LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

Hey guys, I just noticed where some of you were talking about the UVL Red Sun/Red Life spectrum on page 128ish... so I figured that I would post the emails I exchanged with them back on 9/9/11 for your perusal:

[FONT=&quot]Sorry for the late response, we've been shorthanded and extremely busy. So not to make the graphs more confusing then they are is to simply show where the light peaks are. The lamps are all measured differently on the x-axis chart and should not be used to show light intensity. The Red Sun lamp is peaking at 633nm which is very specific in the red spectral peak. Below is my phone # if you would like to call me.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Regards,
Jeff Saghy
UV Lighting Co.
[email protected][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](800) 435-7779 x209[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]----- Original Message ----- [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]From:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [email protected] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sent:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Friday, September 09, 2011 2:33 PM[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Subject:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] T5 V-HO bulbs | Spectrum graphs on website[/FONT]

Hello,

I am researching the optimum combination of T5 bulbs for my system. It is wonderful that you have spectrum graphs for each of your T5 bulbs. However, I have found that the information provided is VERY confusing.

FIrst of all, what is the unit of measurement of the x-axis in the graphs anyways? It is reported as a numerical value, with no unit of measurement...

Also, suddenly in the graph for the Red Sun bulb, it is given in percentages???

Furthermore, I have found that the x-axis in each of the graphs is scaled differently in magnitude.

For example, the first five T5 bulbs on the site share the same x-axis measure (numerical), but the magnitude ranges greatly!

The 75.25, 454 and Indigo Sun bulbs x-axis range from zero to 5.00E-05 (0.00005)
The Actinic White and Aquasun bulbs x-axis range from zero to 1.00E+00 (1)
The Super Actinic x-axis ranges from zero all the way up to 2.5E+00 (2.5)

Is this correct? If so, it suggests that none of the light peaks from the 75.25, 454, and Indigo Sun bulbs have even the slightest fraction of the light intensity??? (or whatever that missing unit of measurement is) that the other bulbs have in their light peaks.

And the Red Sun bulb… well… I have no idea how to make any direct comparison in magnitude with that graph, given the x-axis is in a completely different measurement altogether (percentages), and the unit of measurement is still missing…
Any assistance that you could provide in this matter would be greatly appreciated!

I have a bunch of old T12 fixtyres, does anybody think it would be worth using them or would I be better starting over with T5 fixtures for more power?

Well everything seems to be going good i think with my first grow. This is what it looks like after 15 days of flower. I took the pics as soon as the lights went out, i'll try to get some better shots in another week or so. Also I trimmed up 3 or 4 branches of "new" growth that was buried in the middle of the plant. It had some new branches starting off the stem at the bottom that looked really sad/weak. I was wondering if i should do any more trimming. I don't plan on doing any kind of supercropping or anything major like that my first go and not knowing the exact genetics. (It was a seed given to me by a friend, i know its good but it's over a year old and i forgot what he called it, i think it was a sharks breath or tooth, something like that, could be wrong though.

Also i think its some kind of indica dom because of how bushy it is. Is that an accurate guess? I just switched over from transition to bloom to full bloom and ripening nutes. I was wondering what if any "flower booster" or that kind of food that I should use and when. As it is now, it's about 2.5 ft tall and close to that as wide. I'm hoping I can get at least 1.5oz dried as that would hold me over till next is done. That seem reasonable? Thanks for the advice/tips.

here are some better shots today. any advice is appreciated. I'm glad i stumbled upon this thread early before i got started because i can't imagine better results so far under anything else.
1.stem, 2.top view 3. cola 4. cola 5. bush 6.roots



starting of flowering


a view of the stem and how tall it is.


just a full frontal shot, glad to see the ornaments are showing up on the christmas tree


another view of the starting of flowering to top of plant




the roots are starting to come out of the bottom of the 5 gallon bucket..... should i just fill up the drain bucket i have it in now,attach them for the time being, and put the entire thing on a draining dish, or just start putting it on a dish after cutting exposed roots to smother new roots trying to come out and force them back up. i only put it in a 5 gallon about 2 months ago from a 3gallon and it wasn't even close to being rootbound then. also like i said in previous post, i'll take any tips or suggestions on trimming any new growth off the main stem the bottom 6 inches or so and anything i should be adding as far as nutes for a flower booster type stuff.

a top down view obviously

Alright alright guys, I overreacted, I apologize. I'll stick around and try to keep contributing, though I am probably the last guy to ask anyway since I am so new to all this.

