lbs annually. So, short flowering will yield 1lb per light more than long flowering. 4 lights, 4lbs. 100 lights, 100lbs.

Crazy thing is, I have an 8 week “3lb” Gelato...
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I'd really like to know if you were talking about 600w or 1000w in 4x4 tent.

Overall thank you for confirming the importance of growth speed.
 
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