H2o2 or the Beneficials

There are many brands of microbes that don't have any kind of sustain element (molasses in your case nrg) and won't do in a chemical environment as they were made for organic nutrient formulas.. Most of these bennies are themselves 100% organic, so yeah, your overpriced Voodoo Juice might work with your other AN products.. it was made for that, but let's not forget the original purpose of these microbes was to break down organic matter, a concept which applies just as much as it does to soil as hydro.

Chemical products have been proven harmful to microbes, yet companies like AN still sell this stuff.. Not downing AN, they're obviously very successful, I'm just not a fan of any chemicals currently however later on my viewpoint might change.

Can you site me an example where the chem base nute lineup is harmful to the microbes other than the bennies simply starving because of the lack of food source? Also, when you are treating slime using tea, aren't you essentially supplying food for the bennies and that is the whole point? So would you not say that using tea is a good preventative measure in a dwc setup as long as you are replenishing every 2-3 days at a "maintenance" dose? In that sense, isn't the tea just like H2O2 and *zyme product?

Heisenberg uses DM base nute which is not organic. In fact, most tea users I know only use chem ferts and introduce carbs only when the setup is safe to do so (after the slime has been treated, or perhaps you never had it in the first place and only doing it as a preventative measure).

Look you can do this: adding organic matter (molasses in your case) to a non organic environment, then add bennies.. but I don't see the point in that when you can just use h202 with chems and not worry about poisoning your bennies with ph chemicals or other harmful chems..

Or you already have the organic matter and you use bennies to break down that matter to feed your plants with. Either way works.. My point is organics and bennies were made for each other, and there's no harmful chemicals in an organic solution that you have to deal with (however chemicals companies do it is unknown to me.. probably "trade secrets" anyway.)

I'm not sure what I said that was false or not grasping the concept of "Heisenberg" teas. 1) He did not invite the tea nor claim to. 2) I don't think you or DB grasp the concept of his use for the earth worm casting tea. 3) I didn't even read that thread until you brought it up, and it completely backs up what I am saying. Heisenberg was giving a control measure of a specific disease in DWC hydroponics. Beneficial bacteria to compete with the slime fungi he was talking about. This specific thread is about which is better h2o2 or beneficial and the answer is neither. If you are not going completely organic, than h2o2 would probably be 'better'. Chemical nutrients are salt based, and have a high acidity content. Bacteria thrive in alkaline environments, so there is one problem with chemical nutes and bennies. You all should do some reading on the subject before you post like that. Using beneficial and chemical nutes can work, just know there is a very fine balance you are throwing off with the addition of salts.

At least everyone's staying civil.. but guys if you don't want to believe me or the jew then don't, because we can't force you to.. but I highly suggest at least further research if you're in disbelief.

VoidObject said:

At least everyone's staying civil.. but guys if you don't want to believe me or the jew then don't, because we can't force you to.. but I highly suggest at least further research if you're in disbelief.

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Imo the point would not be to persuade but to convince. I would be interested in references supporting the claim that bennies and nonorganic nutrients are incompatible.
In the specific case of Heisenberg's tea - it was introduced for a condition for which ordinary chemosterilants (peroxide, Physan) are documented to fail. That condition is root slime from a cyanobacterial infestation. I have had the Dreaded Slime happen to me ... and having an organic (or more precisely biological) strategy to deal with a biological problem seems sound to me ... whether or not the nutrient medium is vegan/organic ... or compounded from lab reagents.

I disagree that chem nutes are inherently acidic, or tend to release acidity. When I grew a hydro crop using strictly deionized water and lab reagents (that grow had no slime, thank goodness), the pH went up and up and up. I used pH-down daily and never has reason to use an alkalizer. I also question bacteria favoring alkaline environments ... ime the living world tends to be neutral or just on the acidic side of neutral. cn

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• I would be interested in references supporting the claim that bennies and nonorganic nutrients are incompatible.​

  
  
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Where is that claim? I don't see it.. they're not optimal, but I've said numerous times that bennies and chems can work.

I have recently made the switch to bennies after 10 years of running a sterile res (using Dutch Master Zone). I am very experienced with my system, lots and lots of huge runs out of it (with more than 1 plant in a res) and had great success.
Last run i got the "Brown Slime", immediate response was of course H2o2, but it made the plants worse, and didn't get rid of the slimy growth.
So i researched and researched and researched, tried ever sterile way i could, ended up killing every1.
Started over, plants started elsewhere, doing great, into clean res's. Slime came back. H202 about killed them again, so i decided it was time for head to head comparisons.
I changed 1 res and made it sterile, the other 2 were innoculated with bennies. Immediate recovery was better in sterile tub, but only for 2 days, then the slime returned.
The other 2 tubs, started making huge gains on the sterile res from there, quickly overtaking them. After 2 weeks of this the difference was soo big, i cleaned and innoculated the final tub, now all are doing great.
I use Dutch Master Nutes, Fully synthetic, with the bennies and huge progress. It is perfectly acceptable to use synthetic nutes with bennies, in fact adding anything organic to the res should be avoided, other than the tea.
Hiesenberg was the one who first published this, after having a very similar experience to mine, and has a whole thread of followers, including me.
Good luck! https://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/361430-dwc-root-slime-cure-aka.html
And i really don't care what any1 thinks about this, it is my personal account of the switch over, and the huge benefits that can be found.

