Nutrient Burn or Deficiency?

Hello,

So I'm at about a month n a half in Veg and have 12 plants going. 4 Different strains. I'm using 2 Roleadro 800 W LED's (at half speed), FF Oceans soil and for the last two weeks have started the Fox Trio ( once a week), for now just Grow Big & Big Bloom. I'm going lighter then the Suggested instructions: 3 tsp of Grow Big & 4 tsp of the Big Bloom combined in 2-gallons of water & just yesterday noticed this specking on 2 of my plants lower leaves.


Can anyone tell me what this is and what to do about it? And should I just flush these out and/or skip them and continue to feed the others, or just go even lighter on the nutes and continue to feed them all?

Thanks!

808Budz said:

Hello,

So I'm at about a month n a half in Veg and have 12 plants going. 4 Different strains. I'm using 2 Roleadro 800 W LED's (at half speed), FF Oceans soil and for the last two weeks have started the Fox Trio ( once a week), for now just Grow Big & Big Bloom. I'm going lighter then the Suggested instructions: 3 tsp of Grow Big & 4 tsp of the Big Bloom combined in 2-gallons of water & just yesterday noticed this specking on 2 of my plants lower leaves.

Can anyone tell me what this is and what to do about it? And should I just flush these out and/or skip them and continue to feed the others, or just go even lighter on the nutes and continue to feed them all?

Thanks!

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Neither., It looks like an excess to me.

As long as it doesn't move up the plant = your ok.

If it starts to move. Cut your feed back like 25% and adjust as needed.

You're not using ozone in your grow room are you? Looks a lot like ozone damage and not much like nute burn tho that can manifest in different ways.

Is it just a few lower leaves? Could be some sort of mold or fungus damage too. Any fuzzy white stuff under the leaves?

Hard to tell much with one pic of one leaf.

OldMedUser said:

You're not using ozone in your grow room are you? Looks a lot like ozone damage and not much like nute burn tho that can manifest in different ways.

Is it just a few lower leaves? Could be some sort of mold or fungus damage too. Any fuzzy white stuff under the leaves?

Hard to tell much with one pic of one leaf.

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Like C02? Last week I did try misting a little Pelligrino water on em for added C02

OldMedUser said:

You're not using ozone in your grow room are you? Looks a lot like ozone damage and not much like nute burn tho that can manifest in different ways.

Is it just a few lower leaves? Could be some sort of mold or fungus damage too. Any fuzzy white stuff under the leaves?

Hard to tell much with one pic of one leaf.

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No real pest threat or mold, just a couple white flies every once in a while. I've been using our triple filtered water from my work too

Dr. Who said:

As long as it doesn't move up the plant = your ok.

If it starts to move. Cut your feed back like 25% and adjust as needed.

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Also, my temps fluctuate and sometimes get up to 86, are nutes more likely to cause issues when high heat's present?

808Budz said:

Like C02? Last week I did try misting a little Pelligrino water on em for added C02

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CO2 and ozone are two different things Plants love CO2 but ozone not so much. Ozone is a single atom of oxygen and like peroxide is an oxidizer that burns the stomata on the undersides of leaves and will leave little brown spots like that all over the leaves at high concentrations and can kill the plants.

You're not going to get any boost from spraying with effervescent water and it may just be what has caused those spots so don't spray anything on your plants unless your are fighting bugs or foliar feeding to correct a nute deficiency like low Mg. Plants don't need to be sprayed with anything if they are healthy.

CO2 is absorbed from the undersides of the leaves and all you accomplish by spraying the tops is washing off the coating that the leaves have to prevent dehydration. This leaves them more vulnerable to infections like powdery mildew.

What is triple filtered water? Have you checked the ppm of that water? Do you know what's in it? I use RO water only that is always less than 10ppm for all my plants and for drinking.

OldMedUser said:

CO2 and ozone are two different things Plants love CO2 but ozone not so much. Ozone is a single atom of oxygen and like peroxide is an oxidizer that burns the stomata on the undersides of leaves and will leave little brown spots like that all over the leaves at high concentrations and can kill the plants.

