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High-pressure (aka "true") aeroponics - nutrient schedule?

Discussion in 'Aerogardeners' started by QuentinQuark, Jul 16, 2009.

    Mike Young

    Mike Young Well-Known Member

    I don't get what you're trying to say here broski. Sounds like a sales-pitch to me. I don't know that there's anything a genesis machine does that hasn't already been replicated by some folks here. Telling people to stop tinkering (wasting time) with established, as well as un-established ideas/parameters, to promote an over-priced system/CD-ROM... What's in it for you?

    The atomix: If I were a betting man, I'd say they went under because the market for a 5k aero rig just wasn't there. Not due to any patent infringement, though I am a bit of a conspiracy theorist myself:)

    The link you provided is broken, btw.

    Stem restriction: Most everyone I know of uses netcups with rockwool, topped with bio balls. I don't think stem restriction plays much of a roll there. PF loves his PVC couplers, and as long as the stem doesn't out swell the coupler... Same result. I cut my own neoprene disks using a much denser foam that used in the ones you can buy. The foam held the plant it's entire life of about 6 months, and the stem was about 2" diameter. While my disks provide the most restriction of all, I could see no visible signs of restriction around the stem. One would think that if the stem was being pinched too hard would form an abnormality around the area. Not saying saying it doesn't in a small way play a role, just that it's nothing to go reinventing the wheel over.

    If you bought the CD-ROM, why don't you build something from it and show us what it's about. I'll watch that. Less preachy preachy, more buildy buildy. All in good fun, man.

    foresakenlion Active Member

    Here's some more info buried on Aeroponics.com

    Includes High pressure pump unit w/ high capacty accumulator, digital timer (multi-settings/ programmable), hydro-atomizing 20 spray jets, Hydro-controller, power strip w/ GFP, aeroponic chamber(48 in. Long x 18 in. wide x 16 inches deep) w/ 160 plants support structures, stand, nutrient recycling reservoir (7-gal) w/ auto-refill, 3-stage effluent filtration, stainless steel delivery hoses, pre-filter w/ reverse osmosis pure water supply system, drain connectors, thermoregulator, thermo-vapor guard, side panels w/ breathers, plant suspension rod,reservoir over-flow protection & auto-refill, oil-filled pressure gauges, by-pass valve, additional chambers expansion ports, 85 page installation manual and grows guide, cleaning tools, 6-month supply of nutrients and BEYOND All Natural Plant Health Booster, Seed-Pads (160 ea.), pH Adjuster, Propagation Agent, complimentary eeds, Aero-Nets, Aero-Pads, Aeroponic Encyclopedia CD-ROM and a one year limited warranty (parts & labor).* High-Efficiency Light Array (1/4 the photosynthetic power of natural sunlight) (includes UV & Infra-Red Filtration and reflective shade cloth and automatic fail-safe plant protection and light timer)With this you have a very good understanding of the layouthttp://www.aeroponics.com/start2.html <- shows the layout

    foresakenlion Active Member

    Sorry for that badly formatted post above, format errors warped it badly. The point being they give you the number of sprayers, the area of the container, and the feature list, and I will note I've already read without the effluent management your plants will die period, anyone trying to short change this better be draining to waste frequently. They also noted that filtering and recycling nutrients + hormones leads to a 50%-75% increase in growth rate versus dumping, this alone is enough reason to figure out a DIY filtration solution, be it ULTRAFILTRATION, or REVERSE OSMOSIS.

    Hanna has a product I've seen in magazines before, a fertigator, it's pretty pricey but compared to the commercial equipment nothing close, and it's a turn key solution around sourcing your own components for the nutrient injector.