I am curious about what Hyroot says about the infrared in Coral Waves triggering flowering... I can understand how that might trigger flowering if it's all you're using, but if you're dominating with a lot of blue spectrum that should keep the issue at bay, no? Pr0f seemed to suggest that as long as you're dominant towards blue it will stay in veg, and if you add enough red it will bounce toward flowering... and moreso, what about the time frame? If you have more blue bulbs than red-containing bulbs and you keep it away from 12 hours of darkness, I would think this would keep vegging?

I guess I'll be finding out on my own soon enough as when my ladies are done I will be moving some vegging plants out of my CFL chamber and into there to get more juice to them, but I intend to keep vegging them for some time still. The thing is I believe I will be keeping the coral waves in play, but my red suns will be replaced with blue bulbs again. Honestly I can't remember WHEN I got my coral waves and/or whether I had vegging going under them.

I'll let you guys know if it triggers flowering when I bring them in. The setup will be dominant towards blue, but will have coral waves and fiji purps still involved... if for no other reason, that I don't have any other PAR spectrum bulbs to put in place of the waves. I could put some 6000k agromax bulbs in instead I guess, but would rather stick with PAR spectrum bulbs.

I will be crossing my fingers that htey stay in veg, as I intend to do some serious vegging on these babies... they're in 5 gal cloth garden bags this time, so there is a lot more root space and it would be a waste if they didn't get a good chance to use that space. I was planning on going bigger this time, with a long veg period and a lot of supercropping to keep them growing mostly horizontal. There will only be 3 plants total instead of 7, under the same light and in the same space. So a lot more branching and a lot more vegging.

ohiogrown03 said:

here are some better shots today. any advice is appreciated. I'm glad i stumbled upon this thread early before i got started because i can't imagine better results so far under anything else.
1.stem, 2.top view 3. cola 4. cola 5. bush 6.roots



starting of flowering
View attachment 1913922

a view of the stem and how tall it is.
View attachment 1913923

just a full frontal shot, glad to see the ornaments are showing up on the christmas tree
View attachment 1913925

another view of the starting of flowering to top of plant
View attachment 1913926

View attachment 1913927

the roots are starting to come out of the bottom of the 5 gallon bucket..... should i just fill up the drain bucket i have it in now,attach them for the time being, and put the entire thing on a draining dish, or just start putting it on a dish after cutting exposed roots to smother new roots trying to come out and force them back up. i only put it in a 5 gallon about 2 months ago from a 3gallon and it wasn't even close to being rootbound then. also like i said in previous post, i'll take any tips or suggestions on trimming any new growth off the main stem the bottom 6 inches or so and anything i should be adding as far as nutes for a flower booster type stuff.
View attachment 1913928
a top down view obviously

Click to expand...

DONT DO ANYTHING! IT LOOKS GREAT! ROOTS will always come out the bottom of anything you put plants in to. DONT worry about it and let the roots do their thing whether they dry up or just sit there. Just keep a drain dish under it and keep it in flower mode. KEEP UP the good work my friend! This is one of the best, nicely bonsai pruned trees I've ever seen!!!!!!
Thank you for sharing the photo. Are you hand watering it or do you have a drip line attached somewhere?

AltarNation said:

Alright alright guys, I overreacted, I apologize. I'll stick around and try to keep contributing, though I am probably the last guy to ask anyway since I am so new to all this.

I am curious about what Hyroot says about the infrared in Coral Waves triggering flowering... I can understand how that might trigger flowering if it's all you're using, but if you're dominating with a lot of blue spectrum that should keep the issue at bay, no? Pr0f seemed to suggest that as long as you're dominant towards blue it will stay in veg, and if you add enough red it will bounce toward flowering... and moreso, what about the time frame? If you have more blue bulbs than red-containing bulbs and you keep it away from 12 hours of darkness, I would think this would keep vegging?

I guess I'll be finding out on my own soon enough as when my ladies are done I will be moving some vegging plants out of my CFL chamber and into there to get more juice to them, but I intend to keep vegging them for some time still. The thing is I believe I will be keeping the coral waves in play, but my red suns will be replaced with blue bulbs again. Honestly I can't remember WHEN I got my coral waves and/or whether I had vegging going under them.

