Cree 1000W DE HPS Replacement Reference Design

coolbreez1 · Jul 4, 2016

Hybridway said:
Or even just run your existing 3590's @ 100 watts. The light company I prefer to use is doing this & still standing behind a 5 year warranty. If they can do it, I don't see why a DIY'r can't when they replace their cobs every time the newest, baddest cob or tech comes out anyways?
But I am shunned for suggesting it?
I brought this up in an led vs. HPS intensity thread that shows a huge drop in led under the canopy. The high powered LEDs did not have much drop nor did the HPS. But I'm an idiot right?
Everyone complains about the drop. I come up with a POSSIBLE solution & I'm dogged by guys that don't even grow. That's why I bugged. Not because I am right or wrong but because NG's talk mad shit to people trying to contribute to bigger buds & larger yields.
I don't get it, why????
So underpowered, underlit tents can be promoted in order to sell lights for vendors?
I don't know but that's what it seams like seeing how the guys saying I'm so stupid appear to be hype men, not growers or smart people.

I have lights designed and built that run Vero 29s at 100W each. They work great no problems. However, all costs being equal, assuming similar canopy intensity, by adjusting distance from light, I think a 3 Vero 29 light at like 2ft would lose to a 6 vero 29 light at 1ft in terms of yield.

Also worth noting, I have a PAR meter, and everyone should know in most cases they are sampling a 2 dimensional plane. So orientation will effect measurement, an important consideration when you are dealing with multipoint sources of light and highly reflective walls. Just taking a few 1ft spaced out horizontally oriented measurements in given space is not an incredibly effective measurement, I can get a 50-100 PAR change by simply tilting measurement plain at some locations. To accurately measure you would need to take much more precise measurements, maybe like 4-8 per ft to account for angular dispersion.

I think there is something to be said for spreading out the COBs and distributing the light, but I think it is more important to consider the cost metrics, and planned obsolescence of the COB its self. Makes much more sense to drive the COBs hard for 2-3 years, simple math. I could build a 300 watt 3 Vero 29 light $300, or I could build a 15% more efficient 300 watt 6 Vero 29 light $450. Now simply apply the Gen 7 Vero 29s and my $450 light is obsolete, and I could simply replace the COBs in the $300 watt light for $75.

MrTwist1 · Jul 4, 2016

coolbreez1 said:
I have lights designed and built that run Vero 29s at 100W each. They work great no problems. However, all costs being equal, assuming similar canopy intensity, by adjusting distance from light, I think a 3 Vero 29 light at like 2ft would lose to a 6 vero 29 light at 1ft in terms of yield.

Also worth noting, I have a PAR meter, and everyone should know in most cases they are sampling a 2 dimensional plane. So orientation will effect measurement, an important consideration when you are dealing with multipoint sources of light and highly reflective walls. Just taking a few 1ft spaced out horizontally oriented measurements in given space is not an incredibly effective measurement. To accurately measure you would need to take much more precise measurements, maybe like 4-8 per ft to account for angular dispersion.

I think there is something to be said for spreading out the COBs and distributing the light, but I think it is more important to consider the cost metrics, and planned obsolescence of the COB its self. Makes much more sense to drive the COBs hard for 2-3 years, simple math. I could build a 300 watt 3 Vero 29 light $300, or I could build a 15% more efficient 300 watt 6 Vero 29 light $450. Now simply apply the Gen 7 Vero 29s and my $450 light is obsolete, and I could simply replace the COBs in the $300 watt light for $75.

You make a lot of good points dude.

I personally don't plan on replacing my LED light within 2-3 years. I purposely went for a slightly more expensive/efficient setup because I plan on running it for 5 years (if I can). Sure we will see some improved efficiency in that time, but I'm already pretty blown away by the efficiency I have now... I do not plan to hop on the next gen just to get another 5% cos I already think 60% is pretty outstanding.

I will say though... if I had different circumstances I might well be tempted to go down the route you describe and run 'em a bit harder. Horses for courses.

JorgeGonzales · Jul 4, 2016

@coolbreez1 if this was "simple math" there'd be no conversation, and everybody would be running the same lights in the same configuration at the same power.

The great thing about LEDs is the complete lack of planned obsolescence. You can upgrade to pick up a little efficiency, but those leds are going to last many, many years.

Let's say you built a 6 cob Vero lamp, instead of 3. Same wattage, same heatsink, costs an extra $75.

