LEC Sun System 315W CMH/Philips Elite Agro 930 - Virgin Flowering Run

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Very cool, similar colouring on this one but more striped green/purple on the stalks, will get some close up shots at some point. I like it, very different than any plant I've grown but relatively easy to grow, some minor defs early but it's nice and healthy/strong now.
 

Hot Diggity Sog

Well-Known Member
Ok...here we go:

How many square feet did you determine can be well lit by this?
What kind of reflector did you use and did you use an adapter so it would screw into a standard HPS/MH screw in?
Was the light run vertical or horizontal?
Distance from Canopy...I saw one grower say he never adjusted the light and just let the plants grow up near it. He started and the light was like 6 feet away. Wondering if you had any thoughts on that.

Any info on reflector, ballast would be great.
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Ok...here we go:

How many square feet did you determine can be well lit by this?
What kind of reflector did you use and did you use an adapter so it would screw into a standard HPS/MH screw in?
Was the light run vertical or horizontal?
Distance from Canopy...I saw one grower say he never adjusted the light and just let the plants grow up near it. He started and the light was like 6 feet away. Wondering if you had any thoughts on that.

Any info on reflector, ballast would be great.
Coverage: lights up a 3x3 well, could be stretched slightly by going higher but there's a point at which you'll gain coverage and loose intensity. They're rated for 3x3 and I think that's a good balance between coverage and intensity @20-22" above the canopy.

Vertical: These Sun Systems I'm using are vertical bulb configuration, I've been told there's a slight efficiency gain and read something about that in the Philips documentation, it's slight like 2-5%. The unit is a complete ready-to-go system including the reflector (very high end), T12 vertical socket, and @120v it includes a built-in converter to allow them to run @120v. 240v units are the same less the converter and about $50 less (~$450). Some discussion and looking around at vertical reflectors in the high end, it would be difficult to piece together a better deal if you're thinking of going with a reflector vs. bare-bulb.

Adapters: Depends, they make the T12 socket bulb for vertical fixture/sockets like the Sun Systems. They also make mogul socket lamps which is what Advanced Tech sells, typically used for bare-bulb setups but could be used in vertical reflectors with that sort of socket if they fit in the fixture. If you go with a DIY or piece together a reflector setup you'll have to decide which bulb type/socket/converter depending on what socket comes with the reflector.

Distance: Kind of related to the coverage and I did a lot of trial/error testing in both rounds. 20-22" seems about the best. When I went below that at the beginning (10-12" then up 2" at a time until 22") I got top-canopy leaf discolouration/bleaching, too intense below 20" imo. So far I've run 3 strains and 2 of them, JTR and Blue Dream seem quite happy at 20-22" above the top canopy. I ran the BD in that range through the whole flowering cycle and it got a couple of leaves on the top slightly bleached but nothing to worry about. JTR got nothing really at that height. Myself, I started this current run @30" above the plants as they hadn't been pre-stretched @14/10 like I do if I have the space available in the veg cabinet. They're now at 24" above and expect they'll land right around the 22" mark. The second 3x3 I put in a few days back I left the light at the same height for now as the first 3x3 so it's also about 24" above the canopy, I'll have to move that as these stretch as they'll end up stretching about 8-10" or more. I'll just move them once and guesstimate the final height once they reach about 20" below the light.

Keep in mind I've only run the Sun Systems reflectors, not bare-bulb. There are a couple of folks setting up for bare-bulb runs, @a senile fungus is one of them and he's going with 2x bare-bulb and a light mover, see here. Could be slightly different heights running bare-bulb but I wouldn't go too close as it seems 20" is about the minimum height before you'll see leaf bleaching.

If you were using the same light for veg + flowering, imo you could go 30"-34" and get up to 4x4 coverage in veg, then move them down for flowering. They make a 4200k bulb which would be more suited (more blues) for vegging if using the same fixture for both veg+flowering. This is new stuff so a lot of it is just my opinion through testing and observation right now. This run will be interesting as I have 7 strains now in 6x 3Gal, 3x 5Gal, and 2x 2Gal in ~3x6' between the 2 LEC Sun Systems, having so many strains in there I'll get a better idea how each behaves @20-22" above the canopy. I thought I might have more issues with that many strains but so far it's been manageable and with the trellises I've been able to maintain a relatively even canopy. That won't last long as the second 3x3 I put in will end up about 8-10" taller once they stretch. Hope that helps, let me know if I left anything out.
 

a senile fungus

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind I've only run the Sun Systems reflectors, not bare-bulb. There are a couple of folks setting up for bare-bulb runs, @a senile fungus is one of them and he's going with 2x bare-bulb and a light mover, see here. Could be slightly different heights running bare-bulb but I wouldn't go too close as it seems 20" is about the minimum height before you'll see leaf bleaching.