    Ouch, only quote I could find in reasonable time is 2,200$ the entire Genesis machine original version is 3,699$ if you can't DIY a design with those components under that then I'd say maybe that is REAL MARKET PRICE for a complete Aero solution, thoughts?

    foresakenlion Active Member

    Preachy Preachy? This is why I do not visit you Aero nut cases anymore, you took something that is established and defined, and tried to do this magic mumbo jumbo and redefine it as something else, which is a complete failure, if you think you know more than the people that invented the method, if you think you have more research on aero than NASA and the National Science Foundation, then you're utterly deluded and can't ever be helped.

    Preachy Preachy = Reality Reality

    On stem restriction, you're wrong period, you have not spent a dime researching it versus NASA, NSF and AgriHouse w/ 15 years of experience....

    So your only reaction to the pure definition of Aeroponics from the people that own it commercially and did all the research a bunch of stoners stole from the patent of to think themselves the masters there of while spawning insane fanatics like Fatman, and the whole TAG cult is to accuse me of some kind of personal profit for trying to set you knuckleheads straight?

    If anything I guess I could accuse all of you of trying to profit off other people's patents, and doing it badly.

    There is a reason not a single crops been completed in one journal, you all skip the effluent filtration and poison your own plants with hormones.

    I'll do you favor though bro, I will not argue with any of you about Aeroponics anymore, just make my own thread and define it according to the real source, do my part to attempt to stop this mass deception of what AERO is and IS NOT.

    foresakenlion Active Member

    You're a bright dude... if you can't source the effluent filtration and nutrient injection less than the commercial units, this is pointless outside of a tinkering hobby, which is perfectly valid for fun and experimentation but not something you should ever advise to a medical patient on a limited budget trying to fight something like chronic pain, cancer, etc.... those people do not need to tinker, they need people with able bodied minds like ours to figure out solutions to their plight and stop wasting their money while they die, in one field where stoners who are considered largely morons can help make the world a better place and therefore elevate the culture, a bit grand yes? Feasible if we get rid of this misinformation in the market? ABSOLUTELY.

    foresakenlion Active Member

    You asked what I profit off telling people where to get real units that are already available and complete with redundant features to make sure an Aero crop makes it to finish? I benefit not one PENNY of monetary compensation but I do gain the knowledge someone out there with a condition that warrants it and the money to afford it can acquire it, use it to produce medicine for their ailment without having to wad through people arguing about a method none of them invented, pioneered or commercialized. That's worth being annoying to an up and coming cult of make shift acolytes.
    Mike Young

    Mike Young Well-Known Member

    I find that first hand experience is invaluable. Something that you've managed to dodge in 134 posts. How is that? For as much information & interest you have on the subject, not ONE sliver of your info comes from personal experience. Not ONE photo of your setup/roots/anything. You state that you grow medicine for yourself & others, yet I find it interesting that in every one of your posts, not a single first hand experience is mentioned. You call mine & everyone elses attempt to build a true aero rig a failure??? I have obtained beautiful white fuzzy roots in my rigs, and have finished every crop started. There is always room for improvement, of course. So what I guess I'm trying to say is that I'm calling you out. As a dick for disrespecting everyone who's put time & energy into this, and a poser for never once recalling from your own experiences. Are you using a genesis machine yourself, or have you actually built a system from scratch? Put your money where your mouth is. Show me that my results are inferior to yours. Enough with the lip service, and show me. I've got plenty of pics. Cheers.

    Ester Active Member

    I don't know what your on about. Aero was developed by the sources you mentioned but way to pricey and not for the common grower. Your on some sort of trip or tangent and where it is leading only you know. The community in large is trying to beat costs and tinker around with improving all aspects of aero e.g. lpa hpa etc.. You going around rambling about who is better or this is the real deal makes you sure sound like a fan-boy. I for one appreciate seeing the threads here and hope they continue on growers own experiences. Instead of copying and pasting what is out there from Stoner and Nasa help by contributing with ideas. Respect :)