You're not going to get any boost from spraying with effervescent water and it may just be what has caused those spots so don't spray anything on your plants unless your are fighting bugs or foliar feeding to correct a nute deficiency like low Mg. Plants don't need to be sprayed with anything if they are healthy.

CO2 is absorbed from the undersides of the leaves and all you accomplish by spraying the tops is washing off the coating that the leaves have to prevent dehydration. This leaves them more vulnerable to infections like powdery mildew.

What is triple filtered water? Have you checked the ppm of that water? Do you know what's in it? I use RO water only that is always less than 10ppm for all my plants and for drinking.

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I was actually spraying the undersides of the leaves but only did it once so far. Could high heat make them more prone to burn from these nutrients as well? Sometimes my heat fluctuates up to 86 (growing in a garage in Hawaii). I have t tested the pH of that water yet but ok check it

Start checking the ph of your water. It might be an issue due to a ph lockout. I had the same thing.

808Budz said:

I was actually spraying the undersides of the leaves but only did it once so far. Could high heat make them more prone to burn from these nutrients as well? Sometimes my heat fluctuates up to 86 (growing in a garage in Hawaii). I have t tested the pH of that water yet but ok check it

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A lot of figuring out the problem is seeing the whole plant and how many leaves are affected. With deficiencies more than just a couple of leaves will show a problem. Either all the oldest leaves will start showing symptoms like with low Mg or all the new growth will like with low Fe, iron.

The one leaf you show is not enough to diagnose with any degree of certainty.

86 is getting pretty high but shouldn't be a big deal. With high humidity like you probably have on the islands you will be more prone to fungus or mold problems. High RH and high temp makes the chances of that more likely. I think that may be what is happening with that one leaf. If it or a few other affected like it are at the very bottom of the plant/s near the moist soil then I'd say that's the problem and cutting out lower growth will allow better air flow and help prevent the problem from spreading.

Hopefully you have an oscillating fan blowing lots of air back and forth through your plants and a constant supply of fresh air coming in and being exhausted from the grow space. That helps the plants a lot and replenishes the CO2 they need to grow. A sealed grow space full of plants can use up the available CO2 in an hour or so and once it's gone growth comes to a screeching halt.

My wife said they got snow in Hawaii today. You get any? We're just slipping into the deep freeze now with 10 below 0 forecast for the next couple weeks. -25C or so for metric folks. -40F and -40C are equal.

OldMedUser said:

A lot of figuring out the problem is seeing the whole plant and how many leaves are affected. With deficiencies more than just a couple of leaves will show a problem. Either all the oldest leaves will start showing symptoms like with low Mg or all the new growth will like with low Fe, iron.

The one leaf you show is not enough to diagnose with any degree of certainty.

86 is getting pretty high but shouldn't be a big deal. With high humidity like you probably have on the islands you will be more prone to fungus or mold problems. High RH and high temp makes the chances of that more likely. I think that may be what is happening with that one leaf. If it or a few other affected like it are at the very bottom of the plant/s near the moist soil then I'd say that's the problem and cutting out lower growth will allow better air flow and help prevent the problem from spreading.

Hopefully you have an oscillating fan blowing lots of air back and forth through your plants and a constant supply of fresh air coming in and being exhausted from the grow space. That helps the plants a lot and replenishes the CO2 they need to grow. A sealed grow space full of plants can use up the available CO2 in an hour or so and once it's gone growth comes to a screeching halt.

My wife said they got snow in Hawaii today. You get any? We're just slipping into the deep freeze now with 10 below 0 forecast for the next couple weeks. -25C or so for metric folks. -40F and -40C are equal.

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I'll send a pic this evening. I do have a charcoal fan sucking the air out and a fan inside blowing air round but I've been contemplating getting an intake fan Bc all I can do right now is crack our garage and the entrance door to try n relieve some of it, and I think that fan should help a bit

OldMedUser said:

A lot of figuring out the problem is seeing the whole plant and how many leaves are affected. With deficiencies more than just a couple of leaves will show a problem. Either all the oldest leaves will start showing symptoms like with low Mg or all the new growth will like with low Fe, iron.