I think with a barebulb setup you'd be able to get the bulb closer to the plants because you don't have a reflector. With a reflector, you have nearly the full intensity of the bulb being directed at a space of area 3ft² at around 20 inches. With barebulb it is a spherical or cylindrical area being covered, with no reflector to direct light in any direction. The result is less intense light in all directions, although maybe not so much directly towards the socket and directly opposite the socket.

Using the formula for surface area of a sphere, and accounting for an estimated 20% loss of sphere surface area on top and bottom of bulb, I'm still left with over 3.5x the square inches of coverage at 20inches of distance with the same wattage.

GroErr, yours is more intense, hands down. I think I'll be able to get closer than 20inches.

Also, with my particular setup, the lights are constantly moving, so that a particular leaf is never in an intense area of light for more than a couple of seconds...


Just a couple of things to think about...
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
I think with a barebulb setup you'd be able to get the bulb closer to the plants because you don't have a reflector. With a reflector, you have nearly the full intensity of the bulb being directed at a space of area 3ft² at around 20 inches. With barebulb it is a spherical or cylindrical area being covered, with no reflector to direct light in any direction. The result is less intense light in all directions, although maybe not so much directly towards the socket and directly opposite the socket.

Using the formula for surface area of a sphere, and accounting for an estimated 20% loss of sphere surface area on top and bottom of bulb, I'm still left with over 3.5x the square inches of coverage at 20inches of distance with the same wattage.

GroErr, yours is more intense, hands down. I think I'll be able to get closer than 20inches.

Also, with my particular setup, the lights are constantly moving, so that a particular leaf is never in an intense area of light for more than a couple of seconds...


Just a couple of things to think about...
Great points and insight, haven't run bare-bulb but what you're saying makes perfect sense. The reflectors, particularly these Sun Systems are like mirrors and would intensify the output, much more directional and intense but over a smaller area. I'm seeing a benefit running the 2 reflectors side-by-side, even at 20-22" with the reflectors if I turn off one light I can see another foot of overlap hitting the second 3x3, running the 2 side by side will gain some coverage, more like a 3x7 if I wanted to stretch them a bit. Always a balancing act between intensity and footprint coverage regardless of light tech/config.
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
This is the setup Gro?
http://www.amazon.com/Emitting-Ceramic-Fixture-Ratchet-Hangers/dp/B00HBCV8TM

Just curious...why do you suppose it is so expensive?
Yes, that's the 120v unit I have. The cheapest price I found was here at growershouse.com, paid $498 (their normal price) for the first unit, $448 for the second unit when they had an across the board 10% off sale, just checked and they have a 10% off all lighting sale going on until Nov. 25th so it would be $448 + shipping. The 240v unit would be about $50 less but assuming you're running 120v.

The expensive part is a combo of factors, there are few ballast that support those 315w and 210w, they use the Philips ballast in there. The 120v unit also includes a built-in down-converter that allows the ballast to run at 120v. The reflector is a very nice high end reflector, when I did a quick scan of reflectors in that quality range you'd pay in the $150-$200 just for the reflector. The bulbs (315w/3100k included in the package) are somewhere in the $80-$90 range, not hps pricing but also rated at 20,000 hours so really not much different than buying quality hps lamps over the life. Cheers.
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Very cool, similar colouring on this one but more striped green/purple on the stalks, will get some close up shots at some point. I like it, very different than any plant I've grown but relatively easy to grow, some minor defs early but it's nice and healthy/strong now.
A few close-up pics of that Blue Pyramid indica I was talking about yesterday. Very cool plant, looks like something you'd grow in your garden rather than a pot plant (hmmm, maybe I'll grow one in the garden next year? - lol). Very strong Blueberry smell which is of course the base genetics for this strain. Glad I have a couple of clones in the cloner, this thing's going to be massive, already stretching like crazy at Day 3 of 12/12.
BP-Day3-Flower-1.JPG BP-Day3-Flower-2.JPG BP-Day3-Flower-3.JPG
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Another interesting strain I have going in my 2x2 tent. This is a pheno search for a high CBD strain. Have clones going already for 2 pheno's of the 4 seeds I popped. Kind of hard to see them, they're the 2 at the back, nice stocky/branchy pheno's with lots of bud sites compared to the 2 lanky/tall one's up front. It's Harlequin BX4 from BC Bud Depot, supposedly a 1:1 THC/CBD ratio and anywhere from 7% to 12% of each. They're happy girls at Day 25 of 12/12, about 1/2 way through and budding up nicely under the LED's. Pheno #2 I think is the keeper, smells like pineapple/lemon mix with the lemon slightly stronger. Very easy strain to grow so far.
Harlequins-Day25-Flower-1.JPG Harlequins-Day25-Flower-2.JPG Harlequins-Day25-Flower-3.JPG

