LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

BlackMesa

BlackMesa

Active Member
Just out of curiosity, why didn't you grow a strain that you regularly deal with so you could get a basic idea if the lights produce more than your average yield just to answer the question that has the biggest impact? It seems like this testing method is setup to be inconclusive...

I am interested in experiments however so don't take it the wrong way. I am also curious that since your so close to the LED spectrum if you will end up with LED grow behavior such as higher resin production and shorter flowering time which both seem to be a growing trend.
 
SOCALRP

SOCALRP

Member
BlackMesa said:
Just out of curiosity, why didn't you grow a strain that you regularly deal with so you could get a basic idea if the lights produce more than your average yield just to answer the question that has the biggest impact? It seems like this testing method is setup to be inconclusive...

I am interested in experiments however so don't take it the wrong way. I am also curious that since your so close to the LED spectrum if you will end up with LED grow behavior such as higher resin production and shorter flowering time which both seem to be a growing trend.
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If you are following the empirical method then strain at this point is not yet relevant. I believe, although I do not speak for or on pr0f's behalf, that he is initially testing the efficacy of narrow spectrum lighting as far as it effects photosynthetic rates during veg and flower and how the flower structure turns out. I volunteer at a medical dispensary and I talk to folks all day long about growing. Most people (and I mean the VAST majority) still rep HID's really hard and I have to explain a little bit of the science to them in order for them to wrap their heads around the idea of T5 even being capable of delivering a comparable amount of light in the right portion of the spectrum as an HPS does. That is a function of the fact that to this point if you go to hydro stores you're not going to see the type of bulb variety that you'll see in an aquarium supply store.

pr0f's really blazing a trail here. I remember 15 years ago when I was first starting out and folks would literally jack commercial hps light off of buildings and poles (I grew flouro back then at it pretty much sucked); everyone knew that hps was good for flowering, but very few people knew why. Although the lumen output may have been the same as what you could have bought, those bulbs throw light in a portion of the spectrum that has since been proven ineffective during flowering. To this day you can go online and buy a 400W hps bulb made by GE for around 15 bucks, or you could save yourself the time and just literally light your cash on fire because those things are worthless.

I think everyone here wants to rush the process (it's natural, so no one should feel bad-- afterall, the last 2 weeks of flowering are kind of like a kid waiting to be picked up to go to disneyland). Due to space and time limitations I am unable to jump on this experimental bandwagon for four months, AND IT'S KILLING ME!!! When I do though, you can bet your last dollar that I am going to address some of the other future issues that we're all curious about-- I will be working with familiar strains, the lineage of which I can trace quickly back to oaksterdam; we have sent these strains out already to get tested and are cultivating them already for our patients. The recipes on these strains are totally dialed in, we know what our yield per watt is (we generally get .8 to .9 grams per watt on the low yielders, and 1.1 to 1.2 on the higher yielders), hoew the flower structure turns out and so forth.

It's not reasonable to expect pr0f to do all of the legwork alone. The man's got a life, a job, and bills to pay, just like all of us. Let's not forget that this is a community, a collective, and when we all work together we achieve the greatest possible results. Eventhough this thread began quite some time ago it had to be shut down for quite some time and is effectively only a few months old. I am looking forward to seeing where this all lead a year down the road. I should have at least 2 if not 3 harvests completed by then-- and yeah, I'm willing to shell out the gram and a half along with $50 to get the labwork done. All good things in due time my amigos!

Peace and Love!
 
hyroot

hyroot

Well-Known Member
SOCALRP said:
Brotha, that's a SMOKIN deal on that fixture!! Good looking out! I just happen to be kinda blessed and fortunate to have a good working relationship with a hydro shop and I pay nowhere near retail, but if I did that's def. where I would go.
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Just use that place to negotiate your price. I'm in Cali and I've used HTG's prices to negotiate. Also hydro source, their ebay store is cheaper and free shipping.
 
