MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

fatman7574 said:

I think he was just trying for the bigger sell. The nozzle type he was trying to sell is at the top of the price range. I think it is just a matter of ethics that convinced him to basicaaly say well yeah the cheaper one would work fine "but" the more expensive one is better as the cheaper one would need a shut off valve. I bet it hurt to write that as it was basically just throwing awaty the chance of a higher priced sell just to not compomise his better ethics. I am all for better business ethics.

My feelings are also that, "why rent a uhaul moving van simply to return a book to the library." The $175 valve with a couple solenoid valve sounds fine at 1/4 theprice. Even the commercial model used solenoid valves so it is doubt fo ul there valves were no beter than the $175 valve. I don' think there nutrients were pressure fed. Just gravity fed with ato imed solenoid valve. The control available just by changing the head and the air pressures should be pretty good as the spray cone varies alot with the different heads and pressures.

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I checked out utube last night and they have some videos of some air atomizing nozzels. you can see the various spray patterns and they have some flow rates numbers (air&water) on thier videos of some bete nozzels. they are interesting as you can see how varing the feed and air can change the spray alot.

tree farmer said:

forty nozzels what is the size of the vertical.

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I wanted to make the best use of the space in the greenhouse, The vertical is based on an 8ft diameter cylinder, 6.5ft high with 163sqft of outer surface area (25ft x 6.5ft).
I`m undecided whether to plant the top of the cylinder (+50sqft) or add an inner cylinder 5ft diameter x 6.5ft high (+102sqft).
I like the idea of using two circular walls with an 18" cavity.. planted on both sides
Access will be an issue whichever way i go. The nozzle manifold is exactly the same so i`ll install the main 8ft cylinder and decide afterwards.
To put it into perspective the greenhouse has 154sqft of floor area.The vertical gives me 163sqft (outer only), 213sqft (outer+ top) or 265sqft (2 walls + cavity) and i still have plenty of path space

Guess I have shown a commitment to an air atomizer system. Just spent $700 (including shipping) on a 6 cfm oil less compressor. It is a militray surplus Air Techiques M5 Denatl compressor so the price was right. Now they are selling on eBay for what I paid for mine with shipping included. No oil issues as with the Jun-Air and other refrigeration compressor type models. It is a big enough unit that it should only run avery little. It is rated at just below 50 dba at 3 feet distance. Also bought a smaller 1 cfm oil less back up for $127 with shipping. Considering where I live though it may take all of the rest of this calendar year for the larger compressor to arrive by motor freight. The 1 cfm shpould be more than adequate for initial trials though so now it is a matter of deciding how many atomizers of waht size to try out. Suggestions would be appreciattted. I am thinking 3 foot cubes with two atomizers each. No soil, no wool or hydroton. Just clones in net pots. Started in one chamber then moved over to the second chamber. The pot size is still up in the air as the atmizer threads I have read were for some reason were seed grows started rock wool. Seemed to cause a lot of problems with over saturation, damp off etc., Many trials with using drip irrigation inconjnction with the atomizers etc. Not really something I want to waste time and efforts with. I'm thinking about a less deep cube for clones using a single atomizer and pots fairly close together, say 4 per square foot in 5" net pots with neoprene inserts. Can't find 5" neoprene inserts but a hole saw works well and neoprene mats are readily available at Walmart cheap. I am hoping 5" will allow a few weeks vegging root growth without producing too large of a root mass to fit through a 5" hole. Seems like the major increase in root growths shown on UK420 seems to be coming after the light change over. I have to read a few more threads but there does not seem to be a whole lot of good info there. The nutrient dat ais based upon the use of bad tap water with a high EC and most info revolves around his difficulties in using rock wool and aer mz sting and drip irrigation all at once with seeds. Hopfully he gave more useful data after he switched over to clones. Pretty hard to get through all the back patting replies to dig out the useful info.

fatman7574 said:

Guess I have shown a commitment to an air atomizer system. Just spent $700 (including shipping) on a 6 cfm oil less compressor. It is a militray surplus Air Techiques M5 Denatl compressor so the price was right. Now they are selling on eBay for what I paid for mine with shipping included. No oil issues as with the Jun-Air and other refrigeration compressor type models. It is a big enough unit that it should only run avery little. It is rated at just below 50 dba at 3 feet distance. Also bought a smaller 1 cfm oil less back up for $127 with shipping. Considering where I live though it may take all of the rest of this calendar year for the larger compressor to arrive by motor freight. The 1 cfm shpould be more than adequate for initial trials though so now it is a matter of deciding how many atomizers of waht size to try out. Suggestions would be appreciattted. I am thinking 3 foot cubes with two atomizers each. No soil, no wool or hydroton. Just clones in net pots. Started in one chamber then moved over to the second chamber. The pot size is still up in the air as the atmizer threads I have read were for some reason were seed grows started rock wool. Seemed to cause a lot of problems with over saturation, damp off etc., Many trials with using drip irrigation inconjnction with the atomizers etc. Not really something I want to waste time and efforts with. I'm thinking about a less deep cube for clones using a single atomizer and pots fairly close together, say 4 per square foot in 5" net pots with neoprene inserts. Can't find 5" neoprene inserts but a hole saw works well and neoprene mats are readily available at Walmart cheap. I am hoping 5" will allow a few weeks vegging root growth without producing too large of a root mass to fit through a 5" hole. Seems like the major increase in root growths shown on UK420 seems to be coming after the light change over. I have to read a few more threads but there does not seem to be a whole lot of good info there. The nutrient dat ais based upon the use of bad tap water with a high EC and most info revolves around his difficulties in using rock wool and aer mz sting and drip irrigation all at once with seeds. Hopfully he gave more useful data after he switched over to clones. Pretty hard to get through all the back patting replies to dig out the useful info.

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Well i agree it is hard to go thru all the threads to get just a few bits of info. sound like you got a good deal on the compressor. i was thinking of looking in the surplus world when i get ready to go ahead with an atomizer project. i guess youll probably beat me to it though it sounds like. from my reading and observations of sub 50 micron roots it seems to me (not completely scientific just a hunch) that alot of the problems the people were having with thier atomizers stems from the droplets being to small. I have read some info from tests on aero roots and if the droplets are to fine then the plant spends an inordinate amount of time growing multitudes of tiny root fibers which in the end dont increase the topside. at least in some tests this was the case.
Alot of people have tried the ultrasonic foggers and alot of the info from those threads also seems to confirm that to small of droplets cant support a large plant. they work for propagation but have a hard time supporting growth.
Its nice to see a beatiful bundal of white fuzzy roots but if it doesnt increase the yield whats the point.
All the hand watering and drip in conjuction with the atomizers should indicate something should of been done differently.

Why i said all that is when you go ahead with your selection of nozzels i would suggest that you find some that are capable of producing a wide varity of droplet sizes. hence the need to be able to accuratly control the air and fluid flows.

i guess the footprint of the atomizer contanier is somewhat dependent on the best footprint size for your lighting since your into sog. then find a nozzel that can fill that space in 2-3 seconds. you might be able to use just one nozzel. some of the videos ive seen on these nozzels looks like they can fill an area pretty quick.

Maybe its best to get one nozzel and stick it into some kind of container and see how it performs before even deceiding on the container size. might save alot of rework.

Are you saying the dental air compressors dont use any oil or do they just clean the oil out of the air.

Where do you find neoprene mats at walmart?

3 foot cubes seem like a good size if thats what your light will cover well. i defineatly think your right with not needing it as deep for smaller stages.

Ive tried the recommended ec levels for aero in my new HP aero system and they dont work. at least not with GH nutes. im having to run higher ec levels and lower PH to get things looking normal. still tweaking to find out what works. be nice if i had the individual ion testers or could do tissue samples. maybe in another life.

Finally figured out what was wrong with my selenoid. i kept thinking my nozzels were getting plugged because there wasnt alot of mist coming out. well my selenoid wasnt seated tight into the valve and was bleeding by which had me tightening the flow ristricter down to much that the nozzels werent firing properly. I was getting ready to buy a $250 Stainless steel selenoid valve but thought id call the company that makes the one i have and chew some ass. well the guy told me what to check and sure as hell he was right. fixed it and it seems like a completly different machine. the nozzels now totally engulf the chambers with a 2 sec pulse that will linger. what a relief as i thought "this sucks that my nozzels plugged after 2 weeks." im sure this is going to help the topside now also. its definatly a challenge this first go to figure everything out. i hope to get to the atomizer project this winter if all goes well.

Nice!

I too have committed credit today towards;

solenoid valve, digital recycle timer, and aquarium chiller.
I plan on picking up any old compressor/motor assembly from Harbor Freight...
and (finally) a price on two Delavan SN models, which are good enough.
All in all probably just under 1k...

