Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
You have a point there....
Somethin' is not that right ..
(Either Mg is missin',so not much of great Ch production....
Or the panels , are really pushing the PS limits of the canopy..(photoinhibition /photorespiration....)..
I'm suspecting certain two of them-which BTW have x10 reds 620-640 nm,each...
Or somethin' is going wrong with substrate's EC /pH .....
View attachment 2424907
I see hydro in your future. :fire:

Did you see how fat my 36 day from first bud clusters are? I can throttle up/down, or flush if needed
at warp speed

I germed seeds by rising moon, and plan to finish in 1-3 weeks, near the end of the waning moon
 

HiloReign

Well-Known Member
Or the panels , are really pushing the PS limits of the canopy..
I read once that there is a certain amount of light a plant can process in any certain given "on" cycle, before they need rest. Could it be that they are receiving SO much of the light they need that plants end up hastening their PS rates and thus reach their "limit" quicker? And after plants have met said "limit" (they are full), does extra light just become a bombardment or hurtful to the plants? Perhaps their PS rates are so hyperactive that they need to "eat" more? I experienced the same thing:


(The two tallest)
These were under my own custom spectrum, Chinese made 136w LED.
7 x 660nm
3 x 630nm
3 x 10000k
1 x 5500k
1 x 2700k All 90 degree lens

These figures are per module.

In hindsight, WAY too much 660. Although, my plants were doing great up until eviction... After an epsom feeding they seemed to put the color back into their leaves and proceeded fine for another few weeks before they were massacred.


One day I'll actually know what I'm talking about... I need something to do today... Getting laid off bites...

EDIT: I want to try a landrace sativa under this thing
 

tenthirty

Well-Known Member
I already have a panel (at center of whole canopy) with plenty of NW on it...
Anyway...I'll keep that in mind....All whites ,huh ?
Readers Digest version.

With all whites, what we are getting is a smooth homogeneous wave across the spectrum.
We are also improving the chances that the light will be of the same characterization at any given point on the plant. (uniformity)

With discrete frequency leds, there will be a pattern presented to the plant as well as unpredictable spectrum dispersion at any point on the plant. Harmonic and intensity problems as well.

Us humans have problems using less than optimal light as well, this becomes more acute as we age.
Based on the above and my observation, my plants seem to suffer under the Pro-grows compared to the HML's.
This has proven out over 2 runs so far in my grow. F&D, rockwool blocks, same mom, same nutes.......
The only difference is the light hanging over a given section of tray.......
Though, clones are individuals, the morphology is very consistent light to light. HML=good Pro-Grow=bad

Analogy

The antenna pigments should operate in the same manner as a RF amplifier or filter.
The photo receptors and other processes control the antenna pigments in such a way that whatever frequency of light is needed the antenna pigment will be tuned to pass that frequency down the chain.
If a particular frequency of light is requested and is not present at the antenna pigment, what happens? (no power)
How is the plant going to compensate?
How will the plant suffer? (what doesn't get made?)
Interveinal chlorosis????

Thus the experiment from a different grower that has a scientific background and is consistent between grows.
 

HiloReign

Well-Known Member
Readers Digest version.

With all whites, what we are getting is a smooth homogeneous wave across the spectrum.
We are also improving the chances that the light will be of the same characterization at any given point on the plant. (uniformity)

With discrete frequency leds, there will be a pattern presented to the plant as well as unpredictable spectrum dispersion at any point on the plant. Harmonic and intensity problems as well.

Us humans have problems using less than optimal light as well, this becomes more acute as we age.
Based on the above and my observation, my plants seem to suffer under the Pro-grows compared to the HML's.
This has proven out over 2 runs so far in my grow. F&D, rockwool blocks, same mom, same nutes.......
The only difference is the light hanging over a given section of tray.......
Though, clones are individuals, the morphology is very consistent light to light. HML=good Pro-Grow=bad

Analogy

The antenna pigments should operate in the same manner as a RF amplifier or filter.
The photo receptors and other processes control the antenna pigments in such a way that whatever frequency of light is needed the antenna pigment will be tuned to pass that frequency down the chain.
If a particular frequency of light is requested and is not present at the antenna pigment, what happens? (no power)
How is the plant going to compensate?
How will the plant suffer? (what doesn't get made?)
Interveinal chlorosis????

Thus the experiment from a different grower that has a scientific background and is consistent between grows.
...And there was light.
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
HiloReign & 10-30 ...Sorry guys,too much things to do lately..Long goes the list...
Anyway...
Really ,too many questions ,that really ,i'm not able to answer...
We just have ,to keep experimenting...