Cheers :bigjoint:
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
IR cam peek at the Blue Dream while it's drying, almost ready to trim up, another 24 hours and she's good. Will have to find a couple of hours to trim it up, Sunday likely, should have the weights posted Sunday night...
BD-Drying-1.png
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
The Harlequin is amazing! So furry!

Here is a top shot of the LA Con Clone #2:
Cheers,
Mo
Nice, you cali folks get some of the best strains! I envy the way you guys can trade clones and stuff, would be so cool to be able to trade/share seeds and clones :( Maybe one day up here, not holding my breath though. I do it with my son and a couple of old boyz I've been growing with for many years but it's all just between us, hush, hush like.
 

Hpchacrx

Member
I am new into growing and and have a question about yield. How does this cmh bulb rate vs hps for yield? My friend grows and says he gets 1.5 # per 1000w Does that seem right? Because I read this whole thread and it looks like you yielded .8# per watt. It seems like u really know what u are doing. He wants me to hps. But this seems easier. Your response would be appreciated
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
I am new into growing and and have a question about yield. How does this cmh bulb rate vs hps for yield? My friend grows and says he gets 1.5 # per 1000w Does that seem right? Because I read this whole thread and it looks like you yielded .8# per watt. It seems like u really know what u are doing. He wants me to hps. But this seems easier. Your response would be appreciated
Hey Hpchacrx, from the short time I've had it, I'd say these can easily outdo hps watt for watt. That pull was on my first full run with these lights, imo it could have been 13-14 zips and those weren't huge producing strains. 3 of those lights in the same conditions would pull close to the same wattage as 1x 1000w hps and would have pulled 32 oz/2lbs in a so-so run I just finished, up to 3 lbs. with the right strain, method and fine tuning. Running 4x 30" plants with some training in my style grow and the right strain, I think they can pull a pound per unit. That's 385w total pull @120v, and 340w @240v pulling that kind of weight. I'll be trying to hit that in a couple of rounds, probably with some Blue Dream as it looks like I have a good pheno going. Put them over a hydro SCROG, or vertical and you could pull out more if going for numbers. I know/like soil so I'm just trying different methods to get the most out of them, I just grow for a hobby, that happens to pay for itself ;)
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
I thought it was more open up there. For the longest time everybody here was going to BC to get the good stuff.
Open to a point, seeds are not illegal. Growing them is - lol And they can't be exported - legally. Socially most people are open to smoke or don't care if you do whether they do or not. But growing is a no-no and kept hush unless you're in one of the old med programs that allowed some growing. We have dispensaries in some provinces that are left alone but not fully legal and can only buy if you have a med card. There's a legacy grow program for med patients but the current government is trying to take that away, change it to large private grow ops, with strict rules, only bud (no edibles and the like), and of course the real reason they want it, to tax the shit out of it. Prices through that new program are $250-$300/zip for medical patients, a lot who can't afford it. It's a big tax grab at the expense of the sick. It was challenged in court and temporarily allowed growers and patients under the old program a reprieve. The government is appealing it and there's a case coming up in early 2015, hopefully the courts will prevail with something as reasonable as the first case. Either way unless it becomes legal, most growers stay under the radar. I could have gotten a grow card when I got cancer 5 years ago, my doctor would have supported it but decided not to. I've grown weed since my 20's, legal or not, why register now, and for some program that could be changed like just happened. Last thing I want is to be in some government database ;)
 
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