This winter is definitely looking, productive.

The oil less compressors actually have no oil lubrication. Their bearings are sealed bearings usually synthetic solid sealed bearings or sealed ball bearing , and they use what some would call sacrificial rings rather than the old standard high carbon rand cast iron rings. Many are just epoxy based rings or Teflon rings. Usually three compression rings and two guide rings. Rebuilds are simple and cheap as the head and cylinder assembly pulls off like an air cooled engines jugs (cylinders) on an old air cooled Volkswagen or motor cycle.

The concern I have is whether a single atomizer is going to over water the near side and underwater the opposite side of the chamber.

I use multiples of 250 watt lights so that there would be two lights over each cube (a 6500K halide and a HPS), plus two 93 watt 6500K long tube CFC side lights. All water cooled. So basically they are getting 55.55 watts/sq ft HID and another 20.66 supplemental lighting, or 76 watts/sq ft mixed lighting. The typical light height is with bulbs center 8" over the plants canopy. I have some rooms with 4 foot widths with two 250 side by side so as to only cover 4 sq ft each without side lighting but even though it is all HID they perform worse than the lower HID wattage set up with the CFC side lights. Over all their outputs have been about equal comparing total kWh used in relation to yields. The buds with the increased broader spectrum lighting seem to be a bit tighter and more potent. Mainly I prefer the easier maintenance of the narrower setup and the smaller foot print. I really like the stronger stems and greater resistance to insects and such with the increased blue spectrum lighting. I also think the plants have increaesd vigor make it possible for them to recover from mishaps quicker.

Treeth said:

Nice!

I too have committed credit today towards;

solenoid valve, digital recycle timer, and aquarium chiller.
I plan on picking up any old compressor/motor assembly from Harbor Freight...
and (finally) a price on two Delavan SN models, which are good enough.
All in all probably just under 1k...

This winter is definitely looking, productive.

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Did you get the price of two SN valves down to below $175 each. He has not returned an email to me since the first where he gave a $175 estimate.

I have done real well on prices, but shipping is killing me. Shipping is running about 2 to 10 times the purchase costs. I got the back up compressors shipping by USPS so they, for the same weight are shipping for about half the cost of the motor freighted compressor. The back ups are Bell and Gosset 1/3 hp air less. I think finding new rings for them will be difficult however as Bell and Gossett sold their compressor devision years ago. However, government agencies still have a few thousand in use so parts must be somewhere.

Treeth said:

Nice!

I too have committed credit today towards;

solenoid valve, digital recycle timer, and aquarium chiller.
I plan on picking up any old compressor/motor assembly from Harbor Freight...
and (finally) a price on two Delavan SN models, which are good enough.
All in all probably just under 1k...

This winter is definitely looking, productive.

Click to expand...

keep us updated. that way when i start i can learn from what worked for you.

fatman7574 said:

The oil less compressors actually have no oil lubrication. Their bearings are sealed bearings usually synthetic solid sealed bearings or sealed ball bearing , and they use what some would call sacrificial rings rather than the old standard high carbon rand cast iron rings. Many are just epoxy based rings or Teflon rings. Usually three compression rings and two guide rings. Rebuilds are simple and cheap as the head and cylinder assembly pulls off like an air cooled engines jugs (cylinders) on an old air cooled Volkswagen or motor cycle.

The concern I have is whether a single atomizer is going to over water the near side and underwater the opposite side of the chamber.

I use multiples of 250 watt lights so that there would be two lights over each cube (a 6500K halide and a HPS), plus two 93 watt 6500K long tube CFC side lights. All water cooled. So basically they are getting 55.55 watts/sq ft HID and another 20.66 supplemental lighting, or 76 watts/sq ft mixed lighting. The typical light height is with bulbs center 8" over the plants canopy. I have some rooms with 4 foot widths with two 250 side by side so as to only cover 4 sq ft each without side lighting but even though it is all HID they perform worse than the lower HID wattage set up with the CFC side lights. Over all their outputs have been about equal comparing total kWh used in relation to yields. The buds with the increased broader spectrum lighting seem to be a bit tighter and more potent. Mainly I prefer the easier maintenance of the narrower setup and the smaller foot print. I really like the stronger stems and greater resistance to insects and such with the increased blue spectrum lighting. I also think the plants have increaesd vigor make it possible for them to recover from mishaps quicker.

