Inequality and the USA: A nation in denial?

ttystikk · Sep 2, 2014

UncleBuck said:
the american dream is still alive and well.

And further out of reach than ever. The only people I know who are improving their own economic status are breaking the law- laws designed, not coincidentally, to reduce competition for those already rich, powerful and in control.

The Republican 'death tax' plank in their platform leads directly to patrimonial capitalism, a la Thomas Piketty.

The Republican assault on taxes (at least for the rich) guarantees that wealth continues to accumulate to the already wealthy, even if THEY stop contributing. From what I saw during my time in South Florida, they stop contributing early and often.

Income inequality has turned this nation into a carbon copy of the Great Britain our ancestors risked their lives to leave- and fought against for their freedom.

Now we just hand over our rights to govern to the likes of Halliburton and Monsanto?

Even the Supreme Court has decided that 'money is free speech'... so only rich people get to be free, apparently.

Padawanbater2 · Sep 2, 2014

Nutes and Nugs said:
OMG
I'm glad "your generation" has lost thousands of men in wars that helped build this country.

"Upward social mobility" with such hard work.
Wow, that is a great achievement your generation has done for the country.
You are tripping balls young man.

My generation has lost thousands of men in wars, the fuck? You forget about the longest war in American history my generation just fought? Howabout how your generation turned their backs on them when it came time to pay up for their medical coverage when they returned from combat, ya know, for your freedoms and shit, or whatever the fuck you idiots were spouting for the last decade? They fight, they're heroes, they come back battered and bruised, fuck em. That's your generations motto.

reasonevangelist · Sep 2, 2014

Nutes and Nugs said:
OMG
I'm glad "your generation" has lost thousands of men in wars that helped build this country.

"Upward social mobility" with such hard work.
Wow, that is a great achievement your generation has done for the country.
You are tripping balls young man.

I believe he was responding to the question: "how is it not?"

Padawanbater2 said:
Upward social mobility achieved through hard work, for one..

^ an example of how it (the "american dream") is not "alive and well."

And i'm pretty sure George Carlin was not a member of my generation... but he had it figured out too.

ttystikk · Sep 2, 2014

Megacorps have bought the Republican Party, which then buys our political system- to the laughable extreme that they legalize blatant corruption for themselves.

ttystikk · Sep 2, 2014

Democrats are not better- they say they're the opposition, but they take the money and vote how they're supposed to anyway.

ttystikk · Sep 2, 2014

The Occupy Wall Street protests were a peaceful demonstration that showed another way- which is one of the main reasons it was discredited in the (megacorp owned) media, and the victim if massive police abuse- because the cops were doing the bidding of the wealthy.

We live in a corporate fascist society; if you want rights and respect, BE PROFITABLE- no matter what the cost, or who pays as long as your shareholders get theirs.

Padawanbater2 · Sep 2, 2014

ttystikk said:
Democrats are not better- they say they're the opposition, but they take the money and vote how they're supposed to anyway.

There's a weird thing going on right now.. If you're for one thing, you're opposed to the other, automatically in these peoples minds. Take for instance the Israel/Palestine situation. I just had a bullshit conversation with Doer about it and he put me in that exact category because I didn't automatically support Israels indiscriminate murdering of the Palestinian civilian population. I think he even went so far to say I supported "jihad" because I didn't agree with his opinion... These idiots are simply unreasonable. They can't comprehend anyone could have a different viewpoint, or why.. So they must be terrorists too! (totally rational..)

You can't reason with someone who didn't reason themselves into their opinion.

To these people, you should say "OK, thank you for your opinion" and move on. There is literally no point in even discussing anything with them if they're automatically so polarizing. It'll just give you a headache from banging your head against the wall so many times.. :wall:

UncleBuck · Sep 2, 2014

Padawanbater2 said:
Upward social mobility achieved through hard work, for one..

you can still achieve upward social mobility through hard work, it's just not as easy as a generation or two ago when unions were stronger and someone with a high school diploma could get a factory job that paid them well enough to get the house with the white picket fence.

ya gotta work a little harder nowadays, but it's still there. otherwise people wouldn't keep showing up.

ttystikk · Sep 2, 2014

In the rest of the world, income CAPS are being seriously discussed as a means of limiting the wealth concentration. I propose the institution of more reasonable tax structures, ones that are progressive and don't shield outsized incomes from their fair share of taxes. Here's one; in all income of over one million dollars- no matter what the source of said income- tax is 75%. Can't make it on just a quarter mil? Awwwww....

ttystikk · Sep 2, 2014

Padawanbater2 said:
There's a weird thing going on right now.. If you're for one thing, you're opposed to the other, automatically in these peoples minds. Take for instance the Israel/Palestine situation. I just had a bullshit conversation with Doer about it and he put me in that exact category because I didn't automatically support Israels indiscriminate murdering of the Palestinian civilian population. I think he even went so far to say I supported "jihad" because I didn't agree with his opinion... These idiots are simply unreasonable. They can't comprehend anyone could have a different viewpoint, or why.. So they must be terrorists too! (totally rational..)

You can't reason with someone who didn't reason themselves into their opinion.

