Do lumens really matter? Do they add up? Lighting experts apply within

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Good morning bongsmilie

So, this whole thing about lumens really confuses the crap out of me and I'm hoping someone can either explain or point me to some reading material that breaks it down in terms I can understand. Keep in mind that it's been more than 10 years since I've set foot in a math or science class :shock:

Now, as I understand it, lumens don't really mean anything when it comes to how plants use light. Lumens are a measurement of light that's visible to humans, right? And somehow you have to convert that to something called PAR (what the crap does that stand for?), which is like, the amount of light available to aid in photosynthesis??? Basically, PAR is how much light the plants can "see" and use, right?

But I'm assuming that generally, more lumens = more usable light?

I've also heard that lumens don't add up?

So if you're using 26W CFL @ 1750 lumens it doesn't matter how many you use, you're still only getting 1750 lumens?

It makes sense to me that a bulb I'm using on one plant at the end of the row isn't going to benefit a plant at the other end of the row...but the T5 floro 52Wx4 fixtures I see are advertised as putting out 20,000 lumens (each bulb @ 5,000 lumens).

I'm so confused.

Anyone want to shed some wisdom on this subject for me?
 

sogalax

Well-Known Member
i have heard that lumens dont add up in terms of a bunch of cfls or even LEDS. wile this makes sense i also have a little voice in the back of my head that says two bulbs is twice they amount of light.

soooo i cant help but ill give ya a bump cuz i wana know too!!
 

smppro

Well-Known Member
They add regardless of what people say, a handful of cfls will have more lumens concentrated in one spot than just 1 cfl alone
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Thanks, I guess it's the weekend and nobody wants to think too hard.

The voice in the back of my head tells me the same thing, and I've seen some CFL grows using lots of low watt bulbs to surround the plant with light and they seem to be pretty successful.

Hopefully someone will come along soon and make sense of this.
 

SHAWTYBANGBANG

Well-Known Member
Plants "see" light differently than human beings do. As a result, lumens, lux or footcandles should not be used to measure light for plant growth since they are measures used for human visibility. More correct measures for plants are PAR watts, PPF PAR and YPF PAR, although each in itself does not tell the whole story. In addition to quantity of light, considerations of quality are important, since plants use energy in different parts of the spectrum for critical processes. http://www.sunmastergrowlamps.com/SunmLightandPlants.html
 

TLeom

Active Member
I think you are swapping lumens for kelvins. You cna add up the lumens but not the kelvins
 

BigBudBalls

Well-Known Member
They do and they don't

Light diminishes further it travels.

Adding lights only gives you full power further away.

If I light one candle I get 400F If I light 10 I don't get 4000F.
(the heat from the candle *IS* light, infrared)
 

s0high

Well-Known Member
If you guess actually want to get down to how plants use light you must look into something called umol. It is a special formula that you can never expect to understand that takes most aspects of a plant to figure it maximum amount of usable light.

There is much research that needs to be done on weed before we know what its umol is. If you want to learn about how umol works then look up how much light is required for lettuce to grow. I warn you, its like the red of blue pill in the matrix. Itll fuck yo mind up.
 

mj320002

Well-Known Member
Lumens don't add. The reason the t-5 setups your looking at say 20,000 lumens at 5,000 lumens per bulb is because the 5,000 lumens is spread out over a larger area. If you took those four bulbs and put them next to each other it wouldn't make the area directly below any brighter. Multiple bulbs allows you to cover a larger area more effectively. If you want brighter light though you will need more powerful bulbs or better reflectors.

I think this principal applies to PAR as well but I'm not entirely sure.


If you guess actually want to get down to how plants use light you must look into something called umol. It is a special formula that you can never expect to understand that takes most aspects of a plant to figure it maximum amount of usable light.

There is much research that needs to be done on weed before we know what its umol is. If you want to learn about how umol works then look up how much light is required for lettuce to grow. I warn you, its like the red of blue pill in the matrix. Itll fuck yo mind up.
 