Well, you are already running 15% more efficient than the guy who has built the 3 cob lamp and now has to upgrade to catch up to where the 6 cob lamp guy has been for the past two years. Uh oh. So 6 cob guy has a permanent spread advantage, and years of electrical savings, and can sit on his ass instead of scraping off thermal paste and upgrading.

Nothing really simple about it, probably depends on the builder and what he wants.

coolbreez1 · Jul 4, 2016

JorgeGonzales said:
@coolbreez1 if this was "simple math" there'd be no conversation, and everybody would be running the same lights in the same configuration at the same power.

The great thing about LEDs is the complete lack of planned obsolescence. You can upgrade to pick up a little efficiency, but those leds are going to last many, many years.

Let's say you built a 6 cob Vero lamp, instead of 3. Same wattage, same heatsink, costs an extra $75.

Well, you are already running 15% more efficient than the guy who has built the 3 cob lamp and now has to upgrade to catch up to where the 6 cob lamp guy has been for the past two years. Uh oh. So 6 cob guy has a permanent spread advantage, and years of electrical savings, and can sit on his ass instead of scraping off thermal paste and upgrading.

Nothing really simple about it, probably depends on the builder and what he wants.

Yes, like I said simple math. The next to factors would be the goal of the grow. Are you maxed out with your one light or could you grow more with more lights. Then consider the amount of power you use and how much power costs. Within these constraints it should be simple to figure out what is the best solution for a given individual.

I would say if you are dealing with high power costs, restricted space and size of grow, then it will make more sense to invest in building the more expensive light every time.

If you are dealing with relatively low power costs, a location that would allow for increasing grow size, with the ability to monetize legally, then the lower cost lights are going to win hands down every time.

If you are wanting to make something to sell to consumers then that is a completely different animal, because it will depend on what market segment you want to target.

Hybridway · Jul 4, 2016

MrTwist1 said:
You make a lot of good points dude.

I personally don't plan on replacing my LED light within 2-3 years. I purposely went for a slightly more expensive/efficient setup because I plan on running it for 5 years (if I can). Sure we will see some improved efficiency in that time, but I'm already pretty blown away by the efficiency I have now... I do not plan to hop on the next gen just to get another 5% cos I already think 60% is pretty outstanding.

I will say though... if I had different circumstances I might well be tempted to go down the route you describe and run 'em a bit harder. Horses for courses.

May we see your led light you plan on running for 5 years? And how are you gonna keep up with all current cob talk 6-12 months from now if your tech becomes obsolete & you're then running at half the efficiency of everyone else here on RIU?
Real curious to see your light w/ a plant under it? Thnx for obliging my request.

@JorgeGonzales , I've heard you talk about your build & grow as well. You guys seem so smart, I'd really like to get some ideas & possibly learn from your builds & grows.
Thank you too!

Hybridway · Jul 4, 2016

coolbreez1 said:
I have lights designed and built that run Vero 29s at 100W each. They work great no problems. However, all costs being equal, assuming similar canopy intensity, by adjusting distance from light, I think a 3 Vero 29 light at like 2ft would lose to a 6 vero 29 light at 1ft in terms of yield.

Also worth noting, I have a PAR meter, and everyone should know in most cases they are sampling a 2 dimensional plane. So orientation will effect measurement, an important consideration when you are dealing with multipoint sources of light and highly reflective walls. Just taking a few 1ft spaced out horizontally oriented measurements in given space is not an incredibly effective measurement, I can get a 50-100 PAR change by simply tilting measurement plain at some locations. To accurately measure you would need to take much more precise measurements, maybe like 4-8 per ft to account for angular dispersion.

I think there is something to be said for spreading out the COBs and distributing the light, but I think it is more important to consider the cost metrics, and planned obsolescence of the COB its self. Makes much more sense to drive the COBs hard for 2-3 years, simple math. I could build a 300 watt 3 Vero 29 light $300, or I could build a 15% more efficient 300 watt 6 Vero 29 light $450. Now simply apply the Gen 7 Vero 29s and my $450 light is obsolete, and I could simply replace the COBs in the $300 watt light for $75.