VoidObject said:

[QUOTE

• I would be interested in references supporting the claim that bennies and nonorganic nutrients are incompatible.​

  
  
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Where is that claim? I don't see it.. they're not optimal, but I've said numerous times that bennies and chems can work.[/QUOTE]

Yet from post #21,
"Chemical products have been proven harmful to microbes". Not "some chemical products" and not "some microbes". Are you rescinding or qualifying this? I am not looking for a fight ... but I have to take what my interlocutors write at face value. cn

lol dude never assume I mean all of anything.. obviously some chemical products work with microbes, and obviously some being a sub set of all, I can just say chemical products without the assumption of [all] chemical products being made.

cannabineer said:

Imo the point would not be to persuade but to convince. I would be interested in references supporting the claim that bennies and nonorganic nutrients are incompatible.
In the specific case of Heisenberg's tea - it was introduced for a condition for which ordinary chemosterilants (peroxide, Physan) are documented to fail. That condition is root slime from a cyanobacterial infestation. I have had the Dreaded Slime happen to me ... and having an organic (or more precisely biological) strategy to deal with a biological problem seems sound to me ... whether or not the nutrient medium is vegan/organic ... or compounded from lab reagents.

I disagree that chem nutes are inherently acidic, or tend to release acidity. When I grew a hydro crop using strictly deionized water and lab reagents (that grow had no slime, thank goodness), the pH went up and up and up. I used pH-down daily and never has reason to use an alkalizer. I also question bacteria favoring alkaline environments ... ime the living world tends to be neutral or just on the acidic side of neutral. cn

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Much of the actinobacteria population does thrive in alkaline environments, but not as strongly as I perceived. I do not have a lab or enough lab equipment to test microorganism populations in my soil, and not nearly enough research has been done. As to the chemical nutrients affecting beneficials, it is not the pH as much as the salt, which is the form non-organic nutrients are found in. With this I am kind of back tracking (I learned a decent amount on the subject today), but many bacteria are used specifically in hydro because of the tolerance to high salts. So with beneficial BACTERIA, using non-organic nutrients may be perfectly acceptable. I have found however, that mycorrhizal fungi cannot tolerate high salts, so inoculating with these and using chemical nutrients may not be the smartest thing. As long as the balance of pH and salts and food for the microorganisms is in check, chemical nutrients are not harmful to the beneficials. If anybody has any more good information (with sources), please post to try to clear this subject up. I am not here to praise any one type of growing because they are all different and all have strong and weak points.

VoidObject said:

A lot of organic growers will tell you that microbes are for one thing: breaking down organic material, because that's what they're widely used/bred for in a professional environment (you know, because professionals don't worry about root rot when they have optimal conditions.)

You're lucky I read your trolling comment db, I usually don't, but I don't want people misinformed due to your hate on me.

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Yeah currently the grow is in a basement in 3 tents. all is well in 2 of them. the third not so much. but the conditions are the same in each the water never gets too warm. plenty of ventilation.

jewgrow said:

Yes you can use all the beneficial bacteria/fungi you want. You're just killing them every time you use your chemical nutes....Even just a bit of chlorine in your water will make the beneficial [teas] basically useless. Void Object knows what he is talking about. And I haven't researched it too much, but from what I read h202 doesn't actually KILL anything.

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H2o2 does kill mirco organisms LOL. destroys them by attaching a hostile oxygen molecule to it. spill some on your hand and tell me if it doesn't do some damage. LOL

Your thread a laff a minute brother! haha, good luck.

dbkick said:

Your thread a laff a minute brother! haha, good luck.

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I know WTF. LOL I'm abot to say screw it. H2O2 for the win as far as i'm concerned at this point. Keep finding dead shit at the bottom of the rez every change out wiht the Bennies. So I can say that the chem nutes im using are probly killing them.

I have to say from my own experience only in switching from using h202 to using bene's, rhizotonic and cannazym instead, their is a huge difference in root mass and health than the grow with h202, i never had root rot in h202 but res temps never reached higher than 18c, in benes ive had res temps upto 21c with no root rot either, i will be sticking with the bene's for now because of the root health alone, maybe if i get rot problems i could end up back with h202 again, early days yet. ive only done 1 grow with h202 and im currently doing 2 grows with the bene's

So am i right in thinking i can add molasses to my res to feed bene's directly in my res once ive got the bene's going? i think i remember i read somwhere not to do that but to feed the bene's before you add them to the res in a DWC setup rather than feeding them in the actual res where they will reside?