T.H.Cammo

Well-Known Member
Don't you just love it!

Of the six, definitive, "Limiting Factors" light is (without a doubt) the most complicated and hardest to understand. I think that's why most people just "accept" a few "basics" and pretend to understand the rest. Yes, what you heard is true - "Lumens are for Humans" and they're a piss poor measurement for a grow light. However - - - -

Lumens measure the appearant brightness of a light source as percieved by the human eye. Our eyes are most sensitive to green light, so the green portion of the light spectrum produces a high ratio of "lumens". The problem with lumens is that plants, in general, don't absorb green light they reflect it - thats why they're green in appearance. Plants actually use more red light and blue light, which both produce a lower ratio of lumens. Now we get to PAR light:

In the "Illumination" business lumens are important because they can indicate how bright a lamp is (even though it puts a premium on green light). PAR stands for "Photosynthetically Active Radiation, it is only interrested in those parts of the light spectrum that a plant actually uses. So, basically, you can think of green light as non-PAR light - as opposed to LED grow lights which are virtually 100% PAR lights!

Like BigBudBalls said "They do and they don't" (add up).
"They do" in the sense that 2 identicle lights will allow you to grow twice as big of an area.
"They don't" in the sense that 2 identicle lights wont produce twice the intensity, they will just give you "more of the same". Think of it this way - if you have a quart of water @ 106 degrees f. and you add another quart @ 106 degrees f., you don't end up with boiling water! You just end up with twice as much water at the same 106 degree f. temperature (intensity). OK?

Big Bud Balls also said "Light diminishes further it travels". This can't be stressed enough!!! Most growers (well, at least, some growers) generalize this to mean "Keep the light "close" to the plants, if you can, sort of". The harsh reality is "The Inverse Square Law (of light)", this is pure Psysics and it's right out of the book, it goes something like this: As the distance between the light source and the plant doubles, the energy of that light is reduced by a factor of 4 (double the distance equals one fourth the light energy!). Think about that for a moment! That is a huge drop in the amount of light your plants will receive because the formula starts at a rediculousely small distance.
 

potsticker

Active Member
The lumens add they just don't add perfectly. More lights close together will increase the light directly below any of them - as opposed to only having one light. However as light diminishes you won't have the same penetrating power as mj320002 pointed out but you will hit the top buds from more angles with more light.
 

smppro

Well-Known Member
Lumens don't add. The reason the t-5 setups your looking at say 20,000 lumens at 5,000 lumens per bulb is because the 5,000 lumens is spread out over a larger area. If you took those four bulbs and put them next to each other it wouldn't make the area directly below any brighter. Multiple bulbs allows you to cover a larger area more effectively. If you want brighter light though you will need more powerful bulbs or better reflectors.

I think this principal applies to PAR as well but I'm not entirely sure.
sorry there is a thread on here of somebody comparing the light directly under 1 cfl vs 3 with a light meter and the 3 made it more intense
 

BigBudBalls

Well-Known Member
The lumens add they just don't add perfectly. More lights close together will increase the light directly below any of them - as opposed to only having one light. However as light diminishes you won't have the same penetrating power as mj320002 pointed out but you will hit the top buds from more angles.
If using all 2000 lumen lights, no matter how many you add, you will never pass 2000. (adding in a mountain of them light may cause the temp to go up enough to effect the sensor giving inaccurate readings.)

ceestyle did a whole thing on this (its a stickie) but never proved exceeding the base lumen value.

You have volume and force. Adding more lights in parallel is adding more volume, not force (in series would add force)
Intensity would = force.
 

BigBudBalls

Well-Known Member
sorry there is a thread on here of somebody comparing the light directly under 1 cfl vs 3 with a light meter and the 3 made it more intense
Yea ceestyle, but never showed *over* base lumens. (it was just getting more of the 'lost' lumens further away.