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yes that certainly is a valid concern. i think the positioning of the nozzel in the chamber will be something youll have to toy around with. i heard that Atomix had a see thru demo model that showed how the spray swirled thru the chamber. maybe just use some plexiglass on a test chamber with the lights out and a light to see how the mist is moving thru the container. i know that with the lights out and a flashlight is the only way i can really see the mist.especially under an HPS. (good tip from atomizer)
Im starting to think that i can rework an air compressor if they are similiar to motorcycle engines which i worked on as a kid.
well i also do know that more light doesnt always equate to more yield . i generally only ran 50 watts /sqft in my tree rooms.but trees are a completly different world than sog. having said that if i can id bump it to 70-75 wpsf since my goal is always to get as much as i can off the few i have even if it costs a little more juice.

where do you find neoprene at in walmart stores. i hate going to hydro store to get it.

tree farmer said:

yes that certainly is a valid concern. i think the positioning of the nozzel in the chamber will be something youll have to toy around with. i heard that Atomix had a see thru demo model that showed how the spray swirled thru the chamber. maybe just use some plexiglass on a test chamber with the lights out and a light to see how the mist is moving thru the container. i know that with the lights out and a flashlight is the only way i can really see the mist.especially under an HPS. (good tip from atomizer)
Im starting to think that i can rework an air compressor if they are similiar to motorcycle engines which i worked on as a kid.
well i also do know that more light doesnt always equate to more yield . i generally only ran 50 watts /sqft in my tree rooms.but trees are a completly different world than sog. having said that if i can id bump it to 70-75 wpsf since my goal is always to get as much as i can off the few i have even if it costs a little more juice.

where do you find neoprene at in walmart stores. i hate going to hydro store to get it.

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They have childrens small childrens play mats that interlock with each other to form larger mats. They are however in bright colors such as red, blue, green, yellow etc.

They look like these. http://www.greatmats.com/products/foamspecial.php They have them in several price ranges.

What actually work really well to cut them is the diamond dust hole saws used to cut holes in glass or tial, but unless you have aquarium you likely do not own a diamond hole saw. Regular holes work OK but the duller ones work better as they seem to cut better without grabbing at the foam. I have also seen people cut 3 or 4 layers at a time using a piece of thin steel tubing (electrical conduit) and a vice to press the tubing through the foam.

Or go to a military surplus store and by a sleepimg mat. They are OD green but work really well, and up here they are cheap when in stock. They are like 36" by 72" for $10.

fatman7574 said:

They have childrens small childrens play mats that interlock with each other to form larger mats. They are however in bright colors such as red, blue, green, yellow etc.

They look like these. http://www.greatmats.com/products/foamspecial.php They have them in several price ranges.

What actually work really well to cut them is the diamond dust hole saws used to cut holes in glass or tial, but unless you have aquarium you likely do not own a diamond hole saw. Regular holes work OK but the duller ones work better as they seem to cut better without grabbing at the foam. I have also seen people cut 3 or 4 layers at a time using a piece of thin steel tubing (electrical conduit) and a vice to press the tubing through the foam.

Or go to a military surplus store and by a sleepimg mat. They are OD green but work really well, and up here they are cheap when in stock. They are like 36" by 72" for $10.

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thanks. ill check it out.

dammit stephen is out of office

Looking forward to watching the air assisted diy setups progress.
Even though the concept is well proven with the Atomix, it has to be said that you guys deserve a lot of credit for heading down a road less travelled. 2010 could be a good year for aeroponics

You guys put me in the mood to experiment so today i dug out an old aero project i was working on a while back..just for the craic.
Its pretty different as theres no pump or nozzles involved so clogging is very unlikely
I`m not sure how i`ll impliment it into a system but i`ll worry about that later.
The main component is a rotary disc atomizer that spins at 10-13,000rpm.
The disc has hundreds of tiny teeth around the perimeter which break up the water
into droplets. The hard part is getting it spin fast enough without generating too much noise. Nothing to lose by trying plus it keeps me off the streets

Stephen always seems to be out of office as I always get a email saying out of office from him. Canned email replies, how personal.

