America Wastes $22 Trillion In War On Poverty

abandonconflict said:

Wherefore doth thine nonaggression principal reconcile upon exclusive deed regarding innate wherewithal?

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If property is neither privately owned nor government owned. Who owns it? And who maintains it? And who pays for that maintenance? And who decides the disposition of property if nobody owns it? Is it by committee? And when there is disagreement about management, who reconciles the differences?

Privately owned shit is so much simpler....

NLXSK1 said:

Who owns it?

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We don't own the earth. The earth made us, gave us life, gives us everything that we need in order to sustain life. The earth will keep us and we cannot take the earth with us when we die.

It is for all, and to dispute this requires force.

abandonconflict said:

We don't own the earth. The earth made us, gave us life, gives us everything that we need in order to sustain life. The earth will keep us and we cannot take the earth with us when we die.

It is for all, and to dispute this requires force.

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It is frequently disputed and force is often used. It was used before currency and capitalism were invented. Force and coercion are a constant of the human condition. You cannot remove it by removing artificial constructs created long after force was already common.

abandonconflict said:

We don't own the earth. The earth made us, gave us life, gives us everything that we need in order to sustain life. The earth will keep us and we cannot take the earth with us when we die.

It is for all, and to dispute this requires force.

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Are we allowed to construct shelter? If I build a home am I obligated to share it with you even if you contributed nothing?

If I plant seeds for a crop, am I forced to share it? Even with the people who could have planted their own seeds but decided to play x-box instead? Can I take their x-box?

ginwilly said:

Are we allowed to construct shelter? If I build a home am I obligated to share it with you even if you contributed nothing?

If I plant seeds for a crop, am I forced to share it? Even with the people who could have planted their own seeds but decided to play x-box instead? Can I take their x-box?

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They cannot possibly own an x-box but for you to take it would be coercion so I guess you cannot have the X-box they do not own. Does that clear it up?

oh look, people who can't possibly image a society where property rights are less important than human rights.

There you have it, folks who value property more than life.

NLXSK1 said:

They cannot possibly own an x-box but for you to take it would be coercion so I guess you cannot have the X-box they do not own. Does that clear it up?

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Geez, once you get past bumper sticker phrases, this shit gets hard.

abandonconflict said:

oh look, people who can't possibly image a society where property rights are less important than human rights.

There you have it, folks who value property more than life.

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Would you consider the fact that property rights are seen as most as human rights?

ginwilly said:

Would you consider the fact that property rights are seen as most as human rights?

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Would you consider that not every fucking thing is subject to becoming property?

What's next? Privatization of water? Air?

Free air is socialism. I believe there should be a public option on breathing.

abandonconflict said:

Would you consider that not every fucking thing is subject to becoming property?

What's next? Privatization of water? Air?

Free air is socialism. I believe there should be a public option on breathing.

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Yes, I would consider that. (although air and water has already been privatized in many instances)

Would you consider answering the direct question about property rights actually being considered by most as a human right?

abandonconflict said:

Would you consider that not every fucking thing is subject to becoming property?

What's next? Privatization of water? Air?

Free air is socialism. I believe there should be a public option on breathing.

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The government built this housing project in Chicago named Cabrini Green. It was for low/no income housing for the poor. Within a few decades the entire project had to be bulldozed because it was a condemned condition.

When people do not own property they have no incentive to take care of it.

NLXSK1 said:

The government built this housing project

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Cool story.

By this claim, one would have to assume that all private property is pristine.

abandonconflict said:

Cool story.

By this claim, one would have to assume that all private property is pristine.

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Or....

We could assume people take better care of their own property.

To leap to all private property being pristine... well, we would only do that if we were losing an internet debate.

abandonconflict said:

oh look, people who can't possibly image a society where property rights are less important than human rights.

There you have it, folks who value property more than life.

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Property rights ARE human rights; specifically: the right to sole proprietorship of my unique and individual, irreplaceable self, and to be the final authority on anything involving my person or property.

