Does anyone want to receive Spiritual Enlightenment?

The Jahovas Witness' always start their speel with "God has a name, and his name is Jahova, and it is very important that we know his name", I always feel like saying, oh really, why is that important, if you were to call a rose by any other name would it not still be a rose, but they come to you with a smile on their face, they let you know that they are very passionate about their beliefs, they are only trying to do good in this world, and I can not think of anything more Enlightened than that.

New Age United said:

Here is a very deep Truth from Gautama the Buddha, "One has not attained Enlightenment until they realize that everything is an illusion", but if the illusion is Paradise, that is plenty good enough for me, these words are only pointers to a much deeper Truth, "The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon" Buddhism, when asked what is Enlightenment, all Siddhartha could reply is, "the end of suffering". It is a simulatation, but it is the only Reality, a very deep Paradox, calculated to perfection, the entire universe is just Space bending in on itself and creating the illusion of Time(form, Energy, motion).

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[video=youtube;CwPWDMvT21E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwPWDMvT21E[/video]

Don't concentrate on the finga, or you wiw miss all dat heavanry grory...

New Age United said:

Here is a very deep Truth from Gautama the Buddha, "One has not attained Enlightenment until they realize that everything is an illusion", but if the illusion is Paradise, that is plenty good enough for me, these words are only pointers to a much deeper Truth, "The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon" Buddhism, when asked what is Enlightenment, all Siddhartha could reply is, "the end of suffering". It is a simulatation, but it is the only Reality, a very deep Paradox, calculated to perfection, the entire universe is just Space bending in on itself and creating the illusion of Time(form, Energy, motion).

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You sound like an alcoholic trying to rationalize his drinking to an AA group.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
- Carl Sagan

[video=youtube_share;Z7BuQFUhsRM]http://youtu.be/Z7BuQFUhsRM[/video]
"Whatever you want, Mr. Reagan..."

I do not believe it because it is comforting, not at all, it is Intuitive,

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Is it not ironic... that whomever i talk to who confirms that their intuition about their supernatural beliefs is correct, it is EXACTLY what they want and EXACTLY what makes them feel good and gives them comfort? Never in my life have i ever heard anyone exclaim that their intuitive supernatural beliefs are something that they don't want, or makes them fearful or uncomfortable.

there are so many possibilities that you can not possibly be certain of what is true, but deep down we Know what is Truth,

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In the same sentence you assert that we cannot be certain of what is true, yet claim deep down we know what is truth. That seems to me that you are saying "deep down, the truth is... that we don't know the truth" which seems very reasonable and honest to me.

just as we know that the book will fall, so too do we know what is True and what is False,

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There is quite a difference between knowing how the laws of nature will react to matter within this reality, and pretending to know whether or not our supernatural ideas are true.

the thing is we like to defeat our Intuition with what we want to be true.

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Like i said before, isn't it ironic that our intuition about supernatural beliefs is always what we want to be true, never what we fear?

It is admirable, and I have seen this in many people, and that is the freedom of choice, but I must add that I do not want to hold my opinions as Truth, they are most certainly uncertain.

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It takes courage to admit to ourselves and others that we aren't certain if our supernatural beliefs are true. I admire that a lot.

^^ That's a great point, Zaehet. It seems to always be the case that those that hold supernatural beliefs choose the ones that they like or the ones that comfort them. Similarly, people are convinced that the religion they believe is true just happens to be the one in which they were raised. Funny how that works. Now, if just once someone held supernatural beliefs that they didn't like or made them uncomfortable, or a born christian was convinced that muhammed was right and islam is the true faith, I'd sit up and take more notice of what they had to say...

Beefbisquit said:

You sound like an alcoholic trying to rationalize his drinking to an AA group.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
- Carl Sagan

[video=youtube_share;Z7BuQFUhsRM]http://youtu.be/Z7BuQFUhsRM[/video]
"Whatever you want, Mr. Reagan..."

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It makes a good point though, why would you not enjoy the meal, when you eat a meal do you actually think to yourself, this is an illusion, I am not actually enjoying the meal it is just an illusion, I can not enjoy this meal bc I know it is just an illusion, you sound like a nihilist, and I respect that if you are there's nothing wrong with that at all, but I will not live my life like that, I always wonder, what is the point in living if there is no point, if there was no point in living I would not live. Lol!!!!! Now that you say that it actually does sound like an acaholic trying to make excuses that's hilarious.

