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LBH's SCrog Tutorial

Discussion in 'General Marijuana Growing' started by LBH, Jun 11, 2011.

  1.  
    LBH

    LBH Well-Known Member

    Scrogging, or screen of green, is a form of lst (low stress training) where the main goal is to maximize the footprint of your light(s) by dividing, or breaking down the main cola, in conjunction with raising all the lower bud up to the canopy.

    To do this, we grow the plant horizontally till we are a few weeks into flowering. This is a key point as many attempts at scrogging turn out to be merely a skeletal support structures for standard plants, not scrogs.

    A scrog is when you bring those arms up and run them lengthwise under the screen so all those, would be popcorn buds, become real buds because they are brought up to the screen or because the screen is lowered allowing them to become a part of the canopy.

    With standard, Christmas tree style plants, you can only lower the light till it’s close enough to the top cola. ANY bud from there down, get’s less light, the lower it is on the plant. The purpose behind scrogging is to manually change that and bring all the bud in an even layer by bringing the low stuff up (by getting screen good and low) and bringing the main cola down (by diving it via topping), to the canopy.

    The rough pics below illustrate my point.

    Group A- Scrog

    [​IMG]This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 600x450.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 600x450.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Group B-not a scrog.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 600x450.

    Beautiful under current but not a scrog. Skeletal support at best but again,not a scrog
    [​IMG]

    Now to break down the main cola and get the plant growing horizontally, I suggest trying my 4-way lst method.

    Screen materials

    I have tried pretty much most of the standard things you can use for screen. Below are the 4 main ones used, listed in my order of preference

    STRING- The very best. Laces up quick and easy and you just snip, snip, snip come harvest time. Throw it away and lace up a new one.

    Twine/hemp cord-Pretty much the same ease of use as string but you get hairs in the buds from fraying.

    Plastic fencing- works well but is kinda sloppy looking.

    Chicken wire/fishing line- The 2 worst. Chicken wire is terrible because the buds actually grow into it and you have to “cut” your harvest out. Snipping up chicken wire into a bunch of smaller pieces sucks, you get poked a lot and is an overall nightmare compared to string. Does it work as a screen? Quite well, but sucks to remove

    The fishing line is just bad news as it can cut a stem, arm etc, very quickly and easily. Consider it “sharp”. I have only used 12 lb test, I imagine something in the 30+ range might work pretty good though. Avoid any “braided” lines especially

    This is my version of a screen that is both easy to work and re-usable forever. I simply lined a square of 2x4's with eye hooks

    [​IMG]This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 600x450.[​IMG]

    Mounting

    Many build feet for their screens. This somewhat limits you. I like having screens where the height can be adjusted either by a peg system or some other ingenious way. I use shower curtain rods for mine and they work well, but you have to get used to not leaning on the screen or disaster can be right around the corner. To me, it’s worth it not to have legs in the way. Allows more room for “under canopy” cleaning and maintenance.


    So now that we are all laced up and ready to go, let’s talk about a key element to scrogging,….veg time.

    Veg time varies greatly mainly with method. Hydro, it’s much shorter. I used to veg 6-8 weeks in soil and now in hydro, that’s cut in half. This is something you just have to play with to really learn. You need to run a screen that could have taken more plant to fill (more veg time) and also run one that is too crowded. Once you get these under your belt, you’ll really have a feel for veg time.

    You will tailor the veg time according to how many plants and how big the screen. Sorry I can’t help more on this category, but this is the one you have to do to learn. The general rule to follow though is the screen should be no higher than 8” above the medium or plant base. You then fill your screen during the stretch by tucking (that’s coming) all those arms into the empty voids.

    Topping (Illustrations in the 4-way lst tutorial)

    By topping, we create more of these arms to spread out across the screen. That, to me,...is the whole point of a scrog. If I didn't top,...I'd have 1 cola higher than the rest, thusly, limiting my light height. By topping, that main cola gets divided down the buds are all level on the screen, allowing you to get that light right down on them for nice, even coverage. The expanse of the footprint will limit your height before heat does. (I have a/c lights)

    [​IMG]This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 600x450.[​IMG]

    The above plant was topped once. This gave me 2 arms to run under the screen. I normally build a plant like seen in my 4-way lst tutorial. I grew this one out specifically to illustrate how to run a branch horizontally under the screen. It will have 2 main colas, large, not XL as it was divided once already One more topping (4-way) and that pretty much divides the main into 4 med, med/lrg buds, perfect. But again this one was grown specifically so you could see how to grow an arm horizontally, this plant, if you wanted to name it, got "2-way" lst, which basically means,..topped once. I run 4 plants under a 4x4 screen and top twice (in hydro) (4 times when I ran soil)

    Top any more and you'll get MORE,...SMALLER buds.

