Multichip LED, Remote Phosphor - Guess who it is.

Bumping Spheda

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Oh, PF, I think we posted at the same time, didn't see you there.

You're right, that should help, but you'll still get hotspots, imo, especially if you try to increase the wattage w/o increasing the surface area of the RP lens. With a diamond lens you'd be able to create something like a 40mm RP lens that could handle 100W of Blue light from 10cm away and have the phosphor still be as efficient as if there were only 15W on it. Whether or not this has an application, I'd doubt it. They're using diamond lenses for laser cutting and things of that nature, just to give you an idea of the thermal capabilities.


SDS - Ik! The applications seem endless. At the very least it could be used to make blister packs to ship oddly shaped items safely, but once you build the table I can see you using it for things you never even imagined!
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Don't think this effects RP, BUT,
FYI CREE is introducing its' new 'single-die' LED said to have high lumen output at .... wait for it.... 85*s C! Oh snap!

Could this be the end of needing active cooling? www.cree.com
​

 
heckler73

heckler73

Well-Known Member
PetFlora said:
Don't think this effects RP, BUT,
FYI CREE is introducing its' new 'single-die' LED said to have high lumen output at .... wait for it.... 85*s C! Oh snap!
​
Click to expand...

​

Are you referring to the MK-R LED (with 200 Lm/W)?
Although, it's interesting to note in the specs it says "up to 1769 lm @ 15W, 85°C"
Not exactly 200 lm/W there... hmmm
MK_r LED spec.PNG
But look at the performance WITH cooling! Not bad...
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
I've to say it ....
Can't get a hold of myshelf ....
Cree leds are superb .....
For torchlights ,street lights ,automotive lights ,high-bay industrial lights ,etc ...
But regarding growing plants ?
Well ....For those that they do not need any Cool / Neutral whites and rely only on Warm whites to get ,the most out of the overall spectrum .....
There are way better leds (Warm Whites ) .....Way-way better warm whites than Crees ...
Personally I prefer the red peak of my warm whites to be somewhere between 620~640 nm ....
And not at 580-610 nm range ,where most of Warm whites have their peak emission ...
Like Crees ...

What Plants need is a warm white led ,with the least possible blue emission and the deepest red peak emission ....
Having a warm white led with that specs ,all one has to do is to "enhance " the really deep reds (640-680 nm ) ....

Lately I trust than a nice spectrum is a "full spectrum " ....
But starting at low powers in blue region and as moving towards red region power is increasing almost linearly ...
At reds (600-680 nm ) ,specially at low overall fluxes ,one can "overdo" with ..Not way much ,but a bit more red ,won't hurt ...
On the contrary ....
All these yield quantity wise ....

If someone aims for supreme quality,he/she should aim for higher blue light ,along with some UVa /UVb if possible ...
But the yields would not be ,anything close to "good " ..
Maybe even less than " average "...

Same story as HPS vs MH , back then ,when we 've been growing into caves.....

Other good example of "special " warm white are the Intematix remote phosphors ....
Almost same spectral emission ,with the best * warm white leds available ,today ....

*best for growing plants .....==> LCW CQ7P.CC
 
heckler73

heckler73

Well-Known Member
stardustsailor said:
Personally I prefer the red peak of my warm whites to be somewhere between 620~640 nm ....
And not at 580-610 nm range ,where most of Warm whites have their peak emission ...
Like Crees ...

Other good example of "special " warm white are the Intematix remote phosphors ....
Almost same spectral emission ,with the best * warm white leds available ,today ....

*best for growing plants .....==> LCW CQ7P.CC
Click to expand...
I'm glad you chimed in; I've been wanting to ask you about that...
Capture2.PNG
What do you think all of that 510-530nm is doing? I remember on your other thread (the Astir Panel), you were getting into a debate about that, but I don't recall any definitive conclusions coming out.
I have to question if there isn't some detrimental effect from that, such as stretching or interruption in Chl A/B production. Yet, the studies I've read (only a few, sorry) indicate there could be a positive role for that range.
And when I look at details (510 vs 530nm & varied PPFD) some paradoxical effects are the result.
It just seems--to me--like something that shouldn't be glossed over so quickly.
 
Bumping Spheda

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
If you didn't mention it SDS, I was gonna, I want more Red outta that one. Yet Cree actually has a much nicer Warm White LED, I was just running through their models and was like, "Hay, that looks pretty awesome," but I forget the exact model number. They do make a Warm White that looks excellent for growing, however.

