Phenotype hunting - vegging vs flowering

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
If you have a small number of bought seeds, grow and clone every one. If you have a ton of your own F2s or crosses, sprout as many as you can in your available space and then have several rounds of elimination, removing the runts and stragglers as they grow and crowd each other out. Breeder Steve pops thousands of seeds at once and then cherry picks while they are still very small. You can spot leaf shape, internode spacing and vigor very early on.
FUCK YES. NAILED IT!

Contrary what many members said when I started this thread - something along the lines that you could never know how much yield are you going to get by judging a vegging plant. Complete bullshit imo.

My question was about the smallest 10% that look really small compared to other ones.. and then I get criticized about my growing skills.

I'm just about to move the plants to the next room and I'm getting a really good picture about how some plants are so much smaller compared to other ones. I can't help it - even with a lack of experience that I have, I'm getting a really strong feeling that the smallest portion of vegging plants WILL NOT BE THE ONES WHO WOULD GIVE ME THE BEST ANNUAL YIELD.
 

XipXipXoom

Active Member
One thing to be aware of, is that the most vigorous are often males. So don't let vigor alone be the deciding factor, unless you are looking for males, of course.
 

GreenHighlander

Well-Known Member
I dont move anything into flower until they sex themselves. I know you can do it sooner, but I personally feel it is better to wait until they reach sexual maturity.
I have been fooled many times over trying to guess before preflowers. Some met all of the other signs of a female but when the time came bam, it was a dude, and vice versa.
Cheers
 

GreenHighlander

Well-Known Member
You can still go by the usual signs, vigor, smell, etc. But honestly you never know till it is done flowering and even then I have had proper curing times also make a huge difference. Anything sick and or super slow get rid of. Flowering the rest is the only way to know for sure.
 

Odin*

Well-Known Member
FUCK YES. NAILED IT!

Contrary what many members said when I started this thread - something along the lines that you could never know how much yield are you going to get by judging a vegging plant. Complete bullshit imo.
^No.

Big plant, wide node separation after initial stretch, airy larfy leafy lacking ice buds VS small plant, rock hard filled with “oil” icey buds that are stacked like the Swedish bikini team.

You can’t tell shit without flowering them and comparing dried product.
 

XipXipXoom

Active Member
^ you're right, but if you have more seeds than you could flower out, you have better chance of getting what you're looking for if you sprout more than you could grow and then select as you go. You could be throwing away hidden gems and not know it, but your chances of ending up with keeper phenos is better. Selecting is part skill, part guess and part luck. If you only sprout as many seeds as you will flower, you won't end up with as many keepers.
 

Odin*

Well-Known Member
^ you're right, but if you have more seeds than you could flower out, you have better chance of getting what you're looking for if you sprout more than you could grow and then select as you go. You could be throwing away hidden gems and not know it, but your chances of ending up with keeper phenos is better. Selecting is part skill, part guess and part luck. If you only sprout as many seeds as you will flower, you won't end up with as many keepers.
You don’t know what you’re tossing without blooming it. You could be tossing the “best” with all the rest.

Selecting is part skill, part guess and part luck.
No. Selection is skill & subjective choice. “Guess” and “luck” only come into play when you make your choice without having any knowledge of the finished flowers.

Imagine NFL scouts scouring hospital nurseries and offering the “keepers” multimillion dollar contracts based on birth weight and foot size.
 

XipXipXoom

Active Member
What if you have 10,000 seeds? You couldn't possibly grow them all out. You can't spot keepers in seedling stage, but you can remove the plants that exhibit unwanted or less desirable traits early on. Whorled phyllotaxy/triploid for example. If you sprout more seeds than you need, you can remove those, and those show right away. If you only sprout as many as you will flower, you're stuck growing them. It's a numbers game and the more you start with the more choosey you can be and the more likey you will end up with phenos that exhibit traits that you want.
 
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Odin*

Well-Known Member
What if you have 10,000 seeds? You couldn't possibly grow them all out. You can't spot keepers in seedling stage, but you can remove the plants that exhibit unwanted or less desirable traits early on. Whorled phyllotaxy/triploid for example. If you sprout more seeds than you need, you can remove those, and those show right away. If you only sprout as many as you will flower, you're stuck growing them. It's a numbers game and the more you start with the more choosey you can be and the more likey you will end up with phenos that exhibit traits that you want.

We’re not really arguing anything different, go back and check the response chain. OP is thinking that the heaviest yielder can be spotted in veg and took your response as support of that belief.

Yes, if you pop 100, need 100 to fill a room, and toss 20 for whatever reason, you will come up short. That is obvious.