I

isthis2012

Member
SOCALRP said:
Hey 2012!!!

First off, I like that you are really enthusiastic about learning, and any tidbit of advice that I can give you comes so free-ly. I definitely like the fact that you are thinking outside of the box, wanting to stack your harvests and what not, but I don't think that's a very viable option in the long run. We know that you could obviously run T5's right over the top of any given canopy and that the proximity of your light source relative to the top of your canopy would be ideal, but there are other factors at play which play with your verticality (is that really a word?).

Here me out: You have 9ft. to work with vertically, and you want 4 shelves. That means from top to bottom you have no more than 26" per shelf. NOW, the fixtures alone account for 2". Now we're down to a 24" ceiling. I know you are willing to grow "small" plants, but I would have to question their overall viability given that plants so small would have inherently small root structures, thus making then hyper-vulnerable to various stresses. Even if you were to sog or scrog you still have to account for the root structure of the plant and you have to allow that root ball to seek out nutes. Even in a 3" basket you have to have some sort of a res that is 6" deep total, meaning that you can't go more than 18" up without hitting your light. That means if you're gonna try to scrog that you would literally have to take your clones and train them within the first 2 to 3 inches of their life to take to the scrog due to the fact that once you change the photo period to induce flowering you're gonna have to deal with the stretch.

While you're idea is both admirable and intriguing, I just don't see it as being viable overall. Your theory is correct, but the practical application, unfortunately, seems only plausible at best.

I personally am interested in max yields with limited sq. ftg. and thimk that this thread provides some key info to make that happen. Stay tuned for more!!!!

Peace and Love!!
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Good to know, thanks!

I am having second thoughts anyways, after reading of laws and such, I doubt I would ever get caught but it is a risk. And sadly (stupidly) in the eyes of the law, 100 small plants is a far more serious offense then a few large ones, even if they both yield the same amount of pot. Law enforcement around here also likes to say each plant has $1000 street value, whether its a 6" clone or a 6' pine tree. So for the near future I'm going to shift my efforts into growing large plants while I learn to grow better..not giving up on the idea though. Just for now I dont think I'll be building shelves of flowering pots. I was thinking though, you guys are probably right, 4 shelves under an average ceiling probably wouldn't cut it. I still think 3 would be viable though ;)
 
D

Dubnificent

Member
I'll post a 16 x 24watt (8 horizontal 4x2 vertical) grow in a few months. I want to tweak the proffs spec.s to include more UVB. I've got 16 2 footers will listen to ideas. Great post or thread Prof. I'm a fan. Been growing wit t5's for a while veg & flower I do alright. Have heat problems occasionally but more specifically have bulb degradation issues with the standard issue from the local hydro stores. They appear to only be good for one grow. Shoot me your configs. with more uvb, please. Thanks for your thread.
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
mrcryce said:
This is really a phenomenal grow, I did all this research as well but so far cost has prevented me from pulling the trigger so I've been using 4300k fluoros for a while. Wish I found this thread sooner, I think I would have just invested in those bulbs right out the door. I just got a bunch of 420nm and ~420/630nm T5s so I'm real excited about retrofitting them in. (For like $6 each I just couldn't refuse.)

I am using arrays of 4x24W T5s though so I don't have anywhere near your wattage. However my bulbs each have individual reflectors, which I have not seen in any commercial T5 array yet muahahha!(except for absurdly overpriced T5 arrays for aquariums) I do coco and aero and am planning on running side by sides, so I can't wait to see how my stuff compares to yours! By the way, in my research I ran across an article suggesting that some light in the 500-600nm in addition to red and blue enhances growth. Here is an excerpt from the abstract

reen supplemental lighting could also offer benefits, since green*light*can better penetrate the*plant*canopy and potentially increase*plant*growth by increasing photosynthesis from the leaves in the lower canopy. In this study, four*light*sources were tested: 1) red and blue LEDs (RB), 2) red and blue LEDs with green fluorescent lamps (RGB), 3) green fluorescent lamps (GF), and 4) cool-white fluorescent lamps (CWF), that provided 0%, 24%, 86%, and 51 % of the total PPF in the green region of the*spectrum, respectively. The addition of 24 % green*light*(500 to 600 nm) to red and blue LEDs (RGB treatment) enhanced*plant*growth. The RGB treatment plants produced more biomass than the plants grown under the cool-white fluorescent lamps (CWF treatment), a commonly tested*light*source used as a broad-spectrum*control.