Al B . Fuct Also did it. 1 vs 2 and no change.

Diff in the testing is that Cee had the meter a foot or so away, Al B had it right up at the source.
 

smppro

Well-Known Member
Ok i wont argue, how come nobody has figured out the smallest amount of lumens spread over an area to achieve nice bud, i can personally say that only 2600 lumens spread out will grow nice sized dense buds.
 

TeaTreeOil

Well-Known Member
Lumens don't add. The reason the t-5 setups your looking at say 20,000 lumens at 5,000 lumens per bulb is because the 5,000 lumens is spread out over a larger area. If you took those four bulbs and put them next to each other it wouldn't make the area directly below any brighter. Multiple bulbs allows you to cover a larger area more effectively. If you want brighter light though you will need more powerful bulbs or better reflectors.

I think this principal applies to PAR as well but I'm not entirely sure.
This is wrong. And really, it's a glaringly obvious contradiction. How will a reflector improve anything but more light emitting sources themselves won't? Ugh!

Don't you just love it!

Of the six, definitive, "Limiting Factors" light is (without a doubt) the most complicated and hardest to understand. I think that's why most people just "accept" a few "basics" and pretend to understand the rest. Yes, what you heard is true - "Lumens are for Humans" and they're a piss poor measurement for a grow light. However - - - -

Lumens measure the appearant brightness of a light source as percieved by the human eye. Our eyes are most sensitive to green light, so the green portion of the light spectrum produces a high ratio of "lumens". The problem with lumens is that plants, in general, don't absorb green light they reflect it - thats why they're green in appearance. Plants actually use more red light and blue light, which both produce a lower ratio of lumens. Now we get to PAR light:

In the "Illumination" business lumens are important because they can indicate how bright a lamp is (even though it puts a premium on green light). PAR stands for "Photosynthetically Active Radiation, it is only interrested in those parts of the light spectrum that a plant actually uses. So, basically, you can think of green light as non-PAR light - as opposed to LED grow lights which are virtually 100% PAR lights!

Like BigBudBalls said "They do and they don't" (add up).
"They do" in the sense that 2 identicle lights will allow you to grow twice as big of an area.

And now for some nonsense:

"They don't" in the sense that 2 identicle lights wont produce twice the intensity, they will just give you "more of the same". Think of it this way - if you have a quart of water @ 106 degrees f. and you add another quart @ 106 degrees f., you don't end up with boiling water! You just end up with twice as much water at the same 106 degree f. temperature (intensity). OK?

That analogy is horrible, and does not make any damn sense! Intensity can very well increase, but adding another bulb is not going to magically make the original bulb brighter.

Big Bud Balls also said "Light diminishes further it travels". This can't be stressed enough!!! Most growers (well, at least, some growers) generalize this to mean "Keep the light "close" to the plants, if you can, sort of". The harsh reality is "The Inverse Square Law (of light)", this is pure Psysics and it's right out of the book, it goes something like this: As the distance between the light source and the plant doubles, the energy of that light is reduced by a factor of 4 (double the distance equals one fourth the light energy!). Think about that for a moment! That is a huge drop in the amount of light your plants will receive because the formula starts at a rediculousely small distance.
He was doing so well.... Sigh. But apparently he thinks(according to the analogy about water temperature) that adding more bulbs won't increase heat what so ever? Shocking! it's a bad analogy anyway -moving on.

Lumens do add. That's what's called total lumens. Lumen output is a measure of a bulb. A bulb is the same amount of lumens whether next to another bulb, or it's on another planet all by itself :neutral:. Distance doesn't mean anything, more or less bulbs don't change this. A bulb's lumen rating is the bulb's lumen rating no matter what.