This has “stumbled” away from my point that “you cannot properly identify your keeper without blooming it” and towards “but you can identify nasty crooked little midget dicks”. Which takes me on a tangent...

I’ve told this story of “disdain, to love, then loss” several times here. Several years ago I received a group of clones (~60, representing 6 strains, maybe a couple more, memory). From them I have my Gelato, GSC, GG4, and the mother of my (“The White”x unknown OG)xGG4. There were also Skywalker OG’s in that group, one that was piss poor in veg and did not get moved into bloom and transplanted along with the rest. While tossing the few runts, I decided to take the largest of them (an ~18’ Skywalker) and throw it in a little 3gal to see what it would do. It was a noodle, sad, nothing to clone from this one.

Half way through bloom I realized that a huge error had been made. The other “Skywalker’s” were instead some average OG (piss poor in comparison against my own “old school” OG’s), but that runt had blown up, stretched, branched out hard, and was stacked like a brick house. She was amazing, the only Skywalker in the bunch, and yielded a large amount of the best Skywalker I’ve ever seen (not tooting my horn, just praising that particular cut). I reveg’d, but to my dismay, none of the clones cut from her rooted.

In my last been pop, Scooby Snacks #7 was the smallest female in the bean run (I always number according to size). It is now (first set of clones cut from original), by far, the largest. In fact, it was the tallest plant in the veg room (~30 strains). I’m running them all again to be sure, but the keepers so far are #4 (Face Off OG dom), #6 (Cookie dom), and #7 is a possibility (OG appearance, with purple marbling). Literally, the numbers are “telling”. 3 and 4 were both tall OG’s, but 4 was better, by “light years”. 5 and 6 are both Cookie phenos, but 6 is the clear winner. #1 and 2 were the only males that didn’t show prior to bloom. Had I chose my cuts in veg based on size, I would have tossed my keepers, and possibly held on to a couple males. Not making this up, check the Archive thread. Wrote about all of the phenos in detail several weeks ago.

Same bean pop session included Purple Portal testers from Ocean Grown. Runt females #4 & 5 from the bean run have yielded clones that are indistinguishable from #1-3.

So, toss the ugly ones with wonky growth, sure. We can be somewhat confident that those without “arms & legs” will not make the draft. Selecting keeper(s) prior to sampling the finished product, no.
 

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
We’re not really arguing anything different, go back and check the response chain. OP is thinking that the heaviest yielder can be spotted in veg and took your response as support of that belief.
The main point I was trying to make was written in bold by the way - "I'm getting a really strong feeling that the smallest portion of vegging plants WILL NOT BE THE ONES WHO WOULD GIVE ME THE BEST ANNUAL YIELD."

Also you were talking about how much yield you make per 4x4 room, but you didn't mention your wattage, so it was basically pointless what you were trying to say. I kindly asked if you could clarify it, but you ignored my question. I think you should re-read the response chain yourself :)
 

Odin*

Well-Known Member
The main point I was trying to make was written in bold by the way - "I'm getting a really strong feeling that the smallest portion of vegging plants WILL NOT BE THE ONES WHO WOULD GIVE ME THE BEST ANNUAL YIELD."

Also you were talking about how much yield you make per 4x4 room, but you didn't mention your wattage, so it was basically pointless what you were trying to say. I kindly asked if you could clarify it, but you ignored my question. I think you should re-read the response chain yourself :)
I bloom under 1k lights, not in a tent, warehouses, that is irrelevant. You asked “Is it safe to assume that if one is a super vigorous grower in the veg stage, then it most probably would be a massive yielder too?

Or could it be that the biggest yielder might actually be a plant that was an absolute average in the veg stage?”

That is not a correct assumption, as explained. You will not be able to identify the heaviest yielder without blooming them and, specifically, blooming a full 4x4 tent under your 600w of the same pheno. It would take multiple runs of to identify the phenonthat best utilizes your space.

You can not identify that in veg.
 

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
OP is thinking that the heaviest yielder can be spotted in veg and took your response as support of that belief.
OP knows himself better what he's thinking and what he did. These two sentences which you quoted were written long before. The discussion I was and still am trying to build up has lead me to the conclusion that the slowest vegging plants are worthless business wise, because if the goal is to maximize production, then it wouldn't make much sense for me to keep slow veggers. Vegging takes time. Root growth takes time. I think speed of growth in veg stage is very important for business. Why would anyone want to keep slow veggers and at the same time wish for the biggest annual yield?

Give me few minutes and I'm going to show you exactly what I'm talking about.
 