Great explanation! If I built, I would want as much power from my cobs or leds that I could get while still staying within safe parameters. So, I'd run my 3590's @ 100watts, put them on bigger, best heatsinks I could find so they'd be fine to run passive but I'd still throw fans on them anyways.
By doing this, I would hope to increase penetration & total light output from every angle I could supply my plants with. I noticed that running them with reflectors does a great job at providing a huge footprint & still be able to run close to the canopy.
My 3070's are real intense running @ only 47 watts w/ reflectors & lenses used in conjunction with one another. So, If I was to run them at 71-79 watts, I might be able to achieve the higher intensity as well as grow close & have a better spread, right? Cuz the lenses create a different type of intensity I believe. But I may be wrong. I'm not a light Builder. Just very interested in lighting for my plants.
I've seen huge differences in using different spectrums & light sources. They deffinetly are not all the same & do give varrying results from my experience.
What's your opinion on a 3 light 3590 light bar running each cob @ 100 watts?
I ask because that's what I plan to buy this week.
3 of them & 2 , 3 COB light bars running 3070's @ around 71 watts.
There will be light bars everywhere so I will have all the intensity they can offer as well as light from every angle.
If they are cooled accordingly, do you agree they would work well for me, trying to maximize light to my plants?
Thanks!

coolbreez1 · Jul 4, 2016

Hybridway said:
Great explanation! If I built, I would want as much power from my cobs or leds that I could get while still staying within safe parameters. So, I'd run my 3590's @ 100watts, put them on bigger, best heatsinks I could find so they'd be fine to run passive but I'd still throw fans on them anyways.
By doing this, I would hope to increase penetration & total light output from every angle I could supply my plants with. I noticed that running them with reflectors does a great job at providing a huge footprint & still be able to run close to the canopy.
My 3070's are real intense running @ only 47 watts w/ reflectors & lenses used in conjunction with one another. So, If I was to run them at 71-79 watts, I might be able to achieve the higher intensity as well as grow close & have a better spread, right? Cuz the lenses create a different type of intensity I believe. But I may be wrong. I'm not a light Builder. Just very interested in lighting for my plants.
I've seen huge differences in using different spectrums & light sources. They deffinetly are not all the same & do give varrying results from my experience.
What's your opinion on a 3 light 3590 light bar running each cob @ 100 watts?
I ask because that's what I plan to buy this week.
3 of them & 2 , 3 COB light bars running 3070's @ around 71 watts.
There will be light bars everywhere so I will have all the intensity they can offer as well as light from every angle.
If they are cooled accordingly, do you agree they would work well for me, trying to maximize light to my plants?
Thanks!

All of this stuff is really hard to know for sure because I am not familiar with what chips output at what efficiency.

What I do know that it is not as simple as more light is always better, particularly if you are a new grower. I would forward that a new grower would likely get a better yield out of a 4x4 tent with 300 watts of LED light then 600 watts of LED light, or if you prefer, a new grower would do best under 600 watt HPS, second best under 1000 watt HPS, and worst under a 1000W DE HPS. This is why intended target market, if designing for real world is a major consideration. I think that the new grower is going to do better under the 300W of LED or 600W of HPS, because the two biggest errors are going to be, temperature control or over/under nutrition. Its like a commuter car vs a race car, most people don't have the skill to drive the race car. New growers are going to be forced into more errors with better lights because they wont have set up there grow to control for temperature correctly, or the plant will start growing much faster then they can handle given any number of constraints, pot size, tent size, trimming ability, ability to diagnose nutrient deficiency, or even willingness to feed the plant as much as it actually needs given its insane growth, pot size, rate of flowering...

Hybridway · Jul 4, 2016

coolbreez1 said:
All of this stuff is really hard to know for sure because I am not familiar with what chips output at what efficiency.

What I do know that it is not as simple as more light is always better, particularly if you are a new grower. I would forward that a new grower would likely get a better yield out of a 4x4 tent with 300 watts of LED light then 600 watts of LED light, or if you prefer, a new grower would do best under 600 watt HPS, second best under 1000 watt HPS, and worst under a 1000W DE HPS. This is why intended target market, if designing for real world is a major consideration. I think that the new grower is going to do better under the 300W of LED or 600W of HPS, because the two biggest errors are going to be, temperature control or over/under nutrition. Its like a commuter car vs a race car, most people don't have the skill to drive the race car. New growers are going to be forced into more errors with better lights because they wont have set up there grow to control for temperature correctly, or the plant will start growing much faster then they can handle given any number of constraints, pot size, tent size, trimming ability, ability to diagnose nutrient deficiency, or even willingness to feed the plant as much as it actually needs given its insane growth.