Now a' present ',for you two ...
"...et dona ferentes... "

Two leaves cut off ,from the plant (unfortunately not with a approx .same surface ... Lab personnel were Stoned ...),after 6 hours the lights went on...
At the middle of light cycle...( ...".t...i...m...e..".. x "power " )
One from the top part (layer ) of canopy ,underneath of really strong in red panel ( approx. 3 Watts flux of 620-640 nm red light ) ....
The other ,from another area -under the "many NW panel " ,but also it was from deepest ,lowest layer of canopy.....
(Really,shade adapted...Really soft .... )
Now...
Those are the leaves.....

leaves top_bottom vis.jpg

Think of : Photoprotective Pigments (Anth/anins=blue/purple ,Xanthophylles=yellow ) ,
Chlorophylles (A= lime green B= Dark green) ,Photosystems II (CHb ) get easily damaged...
As if ,in excess at a Shade A. plant...
New chlorophyll (b),has to be produced to replace the damaged
...Needs in Mg /N /K increase,probably...
The " pressure " didn't "back off "... ( high energy =power x time ,not just "light "...)
( I finally lifted ,all the "guilty " panels pretty higher today... )..
Damage ,was done.....

Remember ..
After 6 hours of energy ..
One from "Top Layer ,Under Red" ...
The other,from "Deepest Layer ,Under Daylight "(NW ) ...


They were subjected under the light of 1 x 26 Watt Cool White CFL ,1 x 26Watt Warm White CFL and 4 X 50 Watt Halogen,so to be photographed...

Leaves top_bottom _NRG.jpg
Their PS efficiency per leaf area/surface ,seems not of a big difference ,
as shown at the above NRG image....
Well ,lets see...
Do they PSnthesize the "same " efficiently ? (per area )....
Any problems ,there...?
.....
The hare or the tortoise..
..?
Gasoline 100 % Octane + Nitromethanol or Diesel ?
...
Draw your conclusions....
leaves _NDVI_Float FC calibrated.jpg
From "Green " { NDVI =0.3 or 30% ) to Purple ( 0.9 or 90% ) is the healthy range of PS activity ....

Over 90% ( magenta to white 0.9=> 1 ) ,leads to primary to photorespiration increasements ,
to be followed by Photoinhibition and Light Saturation...
( If repeated ,day by day ,or kept for prolonged periods of irradiation ,the leaf damage gets irreversible ....

...!!!Blue
is just miam-miam !!!

And by Area.....
255 is max (NDVI =1 ,while 128 is zero ..(NDVI =0 )

Surface_Plot_of_pair_NDVI_Float 1.jpgSurface_Plot_of_pair_NDVI_Float2.jpgSurface_Plot_of_pair _NDVI_Float3.jpg
Surface_Plot_of_pair_ ice _NDVI_Float.jpgSurface_Plot_of_pair _NDVI_Float4.jpgSurface_Plot_of_pair_NDVI_Float5.jpg
Now it's my turn...
And I've ask you two ,HiloReign & 10-30,my brothers....
Just to make shure I'm not goin' nuts....

Which of them seems more efficient and will last in time ?
Which one you'd want for good yields ?
Is the smaller and lower leaf more productive or no ?
With less light and even smaller in area...
Or it's just me loosin'it ..?

Do we need lots of power in small area ?
Or many,many, as many possible leds ? ( Dispersed moderate power x "long " time ,thus energy ...)..?

.....
Does ,finally the spectra plays a role or not ?
Do we need massive amounts of red ?
If yes ,in what way ? Just along with blues ?
....Dunno..Still,don't like the whole idea of reds....
..Now,even less....
10-30,yes...Nothing ,anywhere in,at ,on the plant is made to be radiated with monochromatic radiation...
I agree...Yes,of course ..Health=white light.
Over and out......
.-
 

HiloReign

Well-Known Member
Now it's my turn...
And I've ask you two ,HiloReign & 10-30,my brothers....
Just to make shure I'm not goin' nuts....

Which of them seems more efficient and will last in time ?
Which one you'd want for good yields ?
Is the smaller and lower leaf more productive or no ?
With less light and even smaller in area...
Or it's just me loosin'it ..?

Do we need lots of power in small area ?
Or many,many, as many possible leds ? ( Dispersed moderate power x "long " time ,thus energy ...)..?

.....
Does ,finally the spectra play a role or no ?
Do we need massive amounts of red ?
If yes ,in what way ? Just along with blues ?
....Dunno..Still,don't like the whole idea of reds....
..Now,even less....
10-30,yes...Nothing ,anywhere in,at ,on the plant is made to be radiated with monochromatic radiation...
I agree...Yes,of course ..Health=white light.
Over and out......
.-
Wonderful!!! I do think you have all your marbles about you, friend...

