Sunbiz1
Well-Known Member
Don't come here, the weather sucks hard...now I'm off to take a cold shower.​hello, is that an invite and if so to where ? lol................ so how are you ?
Cloning: do mothers pass along age?
- Thread starter Juan5ernandez
- Start date
Apomixis
Active Member
Not to contradict, but genetic drift is a mechanism of breeding populations, as described above. This doesn't apply to cuttings. There is no genetic drift from generation to generation of clones, its the same material. Therefore, a clone shows no sign of 'genetic drift'. Any difference in vigor has got to be attributable to environmental factors.Am not sure how it's a myth..
Measuring Genetic Drift
The magnitude of genetic drift depends on N[SUB]e[/SUB], the effective population size, for the population. N[SUB]e[/SUB] is rarely the actual number of individuals in the population (also called N or the census size). N[SUB]e[/SUB] is a theoretical number that represents the number of genetically distinct individuals that contribute gametes to the next generation. N[SUB]e[/SUB] can also be thought of as the number of genetically distinct interbreeding individuals in a population. N[SUB]e[/SUB] is not easy to quantify because it is affected by reproduction and breeding strategies (inbreeding, outcrossing, asexual reproduction), and is dependent on the geographical area over which a population is sampled. N[SUB]e[/SUB] is not easy to define for fungal pathogens that undergo a mixture of sexual and asexual reproduction because the absolute number of individuals can be very large while the number of different genotypes that sexually recombine can be relatively small. An analysis of field populations of the wheat pathogen Mycosphaerella graminicola indicated N[SUB]e[/SUB] of at least 70 strains per square meter (Zhan et al., 2001).
We can calculate how much genetic drift we expect to find in a population if we know the effective population size. The expected variance in the frequency of an allele (call this frequency p) subject to genetic drift is:
Var (p) =after one generation of genetic drift for diploid organisms.
After many generations of genetic drift, an equilibrium will be reached. At equilibrium we expect that:
Var (p) = p[SUB]0[/SUB]q[SUB]0[/SUB]
Where p[SUB]0 [/SUB]and q[SUB]0[/SUB] are the initial frequencies of the two alleles at a locus.
If p[SUB]0[/SUB]=q[SUB]0[/SUB]=0.5 and N[SUB][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/SUB] = 50 then Var (p) = 0.0025
The standard deviation of (p) = (0.0025)[SUP]0.5[/SUP] = 0.05.
The standard deviation is the average absolute value of the expected difference among populations after one generation of drift and is approximately equal to the expected change in allele frequency (p) within each population. Thus in a population of 50 individuals, with two alleles beginning at equal frequencies, we expect the allele frequencies to change by about 5% each generation.
The degree of change increases as the population size decreases.
If p[SUB][SIZE=-1]0[/SIZE][/SUB]=q[SUB][SIZE=-1]0[/SIZE][/SUB]=0.5 and N[SUB][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/SUB] = 5 then Var (p) = 0.05
The standard deviation of (p) = (0.05)[SUP][SIZE=-1]0.5[/SIZE][/SUP] = 0.22
In this case, a population that has only five individuals is expected to experience random changes in allele frequencies of about 22% each generation.
Some folks say that, for whatever reason, clones taken from clones, taken from clones, etc will result in a less vigorous plant, though there is no physiological explanation for it yet. Somehow, I believe it happens, imagine an MJ plant that grows the length of all those clones (imagine all the clones were somehow still attached to mama) its just not natural... Maybe it's something to do with telomeres... I don't know.
Dale Earnhardt
Member
Only if shes kept healthy.Ive had mothers for 3 years and after so long Ive found it hard to keep them healthy.Chimera just lost a cali orange plant that was over 22 years old. ive have seen genetic drift only when the mom becomes sick.....
Figong
Well-Known Member
Yes, it can happen.. it's directly affected in diploids by UV-A/B/C.. which pretty much comprises indoor/outdoor grows(to some extent). (Earlier I found it mentioned with a few MIT PhD final project papers and models w/diagrams)
Figong
Well-Known Member
Ouch @ 22 year mother gone.. must have been a hell of a super-mother.
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is the same age. Which is why you can't (realistically) clone auto flowers.
You can however keep regulars in veg indefinitely.
You can however keep regulars in veg indefinitely.
a mongo frog
Well-Known Member
So true. So hard to keep a healthy mother for years. And good luck on the race this weekend Dale Jr., how do u think u will do?
Dale Earnhardt
Member
I live within 15 minutes of the race today and Im not going all weekend.....
a mongo frog
Well-Known Member
I really like that woman driver. She's so cool. Fucking mother plants give me anxiety.
Apomixis
Active Member
Now that I agree with. Mutation is one form of genetic drift that someone might see in one way or another when dealing with large cloned populations. What you originally posted was more directed towards breeding populations. But, good point, especially for those who deliberately use UV lights to enhance their grows... This could be a factor down the line. Thanks for pointing that out.
Juan5ernandez
Member
Holy GRAIL KUSH, man you guys took off on this forum lol. Any how I have been doing a bit more research into the idea of genetics drifting from the original plant. As it stands a clone of a plant is exactly identical to its mother, no matter how many generations removed it is from the original. This holds true so long as all things are kept constant (stress levels, nutes, TLC, etc...) However, if the DNA in a clone becomes damaged, it will pass on this "mutation" to its clone offspring which can ultimately lead to a slightly different plant many generations removed from the original.