    Tucking

    Tucking is easy but takes care. ALWAYS TUCK SLOWLY AND CAUTIOUSLY


    What we mean by tucking, is that while those arms are stretching, you allow it to grow up and through a square in the screen. I like to get them about 2”-3” above the screen and then I GENTLY, pull it below the screen and move it to the next square away. You continue to do this all throughout the stretch, …about 2-3 weeks.


    Remember, you are controlling where that arm is going by moving it 1 square at a time. You can change you mind tomorrow if you see the need for it, the screen takes constant manipulating till the stretch is over but once it's done, so are your scrogging duties.



    To obtain maximum control don't be afraid to work add more bondage if it's needed. Zip ties are awesome and can be simply cut out with the fiskars pruners later.

    [​IMG]This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 600x450.[​IMG]

    This is the final result, what you are looking for. You want a 6-8" bud above the screen when the stretch is done.

    [​IMG]
     
  2.  
    drmarcusg

    drmarcusg Active Member

    DUDE....great fucking diy......thanks...thats really gonna help out my technique
     
    italianstallion24 likes this.
  3.  
    LBH

    LBH Well-Known Member

    ur welcome drmarc :)

    From another thread:

    Yea, I'm new here so I just got them up. If you google them, they are stickies on most of the popular boards. (except grasscity,....they shot themselves in the foot as far as I'm concerned,lol)

    Aaaaaanyway,lol,....it can be done with either, but the stretchers just make for a little more work.

    I also like to control just what stretches and how much. By trimming very specific fans about a week before the flip, depending on how they look. When you trim both fans at a node, tyou drastically limit it's ability to stretch so if I'm running something with high sativa tendencies, there will be more lst, supercropping and defoliation in preparation for the screen

    Another tip,...If you have some "not so planned for" stretching and it wants to now go towards an area of the screen that is already too full, you can redirect it by zip tying it to the actual screen itself in a few spots and send it in another direction [​IMG]
     
    714steadyeddie likes this.
  4.  
    dapio

    dapio Well-Known Member

    wow bro this is truly awesome I myself was thinking why build some structure veg it up to 2 feet and spend all that extra time and money on the veg when the goal is the buds :D. I get confused though when it comes to a home depot run how do you generally build that outer square of your screen just get some lumber and measure it out I am guessing and how secure are those shower rods there I know one of those are holding up my shower curtains but the ingenuity is amazing here... I currently have one 400 watt and a unused 250 in a typical 3x6x8 standard closet i'm guessing that's standard I haven't measured it exactly but I have a 400 and a 250 it seems if I just got the whole closet setup with 2 250's I would be better off especially with this method but I am unsure I really like what you did here though bro its simple and to the point my type of guy no homo :D

    It just seems like it would be super sketchy doing that with shower rods however I am not sure how strong they are and do you have any problem with the plants lifting up the screen in that case? and it also seems that you have to build the screen to the exact length of the closet or else they screen could possibly roll around because of not having legs and being mounted on the poles I dunno I always get scared away by complexity of the project but this definitely seems like a rational way to produce some awesome buds in limited space.
     
  5.  
    LBH

    LBH Well-Known Member

    Yup. Make a square frame with 2x1 or 2x3 and then add eye hooks, every 2.5" inches

    You have to get used to not putting pressure on them but they were handy because of all the extra room for cleaning by not having the 4 legs on the screen. I have a set height now, 4" above the bucket lid, so I just built in stops to rest it on, works great. The shower rods were great too though,...cheap, effective and adjustable. Like I said though, the key is to get that screen real low and I think at 4", I've maxxed that.

    You could get away with 2 x 400's or even 600's with air cooled hoods and a/c

    Good question, but no.