True! I am a skilled grower with experience in large scale growing. So, I grow for max yields in a room rather then a tent.
My goals are as much quality meds as possible, every run. I did a journal using only 450 watts in a 4'x4' just to see what my light could do. Usually I grow w/ around 1200 watts HPS per 4'x4' section & yield about 2 plates. So, I was pretty sphyced to get 18+ oz off my 450 led in a 4'x4'. That's not counting the 3 oz of popcorn I got from not Loli-popping that I got to use for oil.
And that was totally neglecting my grow. I can only imagine how well I could do with a proper veg & actually trying.
With that said, I really want to run my COBs & LEDs harder then the usual accepted efficiency rates that most DIY'rs & pre-built fixture guys do now. I know that more light equals more yield for me.
As long as they can be cooled properly, they should be the answer to my goals I hope.
They are 3 COB light bars with surrounding monos rather then the 4 running at 50 watts. I feel the monos will make up for that other COB in photosynthetic action by further enhancing the spectrum in combination w/ the HO COBs.
Well, I'll be running this set-up in my journal for all to see, so I hope it works out.
You sound like you know a thing or two about running them hard or soft so I figured I'd run it by you. Thanks for listening!

MrTwist1 · Jul 4, 2016

Hybridway said:
May we see your led light you plan on running for 5 years? And how are you gonna keep up with all current cob talk 6-12 months from now if your tech becomes obsolete & you're then running at half the efficiency of everyone else here on RIU?
Real curious to see your light w/ a plant under it? Thnx for obliging my request.

@JorgeGonzales , I've heard you talk about your build & grow as well. You guys seem so smart, I'd really like to get some ideas & possibly learn from your builds & grows.
Thank you too!

I'm afraid I'm not in any hurry to show my DIY COB effort off at this moment in time... It is way way below the quality of pretty much everything you see on here lol. I am an expat living in a developing country and I do not have access to the same resources over here. Aluminium angle would be a dream to source locally, but I am pretty sure it's not an option. I am forced to buy almost everything I need online, and get it shipped here via the US and I pay an additional $4 per lb for everything on top of domestic US shipping charges... suffice to say my lights look like a piece of shit lol.

At some point in time I might start my own grow thread. I used to keep one on ICMag a few years ago, but my setup was terrible back then. It's lights off right now, so I can't take any pictures I'm afraid. I also feel very reluctant to share any pictures just to pander to your paranoiac mind. For you to assume I don't grow because I don't show off a lot of pictures does not win any favour with me, and makes you sound silly. I have already posted pics of an upgrade to my veg space within this very sub-forum not so long ago, so if you so desire proof then may I suggest you take a little look around before you start making stupid comments about me. Anyway I will likely share more pictures in the future, but it will be because I want to, and not because you doubt me. If you have any questions about my setup I am very happy to share anything. I am by no means a master grower, but I am currently self sufficient and very happy with my meds. Jah bless.

Anyway in response; I don't care about keeping up with current COB talk - I am only here to learn and share some knowledge and I will probably get bored of this forum before too long - I am quite faddy like that lol. I care even less about the prospect of running half the efficiency of future COBs because I am already somewhere around 60% and that is just simply not possible lol.

Hybridway · Jul 4, 2016

MrTwist1 said:
I'm afraid I'm not in any hurry to show my DIY COB effort off at this moment in time... It is way way below the quality of pretty much everything you see on here lol. I am an expat living in a developing country and I do not have access to the same resources over here. Aluminium angle would be a dream to source locally, but I am pretty sure it's not an option. I am forced to buy almost everything I need online, and get it shipped here via the US and I pay an additional $4 per lb for everything on top of domestic US shipping charges... suffice to say my lights look like a piece of shit lol.

At some point in time I might start my own grow thread. I used to keep one on ICMag a few years ago, but my setup was terrible back then. It's lights off right now, so I can't take any pictures I'm afraid. I also feel very reluctant to share any pictures just to pander to your paranoiac mind. For you to assume I don't grow because I don't show off a lot of pictures does not win any favour with me, and makes you sound silly. I have already posted pics of an upgrade to my veg space within this very sub-forum not so long ago, so if you so desire proof then may I suggest you take a little look around before you start making stupid comments about me. Anyway I will likely share more pictures in the future, but it will be because I want to, and not because you doubt me. If you have any questions about my setup I am very happy to share anything. I am by no means a master grower, but I am currently self sufficient and very happy with my meds. Jah bless.

Anyway in response; I don't care about keeping up with current COB talk - I am only here to learn and share some knowledge and I will probably get bored of this forum before too long - I am quite faddy like that lol. I care even less about the prospect of running half the efficiency of future COBs because I am already somewhere around 60% and that is just simply not possible lol.