Not sure if that means its worth it for me to throw some green in the mix too :P
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In my journal i link to the truth about green light a study done by phd's.. its an interesting read!
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
isthis2012 said:
I know they are used for cloning, I am talking about flowering a sea of green with them though. Nice to see support for T5 users in a T5 thread..wow. Why are they "not a good platform", its not hard to stick planks of wood under your try and raise/lower it as needed.

The idea is using vertical space efficiently. If you only have a 2x4' area but you can use up to 8-9 feet of vertical, you could use 3-4 shelves where the average HPS user only uses 1 "shelf" in a typical 7 foot tall cabinet.

Will T5 outperform HPS in a 2x4 foot area for flowering? Hell no. Will 2, 3, 4 shelves of T5 outperform it in the same floor space? That is my goal. These are a nice option for people with limitted space, ie you were willing to do a 2000-3000w grow but didnt have floor space for it, but had space for 3-4 vertical shelves of T5. You could do 1600 watts vertically in far less space then an average 1000w HPS uses (avg 4x4' table). Nice to see you being open minded ...
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Vertical grow systems are designed to be easy to clean and efficient.. ive seen great systems at a good price with HID in the center all the plants grow centrally...
http://www.hydrostacker.com/about.html
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
SOCALRP said:
Hey 2012!!!

First off, I like that you are really enthusiastic about learning, and any tidbit of advice that I can give you comes so free-ly. I definitely like the fact that you are thinking outside of the box, wanting to stack your harvests and what not, but I don't think that's a very viable option in the long run. We know that you could obviously run T5's right over the top of any given canopy and that the proximity of your light source relative to the top of your canopy would be ideal, but there are other factors at play which play with your verticality (is that really a word?).

Here me out: You have 9ft. to work with vertically, and you want 4 shelves. That means from top to bottom you have no more than 26" per shelf. NOW, the fixtures alone account for 2". Now we're down to a 24" ceiling. I know you are willing to grow "small" plants, but I would have to question their overall viability given that plants so small would have inherently small root structures, thus making then hyper-vulnerable to various stresses. Even if you were to sog or scrog you still have to account for the root structure of the plant and you have to allow that root ball to seek out nutes. Even in a 3" basket you have to have some sort of a res that is 6" deep total, meaning that you can't go more than 18" up without hitting your light. That means if you're gonna try to scrog that you would literally have to take your clones and train them within the first 2 to 3 inches of their life to take to the scrog due to the fact that once you change the photo period to induce flowering you're gonna have to deal with the stretch.

While you're idea is both admirable and intriguing, I just don't see it as being viable overall. Your theory is correct, but the practical application, unfortunately, seems only plausible at best.

I personally am interested in max yields with limited sq. ftg. and thimk that this thread provides some key info to make that happen. Stay tuned for more!!!!

Peace and Love!!
Click to expand...
Sounds like a 12/12 method!
 
SOCALRP

SOCALRP

Member
isthis2012 said:
Good to know, thanks!

