qwizo - Thanks tuning in and offering your opinion.
J
Cool air and warm water – higher metabolism, faster growth and production combo
- Thread starter J Henry
- Start date
J
I thought maybe you might've had something valuable to say, but I was wrong. You cant answer very simple questions about how you would get 100% DO saturation or how you would go about keeping your rez 15f warmer than the air temp the rez is in. Instead you keep repeating the same what if, how about, maybe when nonsense. If you have any reality based ideas I would love to hear them. If not you can take your hypothetical questions, wiki links, and smart ass remarks and gfy
Here you go krypto - If you never have low O2 problems, don't waste a second of your time even reading this.
Warn the water with something like this - Submersible Aquarium Heater, Glass 300-Watt, for Freshwater Aquarium and Saltwater Aquarium, Jetsu's New Range of Aquarium Supplies http://www.amazon.com/Submersible-Aquarium-300-Watt-Freshwater-Saltwater/dp/B00Y2ODQ4M/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1455316170&sr=8-2&keywords=jetsu+aquarium+supplies&tag=aquarium heaters
Or set your high dollar water chiller temp at 80F
If you have low O2 problems... for most reasonable people, the reasonable solution to any low oxygen problem is administer more oxygen http://www.inogen.com/resources/oxygen-concentrators/how-does-an-oxygen-concentrator-work/ A less reasonable person would administer more air, turn the fan on high oo buy a bigger fan that blows more air. buy a water chiller and keep the water cold.
If you need more air, then provide more air http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-33-gal-Quiet-Portable-Electric-Air-Compressor-C331H/203995169
If your need a bubble rock to make more air bubbles http://www.petmountain.com/product/aquarium-airstones/11442-504546/lees-lees-discard-a-stone-diffuser.html
If you want to how this works Henry's law states: "At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas that dissolves in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid." Put your math hat on for this one.
Now you have everything you need to achieve 120% - 150% DO Superaturation 80F nutrient water head waters. If you are tired of guessing and hoping, buy a DO meter ($800 or so) test the DO at the head water 140% DO Sat - subtract the measured DO Sat at the tail waters 90% DO Sat, The 50% DO Sat loss is the oxygen consumed by the microbial eco system and the botanical eco system plus some evaporation loss. Both eco system in your nutrient solution never suffer from low oxygen events when the tail water is 90% Saturated.
Now you know what to do if you ever have a low oxygen problem, the same thing doctors to for patients with low oxygen problems... give them oxygen, plenty of it till their lips and ears turn pink again.
But, if you never have a low oxygen problem in your system, root rot or a stinking brown dead mess and your happy with air and cold water, chillers and that electric bill... air is your bag of tea. Supplemental oxygen is definitely not an option for you today.
Now you know krypto.
J
Its not on me, these are your claims and ideas. The burden of proof is on you. Having ideas and theories are great, but are they practical? How would you set it up? How many gallons of water could one generator maintain at 90% DO? Can it be run 24/7? How would I get one, your link says they require a prescription and cannot be purchased over the counter. What do they cost? The cost of water chillers was the point of this thread correct? You can buy water chillers/heat exchangers for a couple hundred bucks. Just the meter you suggest is $800! Have you run this system yourself? I bet you haven't. Have you done any indoor gardening? Probably stumbled across "henrys law" on Wikipedia decided you would use that as a screen name a drop some knowledge. When all you've really done is come off as a "know it all" who makes assumptions about people and things you know nothing about. In multiple threads you've posted zero real world experience, which means zero real world credibility to me. If you ever get this idea up and running you'd probably be a rich man/woman. I would be curious to see how plants respond to that kind of DO%, but until its able to be done debating it is useless. As of now I have no o2 problems because I grow in soil. Good luck with your idea it could be great if it can be done in a practical cost effective manner.
Quit the whining, grow up and stop wanting everything for FREE like a lot of people in America - in the mean time quit your poor me, show me, free food mindset. Here's FREE boy... gfy and your Mama too.
J
Hello Heisenberg,
I did not know that you have abandoned the tea. OK, let’s move on from aerating tea with an air pumps to insuring long term continuous safe oxygenation for dual eco systems in DWC with oxygen, the gas.
Yes, I did see that you have clarified that we can never hope to raise DO levels to those able to satisfy the roots. Are you absolutely sure about this?
“Good enough” is OK for the average DWC grower as you mentioned. This is for growers where “good enough” is not even close to the real high-tech growers applying cutting-edge growing methods to produce the highest quality product.
Surely we cannot simply dismiss that additional oxygen is surely necessary to satisfy the biological demand of the total biomass of aerobic micro-organisms necessary for plant health so easily... that is IF we really want build a thriving healthy DWC system that will produce the highest quality product.