Well, w/ your said conditions, I'm surprised you're not more modest & less attracted to harassing me when I have a good idea or opinion based on my experience. I don't knock you guys but you guys come down pretty hard on me when I participate in threads. It's not cool & not called for.
I may not be a super intellect but I am super logical. I speak from experience & from what I see, the guys that harass me do not. So, I recommend you do not bust my balls just cuz your buddies do. Thanks!
Good luck with your DIY efforts.

MrTwist1 · Jul 4, 2016

Hybridway said:
I grow for max yields in a room rather then a tent.

This is really the crux of the issue here - your reality is different to many people here running a whole room rather than a tent or cabinet etc. What might make sense for your setup may not make sense for others. The same goes for every other variable like ambient temps, electricity cost etc.

JorgeGonzales · Jul 4, 2016

Hybridway said:
@JorgeGonzales , I've heard you talk about your build & grow as well. You guys seem so smart, I'd really like to get some ideas & possibly learn from your builds & grows.
Thank you too!

I'm good, thanks.

Hybridway · Jul 4, 2016

MrTwist1 said:
This is really the crux of the issue here - your reality is different to many people here running a whole room rather than a tent or cabinet etc. What might make sense for your setup may not make sense for others. The same goes for every other variable like ambient temps, electricity cost etc.

You think that's why these guys bust my balls? Cuz my grow style is so much different! I don't know but it's whack.
Thanks for the reply.

MrTwist1 · Jul 4, 2016

Hybridway said:
Well, w/ your said conditions, I'm surprised you're not more modest & less attracted to harassing me when I have a good idea or opinion based on my experience. I don't knock you guys but you guys come down pretty hard on me when I participate in threads. It's not cool & not called for.
I may not be a super intellect but I am super logical. I speak from experience & from what I see, the guys that harass me do not. So, I recommend you do not bust my balls just cuz your buddies do. Thanks!
Good luck with your DIY efforts.

Dude I never had a problem with you until you stopped listening to what people were saying and started acting crazy and paranoid. As I have said many times I admire your grows and I liked your attitude until you turned. Just understand that your real world grow experience doesn't necessarily qualify you to argue about physics with some guys who are clearly serious nerds putting a lot of time in to come up with data that benefits us all. Just suck it up and put it down to experience, and keep an open mind. There is a lot to be learned here. peace

MrTwist1 · Jul 4, 2016

Hybridway said:
You think that's why these guys bust my balls? Cuz my grow style is so much different! I don't know but it's whack.
Thanks for the reply.

Your grow style is not so different - you are simply growing in a full room where you seemingly do not have to worry about temps or electricity costs. Man I wish I had the same circumstances!

I can tell you that I would probably care slightly less about efficiency if that was my reality, and of course my grow style would be very different to what it is now. sadly it is not. such is life.

Happy 4th :bigjoint:

peace

a mongo frog · Jul 4, 2016

MrTwist1 said:
Dude I never had a problem with you until you stopped listening to what people were saying and started acting crazy and paranoid. As I have said many times I admire your grows and I liked your attitude until you turned. Just understand that your real world grow experience doesn't necessarily qualify you to argue about physics with some guys who are clearly serious nerds putting a lot of time in to come up with data that benefits us all. Just suck it up and put it down to experience, and keep an open mind. There is a lot to be learned here. peace

What do you mean here? Growing experience is everthing.

MrTwist1 · Jul 4, 2016

a mongo frog said:
What do you mean here? Growing experience is everything.

Growing experience is wonderful I agree. Does it render you an expert on the laws of physics and how they pertain to the indoor grow environment? I would argue not. No more than it renders you an expert on microbial biology, or molecular chemistry.

a mongo frog · Jul 4, 2016

MrTwist1 said:
Growing experience is wonderful I agree. Does it render you an expert on the laws of physics and how they pertain to the indoor grow environment? I would argue not. No more than it renders you an expert on microbial biology, or molecular chemistry.

I guess your right. Tell us something.

a senile fungus · Jul 4, 2016

In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not.

~ some dude

MrTwist1 · Jul 4, 2016

a mongo frog said:
I guess your right. Tell us something.

I'll tell you something interesting I read the other day... in the not so distant future we will see hybrid COB light engines that combine the best qualities of phosphor based coating tech and RGB tech for even higher efficiency. kinda like having a whole Amare in a single COB. :cool:

Cree 1000W DE HPS Replacement Reference Design

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member