Much like LEDs driven too hard, the plants won't last as long but will experience increased PS (eventually leading to dead foliage... or brighter LEDs that die quicker:bigjoint:). Though, this is why we run the LEDs in a "healthy" manner, so they can maintain. A more balanced light source would produce a "healthier" and more efficient plant than a plant under lights with many spectral peaks that fall off in between. Or something.

I'm just trying to soak up all the knowledge before there's none left...
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Now ...
Lets start ,from the damaged.....


What many " peaks " & " valleys " ,mean ?
Some parts are off,"resting" from intense light harvesting ?
Some are "off",forever ?
Some are exausted ?
For sure some work double as much(specially those close to sap tubes ...
Tips/leaf margins remain a mystery-for now...or I'm just missin' something right now...- ,why they show so increased PS activity ) ,
while other parts do not(severely slowed down ..) or have completely stopped working ..
(maybe even " dead "...If irreversible damage ,leaf dries up,eventyally...Beginning from furthest away cells, from leaf stems (aka petioles =>large nutrient supply )..Meanin' damage begins from tips .... )
Ps rates are higher ,as closer to petiole**(large nutrient/water supply ,there... ) and where is plenty of sap,in general.... ..
( Under high energy absorbance ..)
Peaks ' n ' canyons ....
Like wild desert sun ....
Way too much energy ,makes same scenery on digital NDVI 3D image ...
.Weird....
What is above ,is beneath...:-P

..
NDVI light adapted damaged.jpgSurface_Plot_of_damaged bw.jpgSurface_Plot_of_damaged_ lines.jpgSurface_Plot_of_light face thermal lut.jpgSurface_Plot_of_light golden mountains of light.jpg

P.S. :
**Question...Which part / area of leaves ,when steep angled-erected,horny...-,due to high levels sun irradiation ,
is still subject under intense sunlight...Close to where ? .....(Sunlight also comin' from highest angle / zenith ...From above... )
!!!!
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
The other one ...
Under the NW- mainly- panel and not from top layer but from the deepest possible...
NDVI Shaded under NW 5500.jpgSurface_Plot_of_Shaded golden peak.jpgSurface_Plot_of_Shaded mesh bw.jpgSurface_Plot_of_Shaded thermal lut.jpgSurface_Plot_of_Shaded tlut 2.jpg


Now.....
Both of them ,with levels of NDVI ratio ,over 5 ....(min =5,41 ,up to max = 1 )
At exactly same size/zoom scale and angle of view....( Relative )



Under the NW white led panel ....
(from lowest part of canopy, way under the screen.. )
over065.jpg
Thus maybe and greater allocation of assimilates /PS yields in leaves ...

Under the 10 x 620-640 / 10 x CW /2 x WW / 2 x 400 nm
(top layer )
Surface_Plot_of_lightdamaged over065.jpg
....
Thus maybe and greater allocation to roots ..( Massive and " easier route" 'exhange' of ions between leaf cells ,sap & root cells ???) .
Photosynthate Distribution And Regulation=>Sources and Sinks=>Rates And Mechanisms Of Phloem Transport.)
Having angled leaves needs water ..For starters...Deeper main root...




1) -One is really active towards the petiole ..( "angled" oriented efficiency ) .....
The other is really active to it's main leaf blade (lamina ) ...(horizontally oriented efficiency )....


2) ? Yours to find out ....

3 ) ..Anythin' ,else ? :-P..

energy is power multiplied by duration.jpg
 

tenthirty

Well-Known Member
SDS,
I have to think about this, but.

Which of them seems more efficient and will last in time ?
It is visibly obvious that the upper canopy leaf is damaged
Which one you'd want for good yields ?
Good is a subjective term. From the point of view of plant health lower canopy leaf.
Is the smaller and lower leaf more productive or no ?
Probably so.
With less light and even smaller in area...
Or it's just me loosin'it ..?

Do we need lots of power in small area ?
Probably not.
Or many,many, as many possible leds ? ( Dispersed moderate power x "long " time ,thus energy ...)..?
Let's consider this,
A plant being a biological machine, able to morph itself, The bottom leaf is able to become more shade adapted than the top.
The antenna pigments, (the lens) has become more wide angle or omnidirectional.
The light is more diffuse and coming in from more angels at lower photon density.
Looks more efficient to me. Also being run within it's design parameters.
We may be looking at narrow aperture vs wide angle vs photon density within a given photon stream to the focal point on the plant.
If the above is true.....what to do about it???