Maintaining 2 healthy eco systems in recirculating DWC requires a lot of oxygen, if microbe health and reproduction is an issue. I seriously doubt that “1 wt. per gallon” works at all as a rule of thumb if “the aim is really to facilitate a favorable [oxygenated] environment for beneficial microbes.” No disrespect intended?
what a fuckin fraud
I did not know that you have abandoned the tea. OK, let’s move on from aerating tea with an air pumps to insuring long term continuous safe oxygenation for dual eco systems in DWC with oxygen, the gas.
Yes, I did see that you have clarified that we can never hope to raise DO levels to those able to satisfy the roots. Are you absolutely sure about this?
“Good enough” is OK for the average DWC grower as you mentioned. This is for growers where “good enough” is not even close to the real high-tech growers applying cutting-edge growing methods to produce the highest quality product.
Surely we cannot simply dismiss that additional oxygen is surely necessary to satisfy the biological demand of the total biomass of aerobic micro-organisms necessary for plant health so easily... that is IF we really want build a thriving healthy DWC system that will produce the highest quality product.
Maintaining 2 healthy eco systems in recirculating DWC requires a lot of oxygen, if microbe health and reproduction is an issue. I seriously doubt that “1 wt. per gallon” works at all as a rule of thumb if “the aim is really to facilitate a favorable [oxygenated] environment for beneficial microbes.” No disrespect intended?
what a fuckin fraud
Budley Doright
Well-Known Member
The second pic is a root zone at 75-80 running a timed spray setup with microbes poured directly into net pots and roots, almost lost the plants. Third pic is running chilled water at 65 F with insulated root chamber and their on their way to recovery 
The first is a pic of the roots that were kept in basically the same environment but kept cool from the start. These roots are suspended so should get plenty of O2 so it is my thought that even with lots of O2 the warmer temps still enable bad shit to happen at the root zone.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Must have been scary looking into mirror. Really no need to project your flaws while you exhibit them so clearly... It's redundant. And I'm not a know-it-all, I'm what know-it-alls pretend to be
So, now that you learned what percentages are..
Roots need a minimum DO level in ppm (mg/l) to stay healthy, and a higher yet limited amount in mg (i.e. per hour per kg root mass) to produce. Unlike probably every beginner with hydro thinks, more is not more endlessly when it comes to DO. In a recirculating setup where the water is replaced fast enough from an oxygenate res the DO level can be lower to still meet the demands. These numbers have been determined for many crops based on solid research (i.e. not cannabis related...) and don't vary that much. If hydroponics was for ol' hippies the rule of thumb would be "if it's good enough for fish it's good enough for plants". Once that point has been reached and you replace fast enough what is used, there's no point in trying to get fancy based on wikipedia info you don't comprehend. How much the max - reasonably achievable - DO level is, how much that 100% you mentioned really reflects, depends partly on temp. Reaching the required level is easy enough with a simple airpump or even water pump.
It is a side effect, a bonus, of using a chiller. People usually don't buy chillers specifically to aerate their soup... but because it is an easy and often effective way to keep it clean and healthy, to prevent extremes. It is often not required, and when used it's often rarely on (summer days, or during early veg when the canopy isn't full enough to block the heat from the light).
"Pythium is particularly severe when daytime temperatures exceed 28°C (82°F) and night temperatures fail to fall below 20°C (68°F)." After tons of growers, both cannabis and in more professional industries, have noticed keeping the temps low goes a long way to preventing and reducing pythium outbreaks...
As pointed out by Krypto, your thread and uninformed theories are pointless without at least trying it out. You can set up a test setup at a minimal investement... which should appeal to you considering that misplaced free food mindset comment is probably also something you've heard more than ones. Good luck, I look foward to your side by side test.
This may help you get a grip on reality - http://www.dramm.com/media/Dissolved Oxygen in the Greenhouse.pdf
Or maybe not
Or maybe not
PDF]Dissolved Oxygen in the Greenhouse - Dramm
www.dramm.com/.../Dissolved%20Oxygen%20in%20the%20Greenhous...
Dissolved oxygen in irrigation water is vital to plant health. When properly delivered ... especially in a greenhouse, to exceed the natural saturation point of DO in
DankaDank
Well-Known Member
Read all the links you posted ,You could be onto something here maybe inoculating your roots with trichoderma(that would thrive in warm conditions)would help combat root pathogen issues.the only other thing is the relative humidity would have to be low at those temps to allow transpiration.However the fundamental question is if it's worth the cash to achieve this.i don't think anyone has the ability to prove or disprove this based on the theory alone, so a practical test would have to be done.
pinner420
Well-Known Member
Arguing about known limiting factors is funny till your 4-6 k plant is in the balance; said differently till your room full of said plants that you raised and loved with every breath. Load up a room and prove every master grower wrong and ill follow ya. Something tells me this guy doesnt have any skin in the game.