A lot of people that claim that they have experienced a genetic drift, are slightly confused by the terms they are using. This inevitably has lead to the Fact vs Myth arguments that have started to take place here. In all reality it is a case of misunderstanding and semantics (only some use the wrong terminology during their postulation).
So what does this mean? It means that there is no genetic drift in asexual propagation also known as Cloning. Thus, any and all clones or clones of clones are identical to the original mother, regardless of how many generations removed. Genetic drift does occur, however, only in sexual propagation (seeds) due to the mixing of different genetic allels being contributed to the next generation by both parents.
Coming full circle now, we can see that the "drift" experienced by some people, is not the same as a "genetic drift" that is played out in sexual propagation. What is experienced is the continued lineage of a mutation due to damaged DNA in the plant that has been passed along to each consecutive generation. These mutations may occur, and they may not depending on the care given to each generation of plants. Should mutations occur, they are played out on a much slower scale then what is seen in humans/animals due to plants having a slower metabolism. SO, again please refer to one of my prior post,
So, in myth buster fashion I deem the mutational drift, also misused as "genetic drift"
Now, I am not going to post all the links i have been rummaging though, however i will leave you with a few of the more important ones that have aided me in this quest for knowledge;
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/questions/question/3117/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_propagation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_methods_in_plant_breeding_based_on_mode_of_reproduction
Keep it green,
Juan
A lot of people that claim that they have experienced a genetic drift, are slightly confused by the terms they are using. This inevitably has lead to the Fact vs Myth arguments that have started to take place here. In all reality it is a case of misunderstanding and semantics (only some use the wrong terminology during their postulation).
So what does this mean? It means that there is no genetic drift in asexual propagation also known as Cloning. Thus, any and all clones or clones of clones are identical to the original mother, regardless of how many generations removed. Genetic drift does occur, however, only in sexual propagation (seeds) due to the mixing of different genetic allels being contributed to the next generation by both parents.
Coming full circle now, we can see that the "drift" experienced by some people, is not the same as a "genetic drift" that is played out in sexual propagation. What is experienced is the continued lineage of a mutation due to damaged DNA in the plant that has been passed along to each consecutive generation. These mutations may occur, and they may not depending on the care given to each generation of plants. Should mutations occur, they are played out on a much slower scale then what is seen in humans/animals due to plants having a slower metabolism. SO, again please refer to one of my prior post,
So, in myth buster fashion I deem the mutational drift, also misused as "genetic drift"
Now, I am not going to post all the links i have been rummaging though, however i will leave you with a few of the more important ones that have aided me in this quest for knowledge;
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/questions/question/3117/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_propagation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_methods_in_plant_breeding_based_on_mode_of_reproduction
Keep it green,
Juan
tw1st3dm3ntal1ty
Active Member
if a clone is a genetic replica wouldnt it have the same genes as the mother regardless? u said "the farther away from the mother the less genetics its keeps of it" but if that were true wouldnt it ultimately cease to exsist as a physical living obect because it had no DNA, and how would it be farther from the original strain if it was the same DNA and no new DNA being introduced?
Figong
Well-Known Member
It would have DNA... it's just that the allele pairings @ locus may very well be mis-paired.. replaced, or otherwise changed based on any of a few conditions that could cause deletion/substitution/etc.
Exactly! this is the same thing I would say. and do as well
EverythingsHazy
Well-Known Member
Not true. it even SOUNDS ridiculous if you think about it. A clone is a 100% exact copy. If it is cared for well it will be 100% the same. Only clone the healthiest plants and you will be fine. Otherwise tissue culture where clones from clones x1000's wouldnt work because the clones are cloned so much so fast it would ruin the plants.
drcucumber
Well-Known Member
i am newbie ganja grower, but I have a genetics degree.
I am too much of a stoner to read this whole thread, and I don't know why it is 8 pages long, but the answer is yes. A clone is the same age as mother.
'Genetic drift' is a term applied to populations, whereby the frequency of a gene in a population will 'drift' closer to 0 or 1 by random sampling, rather than selection. Genetic drift is not relevant to this topic.
I am too much of a stoner to read this whole thread, and I don't know why it is 8 pages long, but the answer is yes. A clone is the same age as mother.
'Genetic drift' is a term applied to populations, whereby the frequency of a gene in a population will 'drift' closer to 0 or 1 by random sampling, rather than selection. Genetic drift is not relevant to this topic.
roseypeach
Well-Known Member
You made me think of that movie "Multiplicity" Michael Keaton's character clones himself twice, then the clones get a new clone and he is NOT the sharpest tool in the shed LMAO
maybe explain further by telling them what you mean by a gene will drift closer to 0 or 1 can you give an example?
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Nerds!
No seriously, interesting topic. It's one of those things that people parrot without really knowing why it happens. Some commercial growers here do 'not clone cloned clones' as on a larger scale it quickly becomes noticable that the yield per plant decreases. Never heard the word genetics drop in that same context though. Breeders change genetics. The whole point of taking cuttings is to reproduce the same plant because of its genetics.
No seriously, interesting topic. It's one of those things that people parrot without really knowing why it happens. Some commercial growers here do 'not clone cloned clones' as on a larger scale it quickly becomes noticable that the yield per plant decreases. Never heard the word genetics drop in that same context though. Breeders change genetics. The whole point of taking cuttings is to reproduce the same plant because of its genetics.