This beneficial bacteria is interesting stuff to read about however its too easy to read up on it for hours to still be no wiser afterwards, lots of conflicting views either way, all i know is my roots have been loving the changes so far and i wouldnt mind now trying to feed the bacteria to see if the results will improve further still, i would recomend to a friend anytime, i payed £12 for the vitalink basic bene pack (add worm castings if you want to complete the hiesenburg tea requirements) and £6 for a small cannazym to try, as far as im aware the cannazym does a job the bene's actually do themselves after a few weeks to thrive but i liked the idea of adding both for an instant microbial ecosystem type thing going on.

i never tried worm castings or molasses because i havent tried to brew a proper tea yet, i just add the bene's and cannazym to my new res mix at the last minute before i change the res over, i do this because i think i read if the benes arent in oxygenated water they die or somthing

Maybe this will help someone, i dont really have a clue what im doing myself but i know it improved my root health2 fold if not more making the switch myself so maybe bene's will help others, just for the record i use GH flora series aswell not organic feed.

kilo810 said:

H2o2 does kill mirco organisms LOL. destroys them by attaching a hostile oxygen molecule to it. spill some on your hand and tell me if it doesn't do some damage. LOL

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Sorry, I phrased that completely wrong. It kills anaerobic microorganisms, but not the beneficial aerobic ones. And the reason h2o2 bubbles is a reaction with catalase. I'm not sure what you are going for with the peroxide/beneficials but you know you know your setup and have both sides of it, so good luck!

Jewgrow,
lets give you the benefit of the doubt and I never even mentioned the term "Heisenberg". And we already know the answer to the OP's post is "neither", and I agree. Going back to chemical ferts though, you are totally right in saying that any extreme acidity or alkalinity will kill just about any organism. But that to me is more common sense, as you don't even need to be in this hobby to know that. What I am wanting to know, and perhaps I can pick up a few things from the "sterile" guys on this forum, is that I have yet to see a chem based base nute that kills the bennies as you would put it. I mean, who the hell dumps chem fert directly into the res and create a hotspot for the bennies to die? That to me is also common sense. So, if most everybody that uses chem base nute premix in water before dumping into res, I fail to see how the bennies would be affected by the PH in the hydro range (lets say 5.3 to 6.4). But again, I am only after what I don't know already and not trying to argue, so I am all ears at this point if you can kindly direct me to some studies that show what you are saying about the chem ferts.

jewgrow said:

I'm not sure what I said that was false or not grasping the concept of "Heisenberg" teas. 1) He did not invite the tea nor claim to. 2) I don't think you or DB grasp the concept of his use for the earth worm casting tea. 3) I didn't even read that thread until you brought it up, and it completely backs up what I am saying. Heisenberg was giving a control measure of a specific disease in DWC hydroponics. Beneficial bacteria to compete with the slime fungi he was talking about. This specific thread is about which is better h2o2 or beneficial and the answer is neither. If you are not going completely organic, than h2o2 would probably be 'better'. Chemical nutrients are salt based, and have a high acidity content. Bacteria thrive in alkaline environments, so there is one problem with chemical nutes and bennies. You all should do some reading on the subject before you post like that. Using beneficial and chemical nutes can work, just know there is a very fine balance you are throwing off with the addition of salts.

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nrgpill said:

I think perhaps VO and Jewgrow have the right intent but perhaps not understanding all the "Heisenberg" tea users who only use chem ferts. The idea behind it is to simply not feed the slime more by using organics and then inoculate the root using the tea soonafter you have cleaned off the slime. The carbs (or organics for that matter) is fed during the tea brewing process in order to propagate the bennies by feeding them (unsulphered molasses in my case). When you dump the tea into a dwc res, you should not have any organics or carbs present until the symptoms you are trying to treat has largely been subsided. Once the bennies have been fully inoculated in a dwc setup, you can start to introduce organics and carb based additives that the bennies feed on, and the bennies will simply outnumber the little bit of slime present in the res at that point, so you are good moving forward.

Having said that, the tea you dump into the res is only good for a short while without a food source. That is why the "Heisenberg" method calls for continuous feeding of the tea (2-3 times a week) so a new army of bennies can be introduced after a couple days of inoculating and dying off.

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This is where I got the "heisenberg" term from, I wasn't aware of it until this post. Either way, after all the reading I've done, it is nowhere near conclusive that chemical nutrients will inherently kill microorganisms. I also think there is a bit of confusion on the soil/hydro issue, at least on my part. I grow in soil. Chemical nutrients have a longer residue effect and may be worse in a soil environment, compared to a completely controlled hydroponic environment. Like I said there is a balance that needs to be kept with soil microorganisms, and as long as that is kept, I'm sure chemical nutrients will not harm the beneficials. There is nowhere near enough information on the subject, at least that can be easily pulled up on the internet, none of us are experts on the subject.