    No, you're not over thinking it at all, you're right on. It's not THAT exact though, it has about 5 inches of play side to side

    This is a quick vid I made to show folks how to maximize a small space, back when I was still learning to scrog (not that you ever stop learning...) It shows how the curtain rods are used

    [video=youtube;8jmdJZ79NUU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jmdJZ79NUU[/video]
     
  6.  
    dapio

    dapio Well-Known Member

    well you convinced me I went to home depot today got a 2x3 chopped up and got about 50 eye hooks. I need to get some more money together and get some nails and those two shower rods but man I was looking at the ones that they have and they say 72" and of course it seems that my closet is measuring out to 73" doh! is this complete failure or a minor set back? I was looking at cinder blocks and my mind started wondering haha... but yeah I know in my head I just want something to mount my screen right above my pot and 4" sounds just about right to me!

    I am thinking about going and trying the shower rods just for the fact that "hey they might work and maybe i'll ignore that extra inch" but I have a few things lying around from jumping to conclusions so I do not want to take another loss :/ should I look for an alternative or just go try and go with the rods and see if I get away with it? other then this last mounting part I am pretty set in my vision once again this was very informative it should honestly be a sticky.

    I guess I could also just get my setup right and measure out 4 legs for each corner it wouldn't be the end of the world having them on there but man that idea sounded so great I cant wait to harvest my "christmas trees" out and start doing it right I was thinking LST was my miracle method but I was duped by monster stretching plants and my canopy went to crap really made cringe as I know the penetration is out of wack now destroyed my yield capability -.-.

    And also if I chose to ditch the shower rod Idea and go with legs do you know what exactly I would need to buy to connect the legs to the top rectangle? I always go to Home Depot but there floor workers are terrible the whole place is mostly deserted and occasionally I will find someone walking down the isles like a zombie that looks like they are just hoping you don't burden them with a question. I am assuming it is some type of bracket and by connecting the legs I literally mean like what type of "bracket thing" do they sell so you can nail and secure it to the top I am completely ignorant when it comes to building things everything in home depot just confuses me but I am determined to get this thing up and running!
     
  7.  
    LBH

    LBH Well-Known Member

    this is where you get creative. Lots of ways it can be done. Another would be to make a peg system,.....like shelves in your cupboard. the screen being the shelf.

    and 73" is gonna be a kickass screen!!! Mine are 49 x 40, 42 x 40, and 72 x 39 (that one has a 600 on a light mover (that closet not shown in video)
     
  8.  
    WattSaver

    WattSaver Well-Known Member

    Very nice article LBH. This is my 1st full fledged scrog, I've used other types of bondage, and the screen looks like its worth a try. As with most things I try in growing I modify to meet my needs. I cut my clones from my veg plants right before the 12/12 flip so my veg time is basically the same as the flower time...long. So instead of the screen being 7" to 8" above the medium I'm at 13" to 14". Is this a deal breaker? Will larger veg plants relate to bigger yields? Or should I work on reducing veg time in the future?

    Also not sure about the 12/12 flip time I choose but this just seems like something you have to do a few times to get it right. Tomorrow will be 2 wks 12/12, pictures taken day 12 of flower let me know what you think of fullness of the screen and if should tie down more of the heads.

    LED on
    [​IMG]

    Floro's on
    [​IMG]

    Now the one thing that really bothers me is the super cropping below the screen. I generally do light trimming but not alot, & on the last grow I tried to trim large fan leaves later in flower and it really slowed down the growth. Lesson learned. So at what point should all trimming be done? And do you take every piece of green that's below the screen, or do yo leave the leaf that's just under the screen? I started trimming a few days prior to the 12/12 flip. I've had 3 major pruning events (the last yesterday). Do I need to hack out more?

    Prior to yesterday's trim
    [​IMG]

    After trim
    [​IMG]

    To me I believe that the top is ready to go full term at this point, but not real sure about the under carriage. I would appreciate your comments positive or neg,

    Oh yea I should mention that I've got 3 different strains in this grow, the 2 on the left are NL x big bud, back right Bubble Berry, and a DJ Flo front right. I would imagine it would be simpler to stick to one strain. But I seem to like to torture myself. The screen is 38" square under a 350W 6 band LED
     
    Indagrow and greennewfie like this.
  9.  
    LBH

    LBH Well-Known Member

    Try my tutorial next round, you won't be let down, promise :)

    Grow 'em up!!
     
  10.  
    stickey

    stickey Active Member

    probably a noob question but im thinking of trying a scrog for my next grow.
    you obviously need some sort of drainage system since ye cant move the plant when its in a screen right?
    im in soil and water by hand.
     