    PROF XAVIER Active Member

    To foresakenlion...while I too am a bit perplexed by no journals, pics, or proof of why accumulators, solenoids and hundred dollar nozzles are necessary to achieve true aeroponics....(whatever the definition of that is these days), I'm also confused by your comment about poisoning your plants with hormones? Now I agree that in recirculating systems, (which I have) that filtration is critical, because yes...plants poop and we need to keep the water clean. But could you show me a link of an scholarly article relating excessive hormone buildup in hydroponics to the point of toxicity? I researched it, and can't find much on the subject, other than hormones being secreted INTO the plant through the cells and up INTO the plant, but released from the roots into the water of a hydro system? I'm probably wrong, which I am alot, but this concept of hormone toxicity doesn't seem feasible being that plant hormones are produced in extremely small amounts. Like to hear your input.

    oxanaca Well-Known Member

    i think its funny he took a shot at fatman, at least fatman knew his chemistry, and he drew pictures, shit he basically designed my system for me.i can understand effluent management in space, as you kind of have no choice but to recycle up there. but why youd want to do that down here, rather than just start out with ro add salts and ph it, i dont know.

    PROF XAVIER Active Member

    Recirculating systems can make better use of the existing nutrients, which means using less water and less nutrients, making it more efficient and cost effective, and having a less harmful overall impact on the environment.

    PROF XAVIER Active Member

    Most people who take shots at others are more than likely bitter because they can't accept the fact that their grows are less than desirable and in no means can prove otherwise.
    thump easy

    thump easy Well-Known Member

    man i wish that was the case i find my self putting about 35 gallons every day of water in aroe they drink like reached hores at a mexican bar.... i top every day if you get it down wear your roots are just out of control you'll find your self doing the same, on another note i have been wanting to run that supper micron nossle and pump i gona click on and check it out but ya man aroe is the best way to go in my eyes... and if you got it down you will be adding water everday and toping reading the plants as what they love mine always pray to god leaves at a 45 degree angle upward all day everday... that means their HAPPY!!!! :)

    oxanaca Well-Known Member

    i think that it would definitly make sense to recycle your nutrient solution, but only if you have huge tanks of used nutrient solution and you sent a sample off to a lab and they give you an analysis. and then you add enough of those chemicals to bring it back to the original proportions and concentrations.otherwise i think its a bad idea. you end up contaminating your resevoir with unproportional nutrient solution. and dont forgettheres very little run off once your roots start getting big and you always end up having to throw away the solution at some point as it becomes to badplus nutrients are pretty cheap. damn near free if you buy salts in bulk and mix them yourself

    indrhrvest New Member

    Our tests showed 3.4 gallons per site per 45 days with drain to waste HPA. Recirulcating systems get around 4-6 gallons per site per 45 days.
    Trichy Bastard

    Trichy Bastard Well-Known Member

    This thread has too many misconceptions to even start addressing them any more... Go look at G-love's journals- he has 5 or so completed grows that look magnificant, as does tree farmer... Maybe I notice stuff like that because I came to this hobby with a completely open mind and a clean slate. I did not allow my automatic assumption that Richard Stoner was the end all be all of aeroponics to cloud future input and experiences. In my mind he made some great contributions, and some of the very people here getting martyrd actually perfected his work alot better than he has so far... Just my 2 cents... Tell you what- I have learned huge amounts the last year or two on this subject, I am about to put together a fairly cheap AA system that is drain to waste- the waste will be nearly immeasurable, so definitely not worth recycling and having to re-ph/fertilize. I am so gung ho for what I am building I'm tempted to document and take pics, and if I don't get pretty amazing results I will get on my knees and publicly claim I was wrong all along...

    ROLLING12 Member

    Got here the feminized Berry, THC, Super Lemon Haze, and LSD from seed (1 of each) and they are now entering day 2 of their 3rd week of veg and so far I'm impressed. I've got them on a solid homemade aeroponic system doing 15 minutes on and 30 minutes off with a 400W HPS light doing 18hrs on and 6hrs off at about 18" away from the top (horizontal) attached to a hammered light-reflector. Though no fans nor Co2, these meds are not enclosed in a closet nor confided in a tight space. Based on the hand test, the temp feels like tropical hotness but not too much as to burn.