The oxygen demand or root O2 demand requirements increase 50% for every 9 F increase in temp while at the same time, the oxygen carrying capacity of the solution drops 12.5%.
This does not take into consideration the oxygen demand required of all the aerobic microbes in the solution consuming oxygen. The microbes must have O2 too to stay alive and be healthy.
When the nutrient DO is unable to supply the root's oxygen demand and the microbial oxygen demand collectively for any reason, expect prolonged oxygen starvation.
Oxygen starvation will result in slow growth, mineral deficiencies, root die-back, reduced yields sick and dying plants, sick and dying Beneficial microbes and attacks by opportunist pathogens like Pythium fungi and other pest.
***** Now here comes the Grand Whammy that can cost you some bucks – It is a fact that oxygen starvation will stress the plant eco system and the microbial eco system, leading to an eventual attack by opportunistic pathogens, such as ever-present Pythium… the brown Root Rot disease.
Oh, I believe Pythium is far worse than a dose of the “sick dick disease” the dreaded Bull's Head Clap.
All of this mess is preventable simply by insuring a continuous oxygen rich environment. Prevention is better than fighting the disease and the cure. The cure is no panacea, it does not reverse the cellular damage caused by harsh chemicals like H2O2 and Clorox.
One thing you can be sure of, H2O2 and Clorox will kill the beneficial microbes in a heartbeat and make a slimy sludge. Then for a few more bucks, you got to buy a new batch of lively fresh Beneficial’s and start a new microbial culture when you got skin in the game. That’s pocket change compared to the rest of the crop damage and loss in time and money and meaningless stress.
J
This does not take into consideration the oxygen demand required of all the aerobic microbes in the solution consuming oxygen. The microbes must have O2 too to stay alive and be healthy.
When the nutrient DO is unable to supply the root's oxygen demand and the microbial oxygen demand collectively for any reason, expect prolonged oxygen starvation.
Oxygen starvation will result in slow growth, mineral deficiencies, root die-back, reduced yields sick and dying plants, sick and dying Beneficial microbes and attacks by opportunist pathogens like Pythium fungi and other pest.
***** Now here comes the Grand Whammy that can cost you some bucks – It is a fact that oxygen starvation will stress the plant eco system and the microbial eco system, leading to an eventual attack by opportunistic pathogens, such as ever-present Pythium… the brown Root Rot disease.
Oh, I believe Pythium is far worse than a dose of the “sick dick disease” the dreaded Bull's Head Clap.
All of this mess is preventable simply by insuring a continuous oxygen rich environment. Prevention is better than fighting the disease and the cure. The cure is no panacea, it does not reverse the cellular damage caused by harsh chemicals like H2O2 and Clorox.
One thing you can be sure of, H2O2 and Clorox will kill the beneficial microbes in a heartbeat and make a slimy sludge. Then for a few more bucks, you got to buy a new batch of lively fresh Beneficial’s and start a new microbial culture when you got skin in the game. That’s pocket change compared to the rest of the crop damage and loss in time and money and meaningless stress.
J
personal lux
Well-Known Member
This seems pretty backwards. Most run water chillers for hydro at 62-68°f, with rooMs at 82-85 with 1200-1500 ps co2. Otherwise your causing the plant to use less co2 because of the lower air temps and the roots get less oxygen from the warmer water.
DankaDank
Well-Known Member
i think you need to go back and read his posts again(involving the oxygen issue)
I see no problem keeping air and nutrient temp 82F - 85F provided there is plenty of O2, do you?
OK, I did. Nothing has changed, still looks fine to me.
DankaDank
Well-Known Member
Sorry i'm being an idiot,i actually agree with you.
Backward? how backward is buying a chiller, chilling the water and ho[ping the cold water will guarantee safe oxygenation for 2 different eco system at the same time 24/7 for months? How about something streight forward like this. If the plants and Beneficial's need more oxygen .. give them more oxygen... that's as simple as it gets.
But you never test the nutrient SDO saturation with a DO Meter, you will never know you have a low oxygen problem and more O2 is needed until the whole mess turns slimy brown and by that time it's way late.
Question for you: What in the world do you think would happen to the plant culture, the root zone and the especially the microbial culture if you chose to maintained the room temp and the nutrient water temp both @ 82f -85F… and at the same time you keep the nutrient solution @ a constant 100% - 125% DO Saturation.
J