I am having second thoughts anyways, after reading of laws and such, I doubt I would ever get caught but it is a risk. And sadly (stupidly) in the eyes of the law, 100 small plants is a far more serious offense then a few large ones, even if they both yield the same amount of pot. Law enforcement around here also likes to say each plant has $1000 street value, whether its a 6" clone or a 6' pine tree. So for the near future I'm going to shift my efforts into growing large plants while I learn to grow better..not giving up on the idea though. Just for now I dont think I'll be building shelves of flowering pots. I was thinking though, you guys are probably right, 4 shelves under an average ceiling probably wouldn't cut it. I still think 3 would be viable though ;)
Click to expand...
once you go past 99 plants the federal mandatory minimum is 5years, that's while you'll never see a rec that allows more than 99 plants.
 
two2brains

two2brains

Well-Known Member
SOCALRP said:
once you go past 99 plants the federal mandatory minimum is 5years, that's while you'll never see a rec that allows more than 99 plants.
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lucky you. 100 plants or more in my state is a whopping mandatory minimum 25 years with no chance of parole.

and people have the nerve to complain about high prices :evil:
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
mellokitty said:
@ pet flora:

shawn from quantum is a friend of ours and i was gonna bug him a little bit about how i was reading complaints about his company and before i got a chance to, he was like "let me guess, it's about putting the spectrum graph on the wp, right?"

he wanted me to let you know he's not ignoring you, he's just waaaaaay behind on all sorts of stuff (including getting on his proofreader to make the accompanying information to the bulb info 'publishing quality'). he and his family are in the process of moving to another country (they're literally leaving tomorrow) so he's been pre-occupied by that for the last month or so and sends his apologies. says he didn't expect the graph thing to take so damn long, and that he'll be back in office on the 3rd.

[/threadjack] sorry pr0f. you have done what i haven't managed to do in *years*; you've gotten my man sincerely interested in blue-spectrum fluoros. i can't even begin to tell you how exciting that is.
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Hey thanks for the update. FYI I just checked and the graphs still aren't posted. Thanks to what Pr0f has taught me, it probably has little meaning to me now, but it would for others
 
mrcryce

mrcryce

Well-Known Member
pr0fesseur said:
In my journal i link to the truth about green light a study done by phd's.. its an interesting read!
Click to expand...
wow. i read the article you were talking about (i hope i found the right one, i am referring to "Green light: a signal to slow down or stop") Amazing read, I never knew there was such definitive research in this area. Learning about the antagonistic relationship between red/blue light response and green light response reminds me of an idea I had a while ago when I learned about phytochrome and its role in flowering response. I was thinking instead of having a full 12 hour dark cycle, it may be possible to run a flowering period with cycles of 2 hours of "darkness" with 730nm far-red emitters, 10 hours of lights on. 730nm light is supposed to convert Pfr to Pr, which stimulates flowering, while red light (~660nm, predominant during the day) converts Pr into Pfr, which inhibits flowering. If exposing a plant to constant 730nm far-red during the "dark cycles" is enough to trigger flowering in plants, then it might be possible to get many more hours of photosynthetic activity over the 12/12 cycle. Have you ever heard about this? I was interested in trying it in one of my project boxes but I can't find 730nm leds, nor do I have the expertise to make my own array..
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
iNFID3L said:
i dont have room for 2x 4 HO t5.

and im only wanting to grow 2 at a time so 4 is do-able, but not 8

also, im having difficulty findin t5 bulbs in the uk that offer the same nm as the UVL bulbs, ahhhhhh

i might just have to get a hps after all
either that or just some 3k t5's and see what happens...
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Thinking on this, how about a 250 CMH VERTICAL you can put 3-4 plants around it and simply turn them 180 degrees at the half way point each day?
 
H

Hasbroh

Well-Known Member
PetFlora said:
Thinking on this, how about a 250 CMH VERTICAL you can put 3-4 plants around it and simply turn them 180 degrees at the half way point each day?
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I was thinking with four plants you could hang a center bulb and four in the corners and rotate plants individually or with a big lazy susan. This in a 4x4 up to a 5x5. And have at least 8 up top, probably 12 or 16. Or 1 big plant without the center bulb.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
A lazy Susan does not rotate the plants container (keeping only the exposed side to the light) , which is why you have to hand rotate. hth Let's not hijack this thread. ;-)
 
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