FedEx delivered my compressor today. The seller took it to a freight company who said it weighed 148 pounds not 160, so it was under the 150 pound Fedex parcel weight maximum. It will take a little midification to do away with the dhyrdrator but that should be simple. Starnge the way the mediacl dental compressor dehydrators are set up. Mine was desihned to charge the system to 60 psi, then flash all the pressure through the compressor heads the air cooling tube and the dehydrator column. That means the most expensive part of the air to produce is wasted through the system just to remove water before it can get to any equipment. while tah might be nice with denatl handoieces, and tattoo guns I think I can settle quite easily on draining the tank occasionally as my solenoids nor atomizers will not care about moist air. I guess I could always get a free tattoo for the dehydrator part of the set up as it is definitely of higher qality and capaciy than what they generally are offered with their compresssors.

fatman7574 said:

Stephen always seems to be out of office as I always get a email saying out of office from him. Canned email replies, how personal.

FedEx delivered my compressor today. The seller took it to a freight company who said it weighed 148 pounds not 160, so it was under the 150 pound Fedex parcel weight maximum. It will take a little midification to do away with the dhyrdrator but that should be simple. Starnge the way the mediacl dental compressor dehydrators are set up. Mine was desihned to charge the system to 60 psi, then flash all the pressure through the compressor heads the air cooling tube and the dehydrator column. That means the most expensive part of the air to produce is wasted through the system just to remove water before it can get to any equipment. while tah might be nice with denatl handoieces, and tattoo guns I think I can settle quite easily on draining the tank occasionally as my solenoids nor atomizers will not care about moist air. I guess I could always get a free tattoo for the dehydrator part of the set up as it is definitely of higher qality and capaciy than what they generally are offered with their compresssors.

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so your saying the dental air comp. are overkill for air atomizing purposes because they waste energy just removing the water from the air. what makes these dental air compressors quite. is it the compressor(i.e not piston type) or is there some sort of silenicing setup.

Atomizer said:

Looking forward to watching the air assisted diy setups progress.
Even though the concept is well proven with the Atomix, it has to be said that you guys deserve a lot of credit for heading down a road less travelled. 2010 could be a good year for aeroponics

You guys put me in the mood to experiment so today i dug out an old aero project i was working on a while back..just for the craic.
Its pretty different as theres no pump or nozzles involved so clogging is very unlikely
I`m not sure how i`ll impliment it into a system but i`ll worry about that later.
The main component is a rotary disc atomizer that spins at 10-13,000rpm.
The disc has hundreds of tiny teeth around the perimeter which break up the water
into droplets. The hard part is getting it spin fast enough without generating too much noise. Nothing to lose by trying plus it keeps me off the streets

Click to expand...

doesnt some small hydro shop aero setups use some sort of spinning mechanism to produce droplets. what was the device used for before you got your hands on it?

I found a nylon pressure relief valve for 30 bucks rated to 150 psi. thought it was a good deal so i bought one. hooked it up and the thing keep bleeding thru no matter what i set it on. took a look at the directions and in very very tiny print it said "valve not designed to stop flow completly some bypas may occur". you think these a. holes would put that in their description of the item so a person would know before he ordered it. Oh i guess then maybe noone would order any. well another item to go in with the rest of the 100s of things not being used.

dont try that in your kitchen

I got my solenoid and solid state time delay switch today...

Should be easy, 120 v AC in. I feel like I should find the particular connectors so that that current stays safe. They look like, 12 or 14 gauge Male electrical connectors.

Tree Farmer! Fuck those worthless, unproductive assets!

Treeth said:

I got my solenoid and solid state time delay switch today...

Should be easy, 120 v AC in. I feel like I should find the particular connectors so that that current stays safe. They look like, 12 or 14 gauge Male electrical connectors.

Tree Farmer! Fuck those assets!

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Probably a DIN socket... Does it look like the connectors on the back of my solenoids? If so there are lots of nice options for hooking it up...

Check out:
http://www.canfieldconnector.com/product-category/din-connector-products.htm

random question that you guys would know...

what is the least amount of support you can put under a plant in an aero system?

so, instead of the basket and the little round rocks... if you just had like a rubber collar, like you uses for clones... and maybe just 2 wires or "beams" that were about 2 inches below that... do you think the plant could straddle a beam, and let the rest of its roots dangle, and be healthy?

Thanks in advance!

If you could keep it in place until it grew enough roots to hold it up right it should work. Your talking something like a 1/2" diameter hole with the clone stem stuck through the hole down to a cross bar. If your talking a bigger hole on top you will need to secure it in place at the top also. Net baskets are just simple and cheap. With clone cuttings they are sufficient without hydroton or rock wool etc. by using a neoprene or plastic slit lid on top of the net pot to hold them vertical and they can only slip down in the pot as far as a branch at most.