  11.  
    LBH

    LBH Well-Known Member

    A key element to scrogging in soil is that you do need access to the dish under every pot for testing runoff, etc That's one of the many reason I switched to hydro. Watering them isn't hard at all but testing the runoff in the back 2 plants was a pain in the ass (running 4 in a square, in a closet, so access to front of screen only)

    I'm sure there is a decent way to do it though, just a matter of getting creative. Right away, I'm thinking if all the plants were elevated a bit on a table, maybe 10" off the floor, you could somehow fabricate a runoff drain for each pot or something like that.....
     
  12.  
    stickey

    stickey Active Member

    yeah was thinking of making a shelf with big enough holes to sit the pots into.
    and drain into a container underneath
     
  13.  
    jcurry26

    jcurry26 Member

    Great thread LBH. Clearly explains what an actual SCROG is. I think a lot of people get confused. Being a beginner out there and doing a lot of research, I see a lot of tutorials or posts that don't utilize the screen or method properly. Just Started my own Scrog so I hope to have similar results. One question though. When you say you used to veg for 6-8 weeks in soil how many plants, size of scree, light etc etc...? thanks for the input. Here's my scrog if you guys wanna check it out.

    http://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/440698-jacs-first-grow-jack-ripper.html
     
  14.  
    jcurry26

    jcurry26 Member

  15.  
    WattSaver

    WattSaver Well-Known Member

    Nice to see you changed the wording. In my next grow I might think about modifying my setup for better results. But I was really more concerned about my current grow, and where I currently was and maybe getting the most I could out of where I was at this time. I thought I spent enough time to ask some pretty specific questions in regards to my lack of experience in the scrog method, maybe tutorial in the heading fooled me. But hey thanks for the 2 replies in one frame. I don't want to come off like a ass, I just wanted some time sensitive info from someone who has appeared to have finished this rodeo many times before.

    Keep the lights above the screen, Peace
     
  16.  
    bigwood111

    bigwood111 Well-Known Member

    How many plants would you recommend to do in a 4x8 foot tent? I messed up my scrog last time so this time I would like to do it right. Thanks
     
  17.  
    dapio

    dapio Well-Known Member

    I got my screen almost built LBH thanks to you inspiring me to achieve a more efficient form of scrogging that woodsman guy is kind of uptight with his information I like your method a lot better as it is much more to the point.

    I will have some pictures coming up soon once I finish trimming and hanging of my next project, however if you had a screen that is about 2x3 LxW would you rather go with 1 plant in the middle and slowly spread it out or will it be easier to do like four and scrog them from them out in all directions until the screen is filled.
     
  18.  
    dapio

    dapio Well-Known Member

    Well my hands are rope burned and tired as all hell from twisting in these eye hooks but here it is!
     

    Attached Files:

  19.  
    LBH

    LBH Well-Known Member

    lol, next time use an electric drill and a socket :)
     
  20.  
    dapio

    dapio Well-Known Member

    hehe yeah I am completely ignorant when it comes to being handy lol I am taking a harvest out today actually that was a failed LST I got way overtaken by the stretching and realized if I ran out of circumference in my pot then I would pretty much fail at tying down any of the branches any further which is why I am now looking to SCROG as my new method of success!

    The only thing bugging my mind though now is that although I do want to keep my screen about 4" above my pot I am even more ignorant to using a hydroponic drip system so I stick to measuring and hand watering my only worry is that if I try to do 4 plants then the plants in the back will be hard to water but then again I can utilize the side of the structure and don't really see that as being a problem.

    My other worry is that yes the height of the screen being 4 inches above my pot will help me utilize my lower growth instead of wasting a bunch of time vegging it to the screen and chopping off a months worth of electricity haha... which is really the way I see it! anyways I have to tilt my watering thing upwards to get all the water out I just want to make sure that I can still water my plants without hitting the screen and getting held back by it but once again I think I may just be over thinking it and I am sure I will be able to work with it.

    And bigbud I will not be using shower rods instead I am planning on just nailing in some legs that will bring the screen roughly 15-16" off the ground my smart pots are about 10 1/2" inches tall so I will be right around my target height, I would have used the shower rods but my landlord is apparently a cheap idiot and my closet was built 74" in length and I saw that shower rods were standardized to 72" at home depot this would mean that I am 2" off and they would most likely just be a waste of time in my circumstance :/. However I will be starting up my new thread in a couple weeks i'll be sure put a link to it on here once I come around to getting it started let me know how your projects go for you I always keep an eye open for good material :D
     

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