GreenHighlander

Well-Known Member
OP knows himself better what he's thinking and what he did. These two sentences which you quoted were written long before. The discussion I was and still am trying to build up has lead me to the conclusion that the slowest vegging plants are worthless business wise, because if the goal is to maximize production, then it wouldn't make much sense for me to keep slow veggers. Vegging takes time. Root growth takes time. I think speed of growth in veg stage is very important for business. Why would anyone want to keep slow veggers and at the same time wish for the biggest annual yield?

Give me few minutes and I'm going to show you exactly what I'm talking about.
They would want to keep slow veggers because they have flowered out strains that were slow veggers and realized it shines in flowering.
What part of this very simple growing concept are you not getting?
 

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
Look.

150 seeds germinated.
150 plants vegged.
144 needed for flowering

For the sake of simplicity I'd split all plants into 3 categories - big, medium and small.

6 small plants into elimination (4%).
about 12 plants are medium sized (8%).
and all the rest are quite evenly the big ones (88%).

Big ones look like this.






The medium sized plants you see on the picture didn't get transplanted, because their roots were not developed enough. I will let them veg for another couple of days before transplanting them into a special mix of 50/50 coco and perlite mix so that they could also spread their roots in a big pot like all the rest which are in 100% coco. Then they could be all getting watered with the same rythm. Without perlite the medium sized plants would get overwatered.

https://imgbb.com/



There are 4 of them on the picture, because 2 of them accidentally fell off the stairs - called the small ones...




Now please... stop bullshiting people in this forum by saying something along the lines like "these small plants on the last picture might happen to give me best results and shine like the sun. It is complete bullshit. Period. Do you fucking get it or do you not? LOOK, for fuck sake. And think about the system that is meant to be run for years. Every day. Think about the annual yield. What about the time factor?

I was talking about eliminating the slowest ones. I'm not even sure about cloning the medium sized, but the small ones? If you guys are really so experienced, then you must have some odd type of humour. Seriously wtf are you saying?
 

Helmut79

Well-Known Member
If there are smart people here, would be also nice to hear your opinions about the connection between growth speed in veg stage and flowering time.

Is it safe to assume that most probably those who grow fast in veg also flower faster and those who grow slowest in veg flower for a longer period of time?.. or is it again something that is totally implossible to guess?
 

Odin*

Well-Known Member
Plenty of intelligent people have told you that you cannot identify the heaviest yielder in veg. It is apparent that you have already made up your mind and are only looking for responses that support your incorrect assumption.

If you were talking about clones taken of a single cultivar, then “Yes”, it would be safe to assume that the largest of those would yield greater than those having a little trouble. You could conceivably have some clones that took a little longer to root, subsequently placed in the least optimal part of the room (if there is such), and don’t “perform” on the exact level of it’s/their siblings. But we aren’t talking about a single cultivar, you’re talking about 100 plants from 100 seeds on their initial seed run.

This is a story of 100 plants that have been planted from 100 different seeds of the same strain.

How would you go about to find the best yielder of these 100 plants?
Well, as stated to the point of painful redundancy, you need to bloom each and every single plant. You cannot tell, at all, what that plant will yield without blooming it, nobody fucking knows, the damn thing has never been flowered before. A plant may be slow, for whatever reason, in it’s initial run from seed, but grow vigorously from clone, and ever after. This is what I had implied in my anecdotal tales, but they went over your head.

Now that you’ve been so rude, I’d also like to point out that you will not be successful in your “pheno hunt” due to your piss poor grow skills. Your plants are in sad shape. Not at deaths door, but appear much like the starved Ethiopian children from the charity commercials. Your “keeper” will likely be the plant with the highest stress resistance (giving you the most favorable outcome), but you will miss out on the plant that produces the best yield/flowers in optimal conditions (may, or may not be “one and the same”). It’s funny, because it’s an analogy that I commonly use. “You can’t take a starved Ethiopian kid, feed him a few slices of pizza, pump him full of steroids, and expect gold in the Olympics”.

You want to talk condescendingly to us, but are here asking a fuck ton of stupid questions, and can’t grow to save your ass. Are you retarded, trolling, a “Retarded Troll”. (Not a question)

However, it’s not too late for you. Much like the “runts” in veg, you’re still in your infancy, with a chance to “grow”. Given time, you might just turn around and surprise us all and turn into a decent grower. That, or your “Fail” is so epic that your plants fire you. If we were to implement your “ass-umption”, we’d cull you right now and toss your ass in the trash, but we won’t do that, because we know that there may still be hope.


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