The one leaf you show is not enough to diagnose with any degree of certainty.

86 is getting pretty high but shouldn't be a big deal. With high humidity like you probably have on the islands you will be more prone to fungus or mold problems. High RH and high temp makes the chances of that more likely. I think that may be what is happening with that one leaf. If it or a few other affected like it are at the very bottom of the plant/s near the moist soil then I'd say that's the problem and cutting out lower growth will allow better air flow and help prevent the problem from spreading.

Hopefully you have an oscillating fan blowing lots of air back and forth through your plants and a constant supply of fresh air coming in and being exhausted from the grow space. That helps the plants a lot and replenishes the CO2 they need to grow. A sealed grow space full of plants can use up the available CO2 in an hour or so and once it's gone growth comes to a screeching halt.

My wife said they got snow in Hawaii today. You get any? We're just slipping into the deep freeze now with 10 below 0 forecast for the next couple weeks. -25C or so for metric folks. -40F and -40C are equal.

Click to expand...

No snow here, temps outside are usually in the 70's or 80's though so I don't know if that intake fan would help much?

808Budz said:

No snow here, temps outside are usually in the 70's or 80's though so I don't know if that intake fan would help much?

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Hard to tell about your setup but as long as you can get the warmer air out of the garage and bring in cooler air from outside you should be able to keep the temps close to the outside air temp. Trying to have your lights off during the hottest time of the day will help too.

I was saying it looks like an excess to me for the blueish color of that leave or is just the lights or something else in the lights or something? Does it looks blueish to the naked eye those leaves?

OldMedUser said:

A lot of figuring out the problem is seeing the whole plant and how many leaves are affected. With deficiencies more than just a couple of leaves will show a problem. Either all the oldest leaves will start showing symptoms like with low Mg or all the new growth will like with low Fe, iron.

The one leaf you show is not enough to diagnose with any degree of certainty.

86 is getting pretty high but shouldn't be a big deal. With high humidity like you probably have on the islands you will be more prone to fungus or mold problems. High RH and high temp makes the chances of that more likely. I think that may be what is happening with that one leaf. If it or a few other affected like it are at the very bottom of the plant/s near the moist soil then I'd say that's the problem and cutting out lower growth will allow better air flow and help prevent the problem from spreading.

Hopefully you have an oscillating fan blowing lots of air back and forth through your plants and a constant supply of fresh air coming in and being exhausted from the grow space. That helps the plants a lot and replenishes the CO2 they need to grow. A sealed grow space full of plants can use up the available CO2 in an hour or so and once it's gone growth comes to a screeching halt.

My wife said they got snow in Hawaii today. You get any? We're just slipping into the deep freeze now with 10 below 0 forecast for the next couple weeks. -25C or so for metric folks. -40F and -40C are equal.

Click to expand...

Here's some pics of the 2 affected plants and the grow

Looks like some minor overfeeding. Could be a bit of a pH issue starting in those 2 pots. The early use of a bloom isn't helping. Never added bloom till week 3 after the flip but, it's kinda early for that to be expressed......What is the pH of your in-going? Of the water before nutrient mixing?
Always found FFOF to be light on Ca/Mg a bit. I always added a good 1/2 - 2/3 cup per bag and mixed well to fix that.
Be sure your letting the media dry out enough between those waterings too.

Dr. Who said:

Looks like some minor overfeeding. Could be a bit of a pH issue starting in those 2 pots. The early use of a bloom isn't helping. Never added bloom till week 3 after the flip but, it's kinda early for that to be expressed......What is the pH of your in-going? Of the water before nutrient mixing?
Always found FFOF to be light on Ca/Mg a bit. I always added a good 1/2 - 2/3 cup per bag and mixed well to fix that.
Be sure your letting the media dry out enough between those waterings too.

Click to expand...

Who ever told you to not add bloom until 3 weeks after flipping? Some bloom is used all through veg to give a complete balance of all the nutrients then Bloom is used more heavily plus bloom boosters at the flip to promote more bud sites and rapid development of them.