My life IS MY PROPERTY, and NOT YOURS. My life originates and is generated from my physical, biological materials, which is ALSO my sole property, on which i am the ONLY JUSTIFIABLE FINAL AUTHORITY.

If you choose to try to claim my life or any part of my person, or any of my rightful property, i will choose to act to prevent you from ever accomplishing that violation, and if i don't think you'll cease and desist willingly, i will eliminate you from my spectrum of threats. If you instigate and initiate unnecessary violent conflict with me, you forfeit my acknowledgement of your right to self-ownership, and i will treat you exactly like a wild animal, instead of a human being.

If you want to act like an animal, i'll treat you like one. If you want to act humane and civil, i'll leave you to your own vices and devices, as long as you choose to refrain from interfering with me.

ginwilly said:

Or....

We could assume people take better care of their own property.

To leap to all private property being pristine... well, we would only do that if we were losing an internet debate.

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No, I am as opposed to nationalization as I am to privatization. His example is one of state property being polluted. I pointed to the fact that it would be very simple for me to find far worse on private land.

But people who respect the earth enough not to think that they own it, well they sound like indigenous people. In other words, they sound like people who are native to this fucking planet.

reasonevangelist said:

Property rights ARE human rights

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Thanks for your opinion.

abandonconflict said:

No, I am as opposed to nationalization as I am to privatization. His example is one of state property being polluted. I pointed to the fact that it would be very simple for me to find far worse on private land.

But people who respect the earth enough not to think that they own it, well they sound like indigenous people. In other words, they sound like people who are native to this fucking planet.

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So I can take a casino?

Many instances of renters not taking care of rentals, not just government owned property.

Can I own a vehicle?

NLXSK1 said:

The government built this housing project in Chicago named Cabrini Green. It was for low/no income housing for the poor. Within a few decades the entire project had to be bulldozed because it was a condemned condition.

When people do not own property they have no incentive to take care of it.

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Idk... i think "evolved types" like myself, tend to take care of anything we borrow or use, as if it were our own. Anytime anyone lends me anything, or gives me something i couldn't acquire on my own, i try even harder to protect it as well as possible, because how will i replace it otherwise?

And as far as housing projects... why would anyone want to live in filth and squalor? If someone GIVES me a place to stay, for free, i'm going to keep it in the best possible condition, out of both appreciation, and the fact that i don't want to live in unacceptable conditions.

Things that are easily gained and easily replaced, tend to get neglected and abused. Some people actually understand and value the effort required to maintain things that aren't easily replaced or repaired... but a disturbing amount seem to either miss or disregard that.

NLXSK1 said:

If property is neither privately owned nor government owned. Who owns it? And who maintains it? And who pays for that maintenance? And who decides the disposition of property if nobody owns it? Is it by committee? And when there is disagreement about management, who reconciles the differences?

Privately owned shit is so much simpler....

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Furthermore: when there is not enough of a resource to supply all of the demand for it, how do we decide who is allotted what no one can own, and who must be deprived?

Mob rule is bad, mkay? I don't need the dictation of my life, livelihood, well-being and pursuits, socialized... especially not by people who give no shits about what i experience during my existence, and are readily willing to deprive me and others, for the sake of their own benefit.

abandonconflict said:

No, I am as opposed to nationalization as I am to privatization. His example is one of state property being polluted. I pointed to the fact that it would be very simple for me to find far worse on private land.

But people who respect the earth enough not to think that they own it, well they sound like indigenous people. In other words, they sound like people who are native to this fucking planet.

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Abandoned... Lets deal with logic for a moment.

The ownership of property, assets, and other things has to be someones.. It is either privately held or it is held by some group. The government is one group, unions are a group, etc. You cannot have objects that have absolutely no ownership. If there were, who would be responsible for them? If nobody is responsible for anything then who decides where and when to build a building? If nobody is responsible for that building who decides what it is used for? If it is a business who buys the equipment and materials to manufacture?

You postulate this world where nothing is owned by anyone and thus nothing is controlled or maintained by anyone.

What is my motivation to work if none of what I produce is mine?