Zaehet Strife said:

Is it not ironic... that whomever i talk to who confirms that their intuition about their supernatural beliefs is correct, it is EXACTLY what they want and EXACTLY what makes them feel good and gives them comfort? Never in my life have i ever heard anyone exclaim that their intuitive supernatural beliefs are something that they don't want, or makes them fearful or uncomfortable.

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Whoever you talk to who confirms their intuition on supernatural beliefs does not realize what intuition is, the direct perception of Truth, a Supreme Being is not Intuitive.

Zaehet Strife said:

In the same sentence you assert that we cannot be certain of what is true, yet claim deep down we know what is truth. That seems to me that you are saying "deep down, the truth is... that we don't know the truth" which seems very reasonable and honest to me.

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I can not possibly prove that you are Aware, it is a possibility that I am the only Aware being in the universe, but I "know" that you are, I just know, I would not even be able to function without that "Knowing". Intuition happens so fast and naturally that you are not even Aware of it.

Zaehet Strife said:

There is quite a difference between knowing how the laws of nature will react to matter within this reality, and pretending to know whether or not our supernatural ideas are true.

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There is nothing supernatural about Enlightenment, it is quite natural, there is something very unnatural about viewing the universe as a lifeless machine, and it is quite the illusion that logic has played on you, you are imagining the workings of the universe but you are not actually Aware of the universe as it truly exists, you can not possibly think about the universe as it truly exists, you can only be Aware of it right Now.

Zaehet Strife said:

Like i said before, isn't it ironic that our intuition about supernatural beliefs is always what we want to be true, never what we fear?

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You miss understood, there is no Intuition about the supernatural, supernatural comes from wishful thinking, people defeat their Intuition(What they know is Truth) with what they want to believe, just as you know damn well what I am saying about the Earth being Paradise, you want to dismiss my opinion as being supernatural, even though it is nature itself that I am speaking of.

Zaehet Strife said:

It takes courage to admit to ourselves and others that we aren't certain if our supernatural beliefs are true. I admire that a lot.

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Keep in mind that I was not refering to myself when I said it is admirable, I was referring to others I have met, I have absolutely no interest in admiration, but yes it is admirable in those people who possess that quality.

tyler.durden said:

^^ That's a great point, Zaehet. It seems to always be the case that those that hold supernatural beliefs choose the ones that they like or the ones that comfort them. Similarly, people are convinced that the religion they believe is true just happens to be the one in which they were raised. Funny how that works. Now, if just once someone held supernatural beliefs that they didn't like or made them uncomfortable, or a born christian was convinced that muhammed was right and islam is the true faith, I'd sit up and take more notice of what they had to say...

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One thing I can not agree with, the Abrahamic religions do not always hold beliefs that are comforting, how is Armageddon comforting, how is God judging you and casting you into hell comforting. My parents were both Catholic but chose not to raise me religious, they did not want to force it on me, however I did have faith in Jesus and God throughout my childhood, I looked at it as an absolute truth, I read the Quran and saw the Truth in those words, and realized that Allah is not a supreme being at all, and that Paradise was the Earth itself, Shatan is the energy that causes evil, I read the Bible again and it made a lot more sense.
But seriously people I have no interest in convincing you of things that you do not want to be convinced of, I know many Christians and I do not speak to them about this stuff, I respect their beliefs so long as they do not use them against people.

Whoever you talk to who confirms their intuition on supernatural beliefs does not realize what intuition is, the direct perception of Truth, a Supreme Being is not Intuitive.

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Do you realize that intuition is merely a thing that one knows or considers likely from instinctive feeling rather than conscious reasoning. And the difference between your intuition of what your belief of reality is to the intuition of someones belief in the doctrine of christianity...is nothing, there is no difference. The only difference is that you go with what you have been taught, what you have learned within the boundaries of your environment and within the society you were raised in, what feels the best to you and what you like the most... the same goes for everyone else.

I can not possibly prove that you are Aware, it is a possibility that I am the only Aware being in the universe, but I "know" that you are, I just know, I would not even be able to function without that "Knowing". Intuition happens so fast and naturally that you are not even Aware of it.