To these people, you should say "OK, thank you for your opinion" and move on. There is literally no point in even discussing anything with them if they're automatically so polarizing. It'll just give you a headache from banging your head against the wall so many times..

I write it anyway, because someone with an open mind might happen along and see the intrinsic strength of my arguments.

reasonevangelist · Sep 2, 2014

Padawanbater2 said:
There's a weird thing going on right now.. If you're for one thing, you're opposed to the other, automatically in these peoples minds. Take for instance the Israel/Palestine situation. I just had a bullshit conversation with Doer about it and he put me in that exact category because I didn't automatically support Israels indiscriminate murdering of the Palestinian civilian population. I think he even went so far to say I supported "jihad" because I didn't agree with his opinion... These idiots are simply unreasonable. They can't comprehend anyone could have a different viewpoint, or why.. So they must be terrorists too! (totally rational..)

You can't reason with someone who didn't reason themselves into their opinion.

To these people, you should say "OK, thank you for your opinion" and move on. There is literally no point in even discussing anything with them if they're automatically so polarizing. It'll just give you a headache from banging your head against the wall so many times..

This is the type of thing i find so frustrating that it makes me want to just give up, and never attempt to discuss anything with anyone ever again.

I've been calling it "absolutism," but i think there's a better term... just not sure what it is.

Nutes and Nugs · Sep 2, 2014

Padawanbater2 said:
There's a weird thing going on right now.. If you're for one thing, you're opposed to the other, automatically in these peoples minds. Take for instance the Israel/Palestine situation. I just had a bullshit conversation with Doer about it and he put me in that exact category because I didn't automatically support Israels indiscriminate murdering of the Palestinian civilian population. I think he even went so far to say I supported "jihad" because I didn't agree with his opinion... These idiots are simply unreasonable. They can't comprehend anyone could have a different viewpoint, or why.. So they must be terrorists too! (totally rational..)

You can't reason with someone who didn't reason themselves into their opinion.

To these people, you should say "OK, thank you for your opinion" and move on. There is literally no point in even discussing anything with them if they're automatically so polarizing. It'll just give you a headache from banging your head against the wall so many times..

I have to agree with this but I know you are a holocaust denier. :wall:

ttystikk · Sep 2, 2014

UncleBuck said:
you can still achieve upward social mobility through hard work, it's just not as easy as a generation or two ago when unions were stronger and someone with a high school diploma could get a factory job that paid them well enough to get the house with the white picket fence.

ya gotta work a little harder nowadays, but it's still there. otherwise people wouldn't keep showing up.

This is a great fantasy- if you're an employer. The truth is radically different; hard work gets you minimum wage in this country, which is so far below the poverty line that the idea that work alone gets a person ahead in this country has been turned into a cruel joke.

Getting ahead increasingly means having the inside track, a connection from (an elite) school, in some way outright breaking the law, WHICH IS WHAT EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM IS DOING, JUST TO DRIVE HOME THE POINT!

Bill Gates had wealthy and indulgent parents who let him engage in his interest in computers when they were expensive useless toys- an opportunity utterly inaccessible to the poor.

I've had this argument with plenty of economists with PhDs- nobody on this forum has anything like the ammunition they did, and I nailed them to their own cross, using their own theory; income inequality produced through corporate influence in politics is absolutely destructive to the host economy and its people.

reasonevangelist · Sep 2, 2014

UncleBuck said:
you can still achieve upward social mobility through hard work, it's just not as easy as a generation or two ago when unions were stronger and someone with a high school diploma could get a factory job that paid them well enough to get the house with the white picket fence.

ya gotta work a little harder nowadays, but it's still there. otherwise people wouldn't keep showing up.

I think it's more than "a little" harder nowadays... and it's highly likely that those people who do "keep showing up," are both escaping a much worse situation, and also operating on... "old school propaganda." You know, that thing how other countries sometimes first encounter what's been popular here, after 15-20 years has passed, and while it's no longer popular here, they think "hey, this new stuff/whatever/such-and-such from America!" I bet it works the same way with other things... the outsiders/immigrants are still operating on Reagan or Clinton era assumptions (of "what it's like to be in America"), while we natives are well beyond that...

Padawanbater2 · Sep 2, 2014

UncleBuck said:
ya gotta work a little harder nowadays, but it's still there. otherwise people wouldn't keep showing up.

People do not show up to work to fulfill their fantasy of the American dream..

People show up to work because they have to work to survive. They have to work to provide for their families.

"The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States, a set of ideals in which freedom includes the opportunity for prosperity and success, and an upward social mobility achieved through hard work. In the definition of the American Dream by James Truslow Adams in 1931, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream

We, the working class, gets 6%.. 6 fucking percent.. since 1980. Know what the upper class gets? 94%..