I agree, heckler. Even though I'm using a phosphor lens with a very similar spectral distribution as the one you posted, the abundant amount of Green is sort of worrisome. This is why SDS intelligently uses more 660nm's. His "Sunset" panel is absolutely to die for. Makes me wish I had gone with more 660nm's on my own build, tbh. Or I could have gone with more 440nm chips because that creates a more Pinkish light as far as I can tell by looking at the Intematix XT pdf.

Ideally, I think a Pink LED might actually win my heart over if someone made the "right" one. Primary peak at 640nm, secondary at 440-450nm, high efficiency, and then supplement those with 660nm's. Forget Green, less Yellow/Orange who needs them, just the stuff that 100% matters, no nonsense. If I could trade the Green output on my RP lens for more Blue and Red I'd do it instantly. I'm worried most about stretch, but having ~90W of intra-canopy supplemental lights is a nice security blanket for me, at least in a theoretical sense. Only the pictures will tell.
 
heckler73

heckler73

Well-Known Member
Bumping Spheda said:
I agree, heckler. Even though I'm using a phosphor lens with a very similar spectral distribution as the one you posted, the abundant amount of Green is sort of worrisome. This is why SDS intelligently uses more 660nm's. His "Sunset" panel is absolutely to die for. Makes me wish I had gone with more 660nm's on my own build, tbh. Or I could have gone with more 440nm chips because that creates a more Pinkish light as far as I can tell by looking at the Intematix XT pdf.

...I'm worried most about stretch, but having ~90W of intra-canopy supplemental lights is a nice security blanket for me, at least in a theoretical sense. Only the pictures will tell.
Click to expand...
That's sort of what I was wondering; does he use the 660s consciously for the purpose of "bringing down" the 510-30nm flux. But then the question is, what percentage of green is being used and what is ideal?
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Listen guys ..
I 'll try to explain a bit better , my own "theory " about "full spectrum " light ....

-Plants evolved under Natural Sunlight .
That fact ,by itshelf,made plants to evolve ...to adapt to different light " qualities " ....
(and quantities,directions ,Durations...But now is "quality" under question ....) ...

-Natural sunlight ,'contains' most of it's power at "green " range ...( 500-599 nm ) .
So ,main photon energy supply of plants ,comes from that region ....
But ......

In order ,to get max PS yields from Greens :

-Overall light flux (Power ) has to be rather high ,close to that of natural sunlight ( => 400 W / m^2 )..
At lower powers ,plants prefer the RED & blue bands ,to harvest most of their photons ....

-There's a " critical balance " between blue/reds vs greens ,
that has to be maintained , in order ,for the green light to have .."positive effects " ....
I.e. If Blue/red bands get really low at power and green band power increases...
Plants get the "message " ,that other plants' canopies are "covering " / obscuring their own leaf canopy ....
Excess Shade Avoidance Syndrome effects ,are shown then ...
(Internodal streching ,leaf petioles streching ,leaves get thinner ,ect ) ..
Not so good ...Too much Neutral Whites/Cool Whites (at low powers specially ) ,show such effects ...

...


In fact ...

There is not such a band ,that can be considered healthy -unhealthy or detrimental-necessary ...

All bands can have negative impacts on plants if used alone or in high/low (unbalanced ) quantities in between them relations ...& analogies .......

-Blue can really slow down PS and has an severe oxidising( destructive..) effect on plant cells ..
-Green also can slow down PS and has severe Shade Avoidance Syndrome effects on plants ..
-Yellow/Amber can be destructive in vegging plants ...
-Red can show abnormal growth(streching/branching ) ,mess up circadian cycle/rythms ,induce severe photoinhibition/photorespiration ,
overload PS systems ,ect ...
-As for UV or NIR ,also can have really severe effects ....(Specially the UV light ..)

If all of them used in balance (always taking into consideration the overall flux -light power ) ,then plants thrive under them ...

Plants have evolved to use as efficiently the available light ,as possible ...
"Giving " them the "right " one ,one can "force/guide" plants to show more "pronounced " certain of their aspects ....
I.e ...Blue light makes them compact and tasty ,when in balance with rest of light ,with least possible "side-effects " ... ...
Red & yellow/amber light will 'support' a heavy flowering or fruiting ...
Especially when "streching" ability of plants has 'ceased' ....

...
As for my "summer burning Sun " spectrum ....
I simply tried to kinda "mimic " the semi-tropical / tropical summer sunlight quality ....
(But without the tropical UV rays .... ;-) ...He-he-he-he .....Greenhouse's "bulk" effect ... )
...
All bands are there ..(except UV..)
Blue at really low powers ( ~ 4 % ),
green/yellows at ~ 23 % ,
reds at ~70 % ,
NIR/FR at ~ 3 % .....