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This reminds me of something that happened to my little brother and i about a year ago. I'll try to make this short. My little brother and i were upstairs in his bedroom late at night, we had been chilling all day, completely sober as well. I was sitting on the bed and he was sitting on his computer chair, we had been talking for an hour or so when we just stopped talking for some reason, not suddenly... it was just after we had completed a conversation and just hadn't started another one up again. We were both staring in each others eyes when suddenly something happened.

A feeling started to take over my body, and i knew what it was almost as soon as it started but i didn't even think about it, i couldn't really think at all because it was so intense. It felt exactly like what it feels like when you are in a dream, and all of the sudden something happens and you realize you are dreaming within the dream. The ultimate WOW, and ultimate rush and realization. My eyes never left his, and his never left mine. Then as the feeling became more and more intense we both started to cry, though it wasn't a sobbing cry, it was just that our eyes started crying by themselves as tears ran down our cheeks. Everything in the room that i could perceive with my peripheral vision was moving like visuals do when you have a hard trip on mushrooms or acid, objects going in and out of focus, moving up and down, forward and backward ever so slowly...

The feeling became so intense i couldn't take it anymore so i came up with my first thought, the one that was in the back of my mind the whole time but wouldn't surface, i managed to lean forward and i said in a concerned voice "Drake... is this a dream???" He didnt say anything, he was still just staring at me, so i said again "dude Drake is this a fucking dream???" he seemed to snap out of it with a slight shake of his head and stuttered "Z...Zac, i don't know..." As we slowly both came out of it, the feeling left slowly as well leaving both our hands shaking and wiping the tears from our faces.

We talked about it for hours, making sure we experienced the same feelings in the same ways, as i taught Drake how to lucid dream 2 years prior to the event he could empathize with the feelings of awakening within a dream. We shared our ideas on what we thought this "spiritual" experience may be, and we came up with a conclusion...

But as the days passed, i couldn't get it off of my mind, i couldn't stop thinking about it and how we both gave meaning to the experience. As weeks passed one day i had an epiphany, i realized what i was doing.

I was attempting to give my own subjective meaning to an experience i had that i didn't understand. That is exactly what i was doing. I realized that giving my own meaning to this experience did not make that the truth about what it was. That my conclusion may be wrong, that it could be something completely different than what i thought it was. What happened is that i had an unexplainable experience, and if i am honest with myself... i don't really know what happened that night and i never will. The only way i can give myself an idea of what happened, is to make it up... but i can't live my life on pretend ideas when i know deep down that i don't know what really happened that night, that would just be too easy. I don't know what happened and that is the truth of the matter, and no matter how hard i try to give meaning to that experience it won't mean anything at all, because i would know that I'd just be pretending i knew what happened.

And i am oh so tired, so tired of pretending...

New Age United said:

One thing I can not agree with, the Abrahamic religions do not always hold beliefs that are comforting, how is Armageddon comforting, how is God judging you and casting you into hell comforting. My parents were both Catholic but chose not to raise me religious, they did not want to force it on me, however I did have faith in Jesus and God throughout my childhood, I looked at it as an absolute truth, I read the Quran and saw the Truth in those words, and realized that Allah is not a supreme being at all, and that Paradise was the Earth itself, Shatan is the energy that causes evil, I read the Bible again and it made a lot more sense.
But seriously people I have no interest in convincing you of things that you do not want to be convinced of, I know many Christians and I do not speak to them about this stuff, I respect their beliefs so long as they do not use them against people.

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This is a great point, that not all of the Abrahamic religions beliefs are comforting. As a child, my best friend used to get very frightened during thunderstorms, and he would imagine the end of the world was at hand (he was brought up evangelical christian), so he would call loved ones to see if they were still on Earth or were they taken in the rapture. A kid of six worrying about this shit is child abuse. Part of the dogma may cause unease, but over all they take great comfort in the overall belief that they are part of the 'saved' and 'chosen', and doing A will get you B. They delude themselves that they have the answers to life and beyond, and that is very comforting. Believe me, I used to be right there with them...

It is a comforting feeling to have answers replace confusion or ignorance even if those answers suggest uncomfortable realities. Those that believe the apocalypse is coming are still comforted by the idea that God himself warned them. The whole idea behind Christianity is to offer a safe way through. The concept of being saved actually becomes more comforting if the alternative is eternal torment.