    I've been using advanced nutrients' Micro (2-0-0), Grow1 (1-0-4), Grow2 (2-1-6), Bloom(1-3-4), B52(2-1-4), and Overdrive(1-5-4), and also adding canna rhizotonic and cannazym to the mix.
    Here's my nutrients input for a 3-week vegetative cycle:
    during the first two weeks I use Rhizotonic as directed and 2mL of Overdrive per L in my reservoir;
    then for each week of the 3 weeks of veg, I use:
    B-52 at 2mL per L;
    Micro at 5mL per L;
    Grow at 4mL per L;
    Bloom at 4.5mL per L.

    As far as the flowering cycle, I am planning on using:
    Cannazhym as directed for each week;
    Micro at 4mL per L foe each wk;
    Grow at 4mL/L the 1st wk then 4.5mL the 2nd wk, and 5mL for each wk after that;
    Bloom at 4mL/L duringn the first half of the flowering cycle, then increasing to 5mL/L for each wk after that;
    Rhizotonic as directed for the first 2 wks only;
    Overdrive at 2mL/L the 1st wk and the last 2 wks only;
    and B52 at 2mL/L from the 3rd wk until the beggining of flushing;
    I am planning on doing a flushing with nothing but tap water for one week right before harvest.

    I've topped them using uncle Ben's technique (Uncle Ben's Topping Technique to Get 2 or 4 Main Colas) and got the four main colas/kolas. I've also been taking two clones out of each one of them on day 1 of week 2. They've been growing so fast that I've topped them again to let 4 more main kolas for each of the 4 initial main kolas on day 1 of week 3.

    They are growing so fast! I've never seen anything like it. Actually, it's my first time growing and I'm not smoking anything until they are ready to smoke! It's a peaceful hobby and taking care of plants heals me in a way. Needless to say, I'm excited about this growth!
    The characteristics about these strains were particularly attractive to me when I had to choose a strain. For me it was the yield to thc % ratio and with a fruity or candy taste apparently.

    I am new to this site, and would welcome anyone with some help, tips or advice to get me on the right track with the advanced care of plants or other things such as friendship, journal entries, good references, etc. Feel free to holla at me. Peace!


    foresakenlion Active Member

    Mr. Stoner himself had this to say about “True Aeroponics” at the below URL.


    "I have been asked about what is the definition of ‘ True Aeroponics’? If we look at the general definition of aeroponics – it is the process and method of growing plants in air without soil. So true aeroponics is the method of growing plants entirely in air. In this manner the air grown plant has complete uninterrupted access to 100% of the oxygen and CO2 in the air 24/7. Of course, until such a time that a short burst of nutrient enriched hydro-atomized water is sprayed onto the stem and roots of the suspended plant.

    The micro-environment of a true aeroponic system all depends on a repeatable apparatus. How is this accomplished? In the early days of the internet I posted an animation that shows how it’s done. It is now found on Wikipedia, I still think it fairly well demonstrates the principal of true aeroponics. My first aeroponic device – connected to a hose and operated by standard tap water pressure. It was patented in 1983, the aeroponic plants are sprayed intermediately and the effluent is drained away. The true aeroponic method is still in practice today by AgriHouse."

    Mr. Stoner is to me saying that within the context of the commercial systems produced by AgriHouse is that what defines a true aeroponic system is the repeatable intermediate spraying of hydro-atomized water combined with the removal of effluent. The TAG system while delivering hydro-atomized water does not contain equipment for effluent removal. There is no reason why it can’t

    The 5-50 micron size range for droplets was discovered by NASA and not Richard Stoner. It's reasonable to assume the Genesis Machine and TAG systems produce some droplets outside of NASA's range, however as long as a system provides droplets within the range plant life should be sustained long term.