Lux, lumens per sq meter, will change depending on how many bulbs are used. This is obvious. If you take multiple flash lights, shine them into one spot, it's obviously a brighter spot than one of them alone. Does this make any of the flash lights brighter? Of course not! Take a mirror or something else highly reflective, shine your room's light(I assume your room has a light bulb, otherwise use the sun) rays onto the wall, there's a brighter spot, and it moves around the room according to the angle of the reflective material relative to the light source. Ever burn something with a magnifying glass? Again, focusing light, MULTIPLYING it several fold.

Ok, we've proven light can be additive/multiplicative. Moving on...

We're talking about WHERE LIGHT IS STRIKING, not WHERE LIGHT IS COMING FROM. Does the magnifying glass make the sun magically brighter? No, it does no, only SELECT STRIKING rays emanating from it(that hit the magnifying glass, of course!) -not the sun itself. Where multiple sources are all STRIKING becomes brighter, it doesn't 'travel backwards' to the source and magically make the source brighter -that's ridiculous! But this is apparently the argument used to claim light is not additive.

Lux is a more complex notion than lumens. But basically, two equal light sources, equidistant from the striking point(and equal/opposite incident angles) your lux would double. Does this make either of the bulbs brighter? No, of course not -ridiculous. Because at 1 foot away, the bulb is already 16 times less intense than it is at 3 inches(approximately). And at 3 inches it's 16 times less intense than it'll be at 0.75 inches(approximately). However, having two bulbs, equidistant and equiangular from these 'test points', these measurements would be very near doubled(especially the further away).

Most bulbs aren't considered true point sources, so the mileage will vary. Moving on.

Nothing is going to make the bulb any brighter. It's not a matter of WHERE LIGHT IS COMING FROM, but WHERE LIGHT IS GOING TO. Are two fluorescent tubes capable of twice the lux? Yes! But not at 1 millimeter away! That's the peak lux zone of the bulb. No amount of bulbs are going to produce a lux beyond that of the bulb itself(measured at the surface of the bulb)! Of course this doesn't matter, do your lights touch the plants? Of course not! Or at least probably not. And by the time it travels from .075 inch to 1 foot, it's now 16*16 times(that's 256 times) less intense, anyways. But with two bulbs, that could be nearly 128 times(half the decay), 4 bulbs, 64 times(nearly 4 times brighter at 1 foot!), which is why fluorescent tubes are often used in 2 or 4 tube fixtures.

What more bulbs will do is increase the volume of usable light, and increase the intensity(density of photons) within that volume, assuming they're all illuminating the same volume.

:peace:
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Whoa, I left this thread for 12 hours and suddenly there are all kinds of answers! Hooray!

Just for stopping by, everyone gets a +rep (oooooh, aaaaaaah)!

Anyway, I read that other thread, jimmyc, and I must admit the part with the charts and graphs was a little over my head. I haven't had my morning coffee yet, so I'll revisit it when I'm closer to fully awake than I am now.

Someone there says that floros have the most usable light for plants? I can only hope this is true, as I'm a floro lover and have been looking for any excuse to purchase additional bulbs!

Someone there also says that a lower lumen rating on a bulb is indicative of a better light for plants? Something rings true about this to me. since "lumens are for humans" (teehee), and measure more of the green light than anything else (which plants can't use) it seems to make sense that a lower lumen output bulb probably has more light in the blue and red ends of things which is what plants use.

Now, I'm also under the impression that LED grow lights typically don't even offer up their lumen output, and If you've ever seen LED grow lights in action you'll know that they don't appear "bright" in the way we expect from a grow light. Here's a quote from an LED related site:

The most accurate unit
of measurement for comparing grow lights is the micro Einstein, which measures how many photons of light strike an area per second

Then they go on to say that all types of grow lights (except the ones they sell, of course) emit large amounts of unusable light.

Does anyone know what the lumen output of an LED grow light is? Has anyone seen a successful grow that used only bulbs with a low lumen output (13W CFLs, for instance)?


EDIT: I've given out too much rep in the past 24 hours... how long do I have to wait before I can hand out more?

 
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