You talk about seeking the truth, yet you'll willfully wallow in an illusion as long as you're happy.

What does your intuition tell you about seeking the truth inside a lie?

Zaehet Strife said:

This reminds me of something that happened to my little brother and i about a year ago. I'll try to make this short. My little brother and i were upstairs in his bedroom late at night, we had been chilling all day, completely sober as well. I was sitting on the bed and he was sitting on his computer chair, we had been talking for an hour or so when we just stopped talking for some reason, not suddenly... it was just after we had completed a conversation and just hadn't started another one up again. We were both staring in each others eyes when suddenly something happened.

A feeling started to take over my body, and i knew what it was almost as soon as it started but i didn't even think about it, i couldn't really think at all because it was so intense. It felt exactly like what it feels like when you are in a dream, and all of the sudden something happens and you realize you are dreaming within the dream. The ultimate WOW, and ultimate rush and realization. My eyes never left his, and his never left mine. Then as the feeling became more and more intense we both started to cry, though it wasn't a sobbing cry, it was just that our eyes started crying by themselves as tears ran down our cheeks. Everything in the room that i could perceive with my peripheral vision was moving like visuals do when you have a hard trip on mushrooms or acid, objects going in and out of focus, moving up and down, forward and backward ever so slowly...

The feeling became so intense i couldn't take it anymore so i came up with my first thought, the one that was in the back of my mind the whole time but wouldn't surface, i managed to lean forward and i said in a concerned voice "Drake... is this a dream???" He didnt say anything, he was still just staring at me, so i said again "dude Drake is this a fucking dream???" he seemed to snap out of it with a slight shake of his head and stuttered "Z...Zac, i don't know..." As we slowly both came out of it, the feeling left slowly as well leaving both our hands shaking and wiping the tears from our faces.

We talked about it for hours, making sure we experienced the same feelings in the same ways, as i taught Drake how to lucid dream 2 years prior to the event he could empathize with the feelings of awakening within a dream. We shared our ideas on what we thought this "spiritual" experience may be, and we came up with a conclusion...

But as the days passed, i couldn't get it off of my mind, i couldn't stop thinking about it and how we both gave meaning to the experience. As weeks passed one day i had an epiphany, i realized what i was doing.

I was attempting to give my own subjective meaning to an experience i had that i didn't understand. That is exactly what i was doing. I realized that giving my own meaning to this experience did not make that the truth about what it was. That my conclusion may be wrong, that it could be something completely different than what i thought it was. What happened is that i had an unexplainable experience, and if i am honest with myself... i don't really know what happened that night and i never will. The only way i can give myself an idea of what happened, is to make it up... but i can't live my life on pretend ideas when i know deep down that i don't know what really happened that night, that would just be too easy. I don't know what happened and that is the truth of the matter, and no matter how hard i try to give meaning to that experience it won't mean anything at all, because i would know that I'd just be pretending i knew what happened.

And i am oh so tired, so tired of pretending...

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I shared this with my little brother last night and asked him if there was anything he would like to add, or that i may have missed. This was his reply.

"It's fine man, no worries. Definitely an experience worth sharing. Except for me, it felt like the moment shattered the instant we dropped eye contact, although there was a "coming down" period of about a minute or so. That moment certainly made me question the authenticity of waking life as being considered "real life." As I've come to think, the biggest difference between waking life and dreams is that the plot is more consistent, the experience lasts longer, and physics have more domain. Other than that, dreams are just as real to me as waking life, which is a more descriptive term than "real life" in my opinion."

...just read a few posts here re: intuition. Something done intuitively is something that is natural to a person. For example: someone who excels in something completely naturally is said to do so intuitively.

...munch-munch

Zaehet Strife said:

Do you realize that intuition is merely a thing that one knows or considers likely from instinctive feeling rather than conscious reasoning. And the difference between your intuition of what your belief of reality is to the intuition of someones belief in the doctrine of christianity...is nothing, there is no difference. The only difference is that you go with what you have been taught, what you have learned within the boundaries of your environment and within the society you were raised in, what feels the best to you and what you like the most... the same goes for everyone else.

And i am oh so tired, so tired of pretending...