I'll let you guys know if it triggers flowering when I bring them in. The setup will be dominant towards blue, but will have coral waves and fiji purps still involved... if for no other reason, that I don't have any other PAR spectrum bulbs to put in place of the waves. I could put some 6000k agromax bulbs in instead I guess, but would rather stick with PAR spectrum bulbs.

I will be crossing my fingers that htey stay in veg, as I intend to do some serious vegging on these babies... they're in 5 gal cloth garden bags this time, so there is a lot more root space and it would be a waste if they didn't get a good chance to use that space. I was planning on going bigger this time, with a long veg period and a lot of supercropping to keep them growing mostly horizontal. There will only be 3 plants total instead of 7, under the same light and in the same space. So a lot more branching and a lot more vegging.

Click to expand...

Here people are saying that 630 nm is more for veg and 660 is more for flower. Not sure if it helps, but take a look at this page.
http://youcannect.com/forums/topic/82/led

Looking great Ohio... very healthy. If I were you I would consider supercropping or otherwise training that top cola so that it's closer to the height of the others, then you could get the whole thing closer to your light! But it looks great as is and probably isn't necessary... just love those even canopies

okthanks2 said:

Here people are saying that 630 nm is more for veg and 660 is more for flower. Not sure if it helps, but take a look at this page.
http://youcannect.com/forums/topic/82/led

Click to expand...

Hm... didn't read the page yet, but if that is accurate, maybe I should leave the red suns in and pull the coral waves for veg. Seems crazy with the reds being so obviously red, but if 630 is good for veg and the infrared is more flower friendly, maybe I should put the blues in place of my coral waves instead for veg.

Hyroot, pr0f, interested in your assessment of this concept.

Obviously the red suns are around 630 which is (according to the link provided) being suggested to be ideal for veg... but is it worth it to sacrifice all the blue activity in the coral waves if I did the above? Keeping in mind that I'd have a handful of other blue bulbs compensating as well...

...can barely remember what my blue bulb lineup is now that they've been packed up in tubes for so long during flower. D'oh.

I've read through this whole thread and I'm totally down with all the info. Really appreciate it everyone. I've purchased about 20 new bulbs of a rainbow of colors to try this out myself.

Also, I know that site I posted doesn't say anything about infra-red, but I still think it might be a place to start for searching for info.

Peace,
Sage

AltarNation said:

Hm... didn't read the page yet, but if that is accurate, maybe I should leave the red suns in and pull the coral waves for veg. Seems crazy with the reds being so obviously red, but if 630 is good for veg and the infrared is more flower friendly, maybe I should put the blues in place of my coral waves instead for veg.

Click to expand...

Earlier in this thread someone said FOR SURE, take the coral waves out for veg, but I don't think there is anything wrong with trying them all out, who knows what will happen. It could all be strain specific you know? I have two 2x2 8 bulb T5 panels I will be doing a side by side comparison with the coral sun in one and the red sun in the other for veg. Also, I don't think the red is very important for vegging, I think that any daylight bulb that has a small spike of 630nm and 660nm should work fine. I purchased 2 of the FloraSuns for just that reason.
I was thinking a mixture of Fiji Purple, ATI Blue Plus, and Flora Sun would be a good mix. Not sure on the Super Actinic if that would go in there for veg or not?? I'm still impartial on the UV for vegging, it kind of sounds more harmful than good. It also sounds like if you want your leaves to be wider and bigger that you need more red in your veg, therefore, like you just said, maybe put a Red Sun in the mix for veg as well?

okthanks2 said:

Earlier in this thread someone said FOR SURE, take the coral waves out for veg, but I don't think there is anything wrong with trying them all out, who knows what will happen. It could all be strain specific you know? I have two 2x2 8 bulb T5 panels I will be doing a side by side comparison with the coral sun in one and the red sun in the other for veg. Also, I don't think the red is very important for vegging, I think that any daylight bulb that has a small spike of 630nm and 660nm should work fine. I purchased 2 of the FloraSuns for just that reason.
I was thinking a mixture of Fiji Purple, ATI Blue Plus, and Flora Sun would be a good mix. Not sure on the Super Actinic if that would go in there for veg or not?? I'm still impartial on the UV for vegging, it kind of sounds more harmful than good. It also sounds like if you want your leaves to be wider and bigger that you need more red in your veg, therefore, like you just said, maybe put a Red Sun in the mix for veg as well?