For sure not a so good / " ideal " "vegging " light ...
(In fact ,kinda far from "ideal " veggin' light ...)

It can veg ,but -human- "support " is needed ( training of plants ) ,
in order to minimise possible streching issues ...

Also this kind of light can not be used at high powers for vegging ...
It will really "scorch " / "burn" young plants ..
Either dimming or greater distance between plants & led fixture, is needed ....

But when it comes to flowering ( quantity -wise ) ....
.....
Soon ,we will all witness, what a single box/panel of that spectrum , can actually ' do '..
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Bumping Spheda ,I was not aware of such WW led by Cree ..
If you'll come across it ,again,please post some info about it ....
( type /specs / etc .. )
 
heckler73

heckler73

Well-Known Member
stardustsailor said:
-Overall light flux (Power ) has to be rather high ,close to that of natural sunlight ( => 400 W / m^2 )..
At lower powers ,plants prefer the RED & blue bands ,to harvest most of their photons ....

-There's a " critical balance " between blue/reds vs greens ,
that has to be maintained , in order ,for the green light to have .."positive effects " ....
I.e. If Blue/red bands get really low at power and green band power increases...
Plants get the "message " ,that other plants' canopies are "covering " / obscuring their own leaf canopy ....
Excess Shade Avoidance Syndrome effects ,are shown then ...
(Internodal streching ,leaf petioles streching ,leaves get thinner ,ect ) ..
Not so good ...Too much Neutral Whites/Cool Whites (at low powers specially ) ,show such effects ...
...
-Blue can really slow down PS and has an severe oxidising( destructive..) effect on plant cells ..
-Green also can slow down PS and has severe Shade Avoidance Syndrome effects on plants ..
-Yellow/Amber can be destructive in vegging plants ...
-Red can show abnormal growth(streching/branching ) ,mess up circadian cycle/rythms ,induce severe photoinhibition/photorespiration ,
overload PS systems ,ect ...
-As for UV or NIR ,also can have really severe effects ....(Specially the UV light ..)

I.e ...Blue light makes them compact and tasty ,when in balance ...
Red & yellow/amber light will 'support' a heavy flowering ...
...
All bands are there ..(except UV..)
Blue at really low powers ( ~ 4 % ),
green/yellows at ~ 23 % ,
reds at ~70 % ,
NIR/FR at ~ 3 % .....

But when it comes to flowering ( quantity -wise ) ....
.....
Soon ,we will all witness, what a single box/panel of that spectrum , can actually ' do '..
Click to expand...
That's the distilled wisdom I was looking for. Thanks! (and sorry for derailing the thread).
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
SDS, I think you finally drove it home for me as to my using home spec lighting. They intentionally avoid > 600, as it is too warm for indoor lighting. I will supplement with my ufo during flower (cause I own it), and it has >80% reds.


Since you have multi-panels why not make a ~ 640- ~730 octopus, or 2 small multi-diode rails (one on each side) to add during flower?
 
Scotch089

Scotch089

Well-Known Member
stardustsailor said:
Blue at really low powers ( ~ 4 % ),
green/yellows at ~ 23 % ,
reds at ~70 % ,
NIR/FR at ~ 3 % .....

For sure not a so good / " ideal " "vegging " light ..
Click to expand...
So what would you consider enough blue for a killer veg light, without stunting our favorites?
 
Bumping Spheda

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
stardustsailor said:
Bumping Spheda ,I was not aware of such WW led by Cree ..
If you'll come across it ,again,please post some info about it ....
( type /specs / etc .. )
Click to expand...
Pretty sure I was looking at this one:
http://www.cree.com/led-components-and-modules/products/xlamp/discrete-nondirectional/xlamp-xpe-hew

Primary peak at ~610nm, and it's a relatively broad peak with very nice coverage of 640nm and quite a bit of 660nm. As a standalone Warm White it's really not bad, imo, but in a fixture like your Sunburn panel with Red supplements it could be very nice.
 
S

SnotBoogie

Well-Known Member
Pretty sure XT-E have a very similar distribution, but are binned at 85C

edit: while they beat it on light output (even at 85c), Spheda is absolutely right, the curve down in to Far red is much more abrupt.
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Chronikool said:
You wouldnt be using actual blue leds for your veg light right?
Click to expand...
Nope ...Better invest in numbers for distirbuting blue ....
Meaning ,instead of i.e 1 x blue led ,I would use 2 x CW + 2 x NW ....Something like that...
(More expensive ,but way better than using just 1 -powerful- blue led ... )
 
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