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Zaehet Strife, please, let me reason with you. You have absolutely no idea what Intuition really is, I'm sorry but you don't, you just don't. It is not probability, it only appears that way to someone who doesn't trust their Intuition, why do you think Stephen Hawkings bases his entire lifes work off of The Theory of Relativity, because he can clearly see that it is Truth, even though it is just a "theory" to the rest of the world, something that remains unproven, he Knows that it is Truth, because he trusts his Intuition, he can see the Truth, he perceives the Truth directly, Intuition, Genius. He does not waste time in his mind chasing this logic or that logic, he "Knows" what is Truth, just as you do, you just don't trust it. Everything else in this post tells me that you are taken by your thoughts and emotions very seriously. If you Truly want to stop pretending, you are absolutely free to talk to me, let down your gaurd, just surrender, give up, I will help you find the Truth, I'm being completely serious with you, it is no problem at all. I am not trying to embarass you at all, seriously if you want to learn Enlightenment, all you have to do is read these words slowly, and pay very close Attention to what I am saying. Read this thread again and pay Attention to what I am saying about Intuition.

tyler.durden said:

This is a great point, that not all of the Abrahamic religions beliefs are comforting. As a child, my best friend used to get very frightened during thunderstorms, and he would imagine the end of the world was at hand (he was brought up evangelical christian), so he would call loved ones to see if they were still on Earth or were they taken in the rapture. A kid of six worrying about this shit is child abuse. Part of the dogma may cause unease, but over all they take great comfort in the overall belief that they are part of the 'saved' and 'chosen', and doing A will get you B. They delude themselves that they have the answers to life and beyond, and that is very comforting. Believe me, I used to be right there with them...

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I used to be right there aswell, and I understand exactly what you are saying, they feel like having faith is enough to save them from the rapture and that anyone who doesn't have faith is damned, this is what I mean by using their beliefs agains others.

Heisenberg said:

It is a comforting feeling to have answers replace confusion or ignorance even if those answers suggest uncomfortable realities. Those that believe the apocalypse is coming are still comforted by the idea that God himself warned them. The whole idea behind Christianity is to offer a safe way through. The concept of being saved actually becomes more comforting if the alternative is eternal torment.

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Spiritual Intuition, you are reading the Soul, the Heart of people, we are all good at that, we just have to trust it. You nailed it right on the head.

Beefbisquit said:

You talk about seeking the truth, yet you'll willfully wallow in an illusion as long as you're happy.

What does your intuition tell you about seeking the truth inside a lie?

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You think too much, this is a Paradox, and I understand your position, a truth inside a lie, but when the lie falls down all that remains is the Truth. Stop thinking, logic has you trapped inside a dream, a dream within a dream. "To be or not to be, that is the question" "Perchance to dream", that is the answer, but not to dream of things that may never come, but simply to be Alive.

The lie is logic, the Truth is what remains when you stop thinking. This may be impossible for a Nihilist.

Zaehet Strife said:

I shared this with my little brother last night and asked him if there was anything he would like to add, or that i may have missed. This was his reply.

"It's fine man, no worries. Definitely an experience worth sharing. Except for me, it felt like the moment shattered the instant we dropped eye contact, although there was a "coming down" period of about a minute or so. That moment certainly made me question the authenticity of waking life as being considered "real life." As I've come to think, the biggest difference between waking life and dreams is that the plot is more consistent, the experience lasts longer, and physics have more domain. Other than that, dreams are just as real to me as waking life, which is a more descriptive term than "real life" in my opinion."

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I am sorry Zaehet, I honestly don't mean to intrude on the experience you had with your brother, that may have been a very deep connection that you had and I can respect that to the fullest, don't let anyone take that away from you, that is between you and him.

New Age United said:

You think too much, this is a Paradox, and I understand your position, a truth inside a lie, but when the lie falls down all that remains is the Truth. Stop thinking, logic has you trapped inside a dream, a dream within a dream. "To be or not to be, that is the question" "Perchance to dream", that is the answer, but not to dream of things that may never come, but simply to be Alive.

The lie is logic, the Truth is what remains when you stop thinking. This may be impossible for a Nihilist.

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You would have to prove to me with 100% certainty, that your intuition is accurate 100% of the time.

You are unable to do this, so your intuition is not 100% accurate, therefore it's not the truth as 'the truth' is true, all the time.