    It’s logical to assume as long as a system provides droplets within the 5-50 micron range that it can be labelled as aeroponic. At what micron size does it stop being considered aeroponic? That seems to be an unanswered question. In that light it seems the 5-50 micron droplet size range is more of a hard lower limit of the size of droplets that can be provided without plant death.

    I did not include the details of the Genesis series systems by AgriHouse to discourage anyone in their efforts. I did include details to give everyone a solid ideal of what they should be trying to achieve. AgriHouse has already figured out every component and subsystem required for redundantly safe repeatable aeroponic crop cycles.

    All there is left to do for the community is to attempt to source components to see if it would be feasible for any individual to assemble their own system with off the shelf equipment for less than acquiring one directly from AgriHouse.

    The Original Genesis Machine system is listed as $3,699 and contains Spray Jets, Accumulator, Hydro-Controller, Digital Timer, Effluent Return, Stand, Reservoir, High-Pressure Pump and Effluent Filtration. It seems that this could be done in the same form factor for much less than $3699

    The Genesis V system is listed without price quoted and contains Spray Jets, Accumulator, Hydro-Controller, Digital Timer, Effluent Return, Stand, Reservoir, Expandable, High-Pressure Pump, Reservoir Frame, Effluent Filtration, Thermo-Sensor, Fail-Safe Sensor, Auto-Refill Sensor, Pre-Filter, R/O Filtration, Auto-Refill Solenoid, Reservoir Overflow Protection and Effluent Bio-Filtration.
    1. Spray Jets
    2. Accumulator
    3. Hydro-Controller
    4. Digital Timer
    5. Effluent Return
    6. Stand
    7. Reservoir
    8. High Pressure Pump
    9. Reservoir Frame
    10. Effluent Filtration
    11. Thermo-Sensor
    12. Fail-Safe Sensor
    13. Auto-Refill Sensor
    14. Pre-Filter
    15. R/O Filtration
    16. Auto-Refill Solenoid
    17. Reservoir Overflow Protection
    18. Effluent Bio-Filtration
    With this complete list of components in the system all anyone has to do to achieve true aeroponics is to emulate it.

    Air pressure can be used as an alternative to a high pressure water pump.

    If Drain To Waste is an option then that eliminates the need for Effluent Return/Filtration and Bio-Filtration.

    The Thermo-Sensor is not defined as to whether it’s for air or water. If it’s for air then it’s not defined whether it’s for inside the chamber or outside. If someone knows please tell.

    The Fail-Safe Sensor is a bit of a mystery to me. Can anyone explain its function?

    An Auto-Refill Sensor is probably a float switch or series that commands the Solenoid’s actions. This functionality is also provided by commercial products like the GroBot.

    Their Pre-Filter I assume but may be wrong may be a simple John Guest filter.

    Ultrafiltration could be an alternative to R/O Filtration

    Reservoir Overflow Protection is probably a float switch or switches.

    Effluent Bio-Filtration is available from pet stores dealing with fish tanks.

    foresakenlion Active Member

    Hundred dollar nozzles? The AgriHouse nozzles are made of the nylon. They're not hundreds of dollars. They're $6.95 per nozzle on their own website. It's worthy of noting AgriHouse had this nylon material created specifically for their R&D project for NASA. Without NASA who contracted Richard Stoner's AgriHouse there would be no nylon fittings on the market today. Every single one of you using nylon fittings owes him a thank you. An accumulator is required to maintain 100 PSI. Solenoids are required to limit the length of the bursts and limit dripping to prevent large droplets as are check valves.

    Hundred dollar nozzles? The AgriHouse nozzles which are made of a nylon material which they specifically had created during their R&D for NASA on aeroponics for the purpose of using for aeroponics are $6.95 per nozzle on their website. Every single person using nylon equipment in hydroponics or aeroponics owes Mr. Stoner and AgriHouse a thank you for the creation of this nylon material which works so beautifully for these applications.