Click to expand...

Yeah, I hear you man. My blue lineup includes Super Blue Actinic, 454s, and a 75.25... I could leave one coral wave and one red sun and swap out one of each too. Hmmm. I am going to have to think on this heavily over the next week or so... not much more time to choose though, my ladies are getting closer and closer to harvest.

AltarNation said:

Yeah, I hear you man. My blue lineup includes Super Blue Actinic, 454s, and a 75.25... I could leave one coral wave and one red sun and swap out one of each too. Hmmm. I am going to have to think on this heavily over the next week or so... not much more time to choose though, my ladies are getting closer and closer to harvest.

Click to expand...

I've heard that UV helps build resin the last couple weeks of flower. Not sure how true this would be with CFLs, but what about swapping out with some more SUPER Actinic?

Well, I'm not gonna buy any more bulbs, can't afford to at this point. So I gotta work with what I've already got. The CFLs are just a temporary hold over in a second chamber to keep 'em alive until I switch 'em into the main chamber, which will be right when my current crop finishes. (Hopefully next week.)

Well, all I can say is your set up and photos look F'n AMAZING! I would hate to be the one that has to scrub all your equipment out and clean it when you are done though, LOL

eh? You must be thinking of DWC's grow. I am all soil. No scrubbing here. Just a quick wipedown of my reflectors and bulbs and I'm good go to again.

pr0fesseur, I am thinking of running these bulbs in the New Wave-28 (my grow box is only 34 inches on the inside, I wish I could use a badboy)
I am not exactly trying to be lazy but do you think you could edit your first post for us, giving the bulbs to use and when? I am a noob to t5, and your thread is very large, although interesting, a lot of misinformation by others and what not.

I have a 4 bulb t5 setup for veg, and 8 bulb setup for flower..

I am expecting a read the thread noob response though.

okthanks2, i hand water, i make up a batch of nute solution in a 5gallon water cooler type jug and just pour out into a gallon jug and use as needed. I put a airstone in the water for a few hours before i water. All through veg i'd use nute solution every few days, when soil felt dry when i'd finger it deep......., anyway, if i saw the tips of leaves start to curl or a hint of yellow i'd water with a gallon of water for about 3 days to try and flush some nutes out. Now in flower i've been using nute solution about every 2 1/2 to 3 days it seems before soil is pretty dry. I mean i waited until it was bone dry on top and i could barely feel a hint of cool/wet in soil a 4-5 inches deep. Only because i read a lot of people overwater, and i saw a lot recommending waiting until day 3 to even check soil(obviously the bigger they get, more they drink so i started checking every other day, now i check daily). I haven't seen any signs of the yellowing on tips and curling that i'd get in veg sometimes after i've been doing a gallon of nute solution every 36-48 hours now. The gallon seems to be about the perfect amount to get a little bit of runoff for me, but only maybe 1/2 inch in bottom of that bucket so probably about 2-3 cups. Also anyone have idea if it's indica vs sativa? i think it's more indica because of the bushyness, darker color, and i dunno what else. The fan leaves look a little more sativa, but not quite as long, to me when i compare to indica vs sativa pics.

AltarNation said:

Looking great Ohio... very healthy. If I were you I would consider supercropping or otherwise training that top cola so that it's closer to the height of the others, then you could get the whole thing closer to your light! But it looks great as is and probably isn't necessary... just love those even canopies

Click to expand...

i actually thought about that a few days ago, but i'm worried i'll end up breaking the stems this far along now that they are flowering i didn't know if it would be too much stress on it in flower. I'll probably fiddle around tonight and start seeing what i can do. I was also thinking of getting a second light to hang vertically with the bulbs pointing towards side of plant ya know like a "right angle of light" type setup with a turntable to keep a "even exposure" for the sides too. I already have a turntable that was used for glass art that could hold 75lbs. Crazy idea but since i only plan on doing 1 at a time really it might be an interesting experiment for people like me.

AltarNation said:

eh? You must be thinking of DWC's grow. I am all soil. No scrubbing here. Just a quick wipedown of my reflectors and bulbs and I'm good go to again.

Click to expand...

oh yeah, thats what I meant lol :/