I'm in that working class. I believe the American dream, as outlined by wikipedia, is complete bullshit. It wasn't when it was thought up, working class Americans post WW2 experienced the American dream. But it's an unsustainable system of growth. Americans consume 4 times more than the world can provide, and have since the 1970's. How can we continue to consume more than the world provides and expect it to last forever? We can't. It was never meant to be sustainable, and that part of the American dream was never taught to people. We are the fallout of the failure of that system. My generation (our generation) is the first generation in America since before the Great Depression to be financially and economically worse off than the previous one. Previous generations of people don't understand that, they can't comprehend that, what it means or how it actually affects our lives because they themselves never went through it. They've never experienced it.. It will get better, but we're facing the blunt of the opposition because we're the first to go through it. It's expected..

6% simply doesn't do it for me.. I'm sorry to "nag".. sorry to "complain".. about equal fucking rights and equal compensation.. When the Supreme Court passes cases along that fuck the working man over, systematically, purposefully, and we end up where we are today at a fucking measly 6%... you can bet your ass the working man is going to say something about it.

If it was even 50%-50%, I'd accept it (even though it still isn't accurate), but the greedy fucks at the top have to pinch every single fucking penny. 6% is bullshit over the course of 35 years. We're simply tired of taking it.

Nutes and Nugs · Sep 2, 2014

ttystikk said:
This is a great fantasy- if you're an employer. The truth is radically different; hard work gets you minimum wage in this country, which is so far below the poverty line that the idea that work alone gets a person ahead in this country has been turned into a cruel joke.

Getting ahead increasingly means having the inside track, a connection from (an elite) school, in some way outright breaking the law, WHICH IS WHAT EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM IS DOING, JUST TO DRIVE HOME THE POINT!

Bill Gates had wealthy and indulgent parents who let him engage in his interest in computers when they were expensive useless toys- an opportunity utterly inaccessible to the poor.

I've had this argument with plenty of economists with PhDs- nobody on this forum has anything like the ammunition they did, and I nailed them to their own cross, using their own theory; income inequality produced through corporate influence in politics is absolutely destructive to the host economy and its people.

So the only way to succeed in life is to have wealthy parents?

ttystikk · Sep 2, 2014

reasonevangelist said:
This is the type of thing i find so frustrating that it makes me want to just give up, and never attempt to discuss anything with anyone ever again.

I've been calling it "absolutism," but i think there's a better term... just not sure what it is.

You're right, that's exactly what it is, and it's an intentional tactic to control the discussion and keep it from challenging the carefully constructed set of lies put in place by Faux News, Flush Limbaugh and the (sucks) Koch brothers. It's almost as bad as trying to talk about spirituality to a Southern Baptist; either you use their language of fundamentalist Christian dogma or no conversation happens at all.

The answer is to say your piece anyway. Don't let their onion (leaving this typo, it's too much fun!) be the only one. Make yours heard, and let those who listen and think decide for themselves.

ttystikk · Sep 2, 2014

Padawanbater2 said:
People do not show up to work to fulfill their fantasy of the American dream..

People show up to work because they have to work to survive. They have to work to provide for their families.

"The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States, a set of ideals in which freedom includes the opportunity for prosperity and success, and an upward social mobility achieved through hard work. In the definition of the American Dream by James Truslow Adams in 1931, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream

We, the working class, gets 6%.. 6 fucking percent.. since 1980. Know what the upper class gets? 94%..

I'm in that working class. I believe the American dream, as outlined by wikipedia, is complete bullshit. It wasn't when it was thought up, working class Americans post WW2 experienced the American dream. But it's an unsustainable system of growth. Americans consume 4 times more than the world can provide, and have since the 1970's. How can we continue to consume more than the world provides and expect it to last forever? We can't. It was never meant to be sustainable, and that part of the American dream was never taught to people. We are the fallout of the failure of that system. My generation (our generation) is the first generation in America since before the Great Depression to be financially and economically worse off than the previous one. Previous generations of people don't understand that, they can't comprehend that, what it means or how it actually affects our lives because they themselves never went through it. They've never experienced it.. It will get better, but we're facing the blunt of the opposition because we're the first to go through it. It's expected..

6% simply doesn't do it for me.. I'm sorry to "nag".. sorry to "complain".. about equal fucking rights and equal compensation.. When the Supreme Court passes cases along that fuck the working man over, systematically, purposefully, and we end up where we are today at a fucking measly 6%... you can bet your ass the working man is going to say something about it.

If it was even 50%-50%, I'd accept it (even though it still isn't accurate), but the greedy fucks at the top have to pinch every single fucking penny. 6% is bullshit over the course of 35 years. We're simply tired of taking it.

Or, to put it more succinctly;

UncleBuck · Sep 2, 2014

ttystikk said:
Bill Gates had wealthy and indulgent parents who let him engage in his interest in computers when they were expensive useless toys- an opportunity utterly inaccessible to the poor.

that's a good point, but bill gates type wealth is not what most people think of as the american dream.

UncleBuck · Sep 2, 2014

Padawanbater2 said:
"The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States, a set of ideals in which freedom includes the opportunity for prosperity and success, and an upward social mobility achieved through hard work. In the definition of the American Dream by James Truslow Adams in 1931, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth."

how is that not possible anymore?

admittedly, it is tougher to achieve, but nowhere near impossible.

what is your "dream"?

Inequality and the USA: A nation in denial?

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