I personally use my bloom boosters and a full dose of the Bloom base nutes a week before flipping to "prime the pump" so to say and have great results. The stretch period after flipping is when plants feed heavier than any other time of their life and need a full compliment of all nutes to give the best yields. Every nute maker has has heavy dosing of bloom and boosters listed on their nutrient charts so I doubt they're all wrong.

3 weeks is after the stretch for most strains and an important feeding window is missed if you wait until then to feed bloom.

808Budz said:

Here's some pics of the 2 affected plants and the grow

Click to expand...

This plant seems to be the only one showing any symptoms and they don't look like nute burn at all to me and I've seen lots of it in my own plants over the last 15 years. The spots are laid out just like the stomata under the leaves and I'm pretty sure it's a minor fungal infection from higher moisture near the soil that has gained entry through the stomata. I would remove all affected leaves and carry on.

Other than those few leaves the rest of your garden looks very healthy.

As said above, allow the pots to get very light between waterings but do water before the plants begin to droop tho if one does then hoist the pot to feel the weight to get a better feel for when they need more.

OldMedUser said:

Who ever told you to not add bloom until 3 weeks after flipping? Some bloom is used all through veg to give a complete balance of all the nutrients then Bloom is used more heavily plus bloom boosters at the flip to promote more bud sites and rapid development of them.

I personally use my bloom boosters and a full dose of the Bloom base nutes a week before flipping to "prime the pump" so to say and have great results. The stretch period after flipping is when plants feed heavier than any other time of their life and need a full compliment of all nutes to give the best yields. Every nute maker has has heavy dosing of bloom and boosters listed on their nutrient charts so I doubt they're all wrong.

3 weeks is after the stretch for most strains and an important feeding window is missed if you wait until then to feed bloom.

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Many here use a vast selection of hydro intended nutrient lines.
Even soil intended lines are supplied with feeding charts that are,,well, rather strong and more like pushing the plant then feeding it!
You can push, it's not that hard. The thing is they follow these and many nutrient lines over do it. High P is really NOT needed much.

Yeah a bit more later in bloom is a good thing but, hammering it at the flip with sometimes stupid numbers of P value, simply causes early yellowing due to P tox. This gets worse as bloom goes on and they end up with lower quality and reduced yields!

I've read your posts. I can tell very easily that you have education and experience. Now I can tell that you have your own style of growing that is again different then mine and others on the site with what I would call "our level of expertise". I have no doubt what you do works for you! I'm not going to stoop to demanding "pics or it didn't happen". I already can tell it does for you.

There is it is too, you do what works for you. Others do what works for them. I do what works for me. I can fairly say that delivering any extra P in veg was never an option in my book for this tropical. When I did spend time (plenty of it) on synthetics (and I still did my organic few, as I love the work involved). I discovered real quick that raising the P early was dooming my quality.

I and others here find that the use of high P "bloom" foods can be and are for the most part, counter productive if delivered in the available concentrations sooner then week 3 of bloom. I like to suggest that novice growers mix the veg and bloom at a 50/50 ratio for that week and go full on bloom at week 4. You know damn well the plant will go around 1-2 weeks longer anyway, so your not loosing anything to get the intended result. Other then that early yellowing and burnt end result we see around here all the time.

I suggest that if you want to promote your style of nutrient use.

You supply it,, with amounts, ratio's, application rates and frequency of use. To simply say xy or z is wrong based on what you do...can be not so correct as you may think!

At least you asked! I answered too!

BTW, I like the part about the minor fungal infection! NICE one.....very well could be! I might spray a Horsetail grass tea (natures own strong anti-fungal) on the bottom of those leaves to see. And yes, they will not "show" recovery if that works. They will simply continue to supply the plant with working leaves (diminished but, working)....that would be my choice over removal... - 6-1, 1/2 a 12 to the other, eh?

Thanks for the tip-o-the hat on the being sure it's dry enough to water part!

Want to chat some more on the subject?
Drop me a PM and lets let the threads be threads and not our playground......

See yah round eh? on....