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
(Think, intensity curve down the plant....Sun vs HPS vs 10w leds vs 1w leds) Inverse square law.
Beyond sun adapted on the top and shade adapted on the bottom.
There could be spectral problems as well.

.....
Does ,finally the spectra play a role or no ?
You know my hypothesis.
Do we need massive amounts of red ?
You know we've both see grows under almost all red, and they do grow.
The problem is, we have no side by side to compare, not to mention other variables.

If yes ,in what way ? Just along with blues ?
....Dunno..Still,don't like the whole idea of reds....
..Now,even less....
Do you snow ski? Ever been snow blind?
Others have already been down the red and blue road, we both know the various outcomes.
Just hits me as a bad idea.

10-30,yes...Nothing ,anywhere in,at ,on the plant is made to be radiated with monochromatic radiation...
I agree...Yes,of course ..Health=white light.
Over and out......

A more balanced light source would produce a "healthier" and more efficient plant than a plant under lights with many spectral peaks that fall off in between. Or something.
When ever 2 frequency of light (energy) interact, the sum and difference will be created within the cataclysm, and so on and so fort.
This creating harmonics. This is somewhat inefficient when filling the spectrum is the goal. White leds do the best job of this so far.

What I believe is a smooth linear curve across the working spectrum "should" be the most desirable.
Different chemical processes should take different energy levels/types and frequencies. Physics are physics!!
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
What I believe is a smooth linear curve across the working spectrum "should" be the most desirable.
Different chemical processes should take different energy levels/types and frequencies. Physics are physics!!

Righ' on,my brother !
That's my point ,too....


Edit :


You know we've both see grows under almost all red, and they do grow.
The problem is, we have no side by side to compare, not to mention other variables.

.......
Do you snow ski? Ever been snow blind?
Others have already been down the red and blue road, we both know the various outcomes.
Just hits me as a bad idea.
Yes,same bad idea , like as using a shotgun to kill a fly.....
Of course ,it's doable...But there're other ways,too...
 

HiloReign

Well-Known Member
It is a hard concept to grasp as an uneducated fool like myself. A smooth linear curve=homogenous.......
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
(Note : All these-and previous- graphs represent the PS activity / rates per leaf location (area ) ..
The "height" ( z axis ) is the PS rate / activity ...
Some are from -1 ,some from over 0.3 ,some over 0.5,some averaged ( " smoothed ")....

Helpfull images for many assumptions or thoughts...

Healthy leaf / under shadow / NW :
mesh smoothed of shaded PS rates 2.jpgmesh smoothed of shaded PS rates.jpgps rates mesh per area shaded over 03 2.jpgps rates mesh per area shaded over 03 3.jpgps rates mesh per area shaded over 03.jpg

Low/moderately damaged(oversaturated-CHb damaged,Mg+N def) leaf/ top canopy Red,CW& violet (Near UVA ):
ps rates mesh per area damaged 1.jpgps rates mesh per area damaged over 03 bw face smoothed.jpgps rates mesh per area damaged over 03.jpgps rates mesh per area damaged over 04 bw face smoothed.jpg
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Update :
....
Today is the DAY...
After 4 weeks in veg...
Another 4 weeks in favor of ..hmm.." Profitable-yield -wise- ....transition"
Today ,they enter .... " flowering "...
From today to the end, cycle is the renown 12/12 ...
Flowering ,begins....
Guh...ehem...yes...

PC025618.JPGPC025619.JPGPC025620.JPGPC025621.JPGPC025624.JPGPC025626.JPG

190 Watts of led Power,thrown here 'n' there (-just cheappies,nothin' special...) x t.....i...........m...................e........... = ?
 

Piromanis

Member
ΑΣΤΗΡ power.!!!
It is a big deal for me to think or write in English, so i"m gonna say just a hi and a lot of high..!! :p
i"m so happy cause I finally find you..
i suppose there is no place here we could talk Greek, right..?
Άντε ρε αρρώστια.. Έχετε τρελανει όλο το ντουνια..!!:blsmoke:
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Would it not be a benefit to slowly begin cutting the large primary shade leaves at this stage?

That's what I do, BUT, as I use hydro, my plants get fed many times each day, leaf storage is not an issue
 

ganja 2

Active Member
Welcome Piromanis
δεν γράφουμε μόνο Ελληνικά . και να μεταφράζουν οι άλλοι στο γκούκλ .:bigjoint:
 

jubiare

Active Member
You thought that it was left to luck ?

It is already calculated,my brother....
I Didn't say it was left in the luck, certainly not by you

weedman asked a question and said his heatsink seemed hot, so I just shared how to calculate it (as I learned it from knna)

that's all mate
:joint:
 
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