    An accumulator is required to maintain the required 100 psi. On demand generation of pressure will not allow you to maintain 100 psi through the entire spray cycle. The solenoid is required as are check valves in order to minimize dripping out of the nozzles after the spray cycle completes. If you again generate on demand pressure without the solenoid there will be dripping after the cycle. I however do not know in demand mode if merely using a check valve is sufficient to prevent this dripping and it may well be. Perhaps someone else can answer that for you.

    Here are several links to scholarly articles specifically about root exudates and their phytotoxic effects. Also thank you for admitting your being wrong, I am often wrong my self. Being corrected is the only way to learn. Some of these papers note the ability of plants to absorb and excrete through their roots though they use the scientific term "exude". Perhaps this is why it was hard for you to try to find these papers as I had find the correct terminology.

    Below are provided several links to scholarly articles specifically about root exudates and their phytotoxic effects. Thank you for admitting to being wrong often, I am often my self wrong and being corrected is the only way to learn. The jist of it all is that though plants exude only a small amount of phytotoxins those phytotoxins can also be absorbed through roots and this is bound to happen in a recirculating system of any kind.

    Most growers are aware of the effects of this without being aware of the science behind it. It's common advice in hydro / aero to regularly drain and refill reservoirs. While ignorant of the science this practice in effect minimizes the effects of phytotoxic build up. Many growers who do not drain and refill their reservoirs during cycles still drain and refill in between cycles and this too minimizes the effect of phytotoxic build up.

    Therefore it seems the reason this is a minimally visible issue is that pioneers in the field devised strategies to avoid the majority of its effects though to not be aware of it will not be beneficial to anyone growing any plants.

    As you noticed I haven't posted here in a long time. I do not desire to argue with any of you. That is not why I posted any of the information I have spent years collecting. I could have easily let you all fumble around in the dark and kept this information to my self like so many others in this hobby. I never asked for a thank you but it would have been nice.

    I guess I was stupid to think you could merely post factual information to people for no cost with no strings attached and that they would appreciate that information that took so long to compile. My mistake, won't ever happen again.

    There are other ways to achieve true aeroponics without high pressure or air compression If an ultrasonic transducer existed that oscillated at a speed which would produce the necessary droplet size range. Unfortunately for us there is no material that does that. Perhaps in time science will create a new material that is capable of it and then this will become an incredibly easy thing to accomplish.

    There is another way to achieve true aeroponics without high pressure air or water if a material existed that could produce an ultrasonic transducer that oscillates at the proper speed necessary to produce the 5-50 micron droplet size range. Unfortunately for all of us and the world as a whole no such material exists at this time but perhaps in time applied science could create this material.

    Though I also note that I believe I read else somewhere I can't remember that the larger droplets near 50 microns are so heavy they can't project upwards against the force of gravity without external energy. Of course that issue could be eliminated by the use of a significantly powerful water proof fan.

    Perhaps if one of you have some time you can do some research into the maximum size droplet that can float in air without an external force.


    Biological antagonisms due to phytotoxic root exudates
    Frank W. Woods


    Phytotoxic substances in root exudates of cucumber (Cucumis sativus L.)
    Jing Quan Yu, Yoshihisa Matsui


    Phytotoxicity of sorgoleone found in grain Sorghum root exudates
    Frank A. Einhellig, Itamar F. Souza


    Plant root exudates
    Albert D. Rovira


    Effects of Root Exudates of Cucumber (Cucumis sativus) and Allelochemicals on Ion Uptake by Cucumber Seedlings
    Jing Quan Yu, Yoshihisa Matsui
    Mike Young

    Mike Young Well-Known Member

    @foresakenlon You drank the cool_aid. And now you're bustin on people for not knowing the flavor. You're being a dick.

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