A/C vs. IceBox & Water Chiller

Todesengel said:

I'm gonna throw the BS flag right here. I have a 1/4hp JBJ Artica chiller, and they are not designed to cool below 20 degrees below ambient. Infact, most 1/10hp to 1/3hp can only cool 20-25degrees below ambient RUNNING THE COMPRESSOR 24/7! I spoke with JBJ tech support and they informed me that in any low end chiller, the compressors is a tropical compressor and not a cold water compressor. Using a low end chiller is not efficient in ANYWAY possible.

I am running an 8" Icebox, an 700cfm fan, 50gallon cooling res, and the 1/4hp chiller. With my 1000w bulb, ambient temps in my sealed 7x7 closet hit 81 degress with 85% RH. Keep in mind the chiller compressor was running 24/7 too.

Long story short, I am ditching the icebox for a portable AC unit and I will just have to deal with the c02 loss through the venting. Unless I can find a 3/4hp chiller for cheap somewhere, but I don't think its gonna happen.

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Dude, pm me, there are some easy solutions that will eliminate co2 loss with portable ac units

Guys, the scale is completely wrong for using water coils.
We need larger applications i.e. hospitals, office buildings etc. to make chillers practical. (not talking aquarium chillers for nutrient tanks here). We can serve dozens of water coils with one chiller, where as we only feed a single evaporator with package or split systems. Yes, some refrigeration applications serve multiple evaporators (super market refrigeration for example), but that is not what we are talking about.
Just look at it this way, if it was more economical we would be using it as our primary air conditioning in the residential market. If you have a ground water source close by (big ass tank under ground, or a lake) then we can start to talk possible benefits, other then that it is not going to be more economical, in fact the opposite is true!

I use a 100 gal of water outdoors, on the shade side, in a garbage bin. That will sink a 1000w Fresca Sol quite well.
For the Summer, I can add a window AC with it's chiller coil in the water for the very hot days and for the medium hot days, I pump to the dis-used hot tub that has a sprayer set in a foot of water at the bottom. Air evap cooling.

If I can remove the light's heat, I can place it 4-5 inches above the plant. Much better. The room heat I can take care of with air circulation from under the house.

unity said:

Guys, the scale is completely wrong for using water coils.
We need larger applications i.e. hospitals, office buildings etc. to make chillers practical. (not talking aquarium chillers for nutrient tanks here). We can serve dozens of water coils with one chiller, where as we only feed a single evaporator with package or split systems. Yes, some refrigeration applications serve multiple evaporators (super market refrigeration for example), but that is not what we are talking about.
Just look at it this way, if it was more economical we would be using it as our primary air conditioning in the residential market. If you have a ground water source close by (big ass tank under ground, or a lake) then we can start to talk possible benefits, other then that it is not going to be more economical, in fact the opposite is true!

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You are actually incorrect. I currently run a 12hp chiller. They are actually more efficient then an a/c unit, remove heat faster, use less electricity, and will run less because of this. I have a 5 ton water cooled air handler on my chiller and it runs about half the time when the lights are on and 25% of the time when they are off. Before that I had 2 24,000btu minisplit, 1 18,000btu minisplit, and a 12,000btu minisplit throughout the entire op and almost all of them ran 60=80% of the time. Nothing else has changed except now I run less fans. My electrical bill dropped almost 40%.

More and more homes are actually using the technology now and as advances are made and more companies start making chillers for residential purposes then you will start to see the prices drop. I have a 5hp chiller for my house that runs 2 3ton air handlers. I build high end spec homes for a living and we are actually using the systems in a lof of our installations now because of the efficiency and savings of them.

phillipchristian said:

You are actually incorrect. I currently run a 12hp chiller. They are actually more efficient then an a/c unit, remove heat faster, use less electricity, and will run less because of this. I have a 5 ton water cooled air handler on my chiller and it runs about half the time when the lights are on and 25% of the time when they are off. Before that I had 2 24,000btu minisplit, 1 18,000btu minisplit, and a 12,000btu minisplit throughout the entire op and almost all of them ran 60=80% of the time. Nothing else has changed except now I run less fans. My electrical bill dropped almost 40%.

More and more homes are actually using the technology now and as advances are made and more companies start making chillers for residential purposes then you will start to see the prices drop. I have a 5hp chiller for my house that runs 2 3ton air handlers. I build high end spec homes for a living and we are actually using the systems in a lof of our installations now because of the efficiency and savings of them.

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Dude, if you are going to talk shit on me, at least read the post.

"Just look at it this way, if it was more economical we would be using it as our primary air conditioning in the residential market. If you have a ground water source close by (big ass tank underground, or a lake) then we can start to talk possible benefits, other then that it is not going to be more economical, in fact the opposite is true!"

That is what I said, and I stand by it. If your split systems had higher operating costs then the 12hp chiller & 5 ton air handler, they were not installed proper, sorry. There are many factors that can reduce cooling capacity.
Your chiller may be more efficient by itself lol, but by the time you send the chilled water through the water coil you have used additional pumps, as well as a air handler and your actual temperature drop is far lower on a water coil then an refrigerant coil, sorry facts bro. Your maintenance on a chiller systems is far higher etc. By the time you are done on a small application it will not save you money over a mini split.


Now, one the reason chillers are more economical is because we burry the water holding tanks in the ground (constant temperature of around 60f in California) and actually run the chiller at night when electricity rates are far lower and use the chilled water during the day, but I wouldn't want to let technical info get in the way of you correcting me.

Bottom line is the chillers are great and can save money in the right application. At this point they are not more economical in typical residential applications. And we have not even started to talk about the effect water has on the piping and its associated maintenance.

unity said:

Dude, if you are going to talk shit on me, at least read the post.

"Just look at it this way, if it was more economical we would be using it as our primary air conditioning in the residential market. If you have a ground water source close by (big ass tank underground, or a lake) then we can start to talk possible benefits, other then that it is not going to be more economical, in fact the opposite is true!"

That is what I said, and I stand by it. If your split systems had higher operating costs then the 12hp chiller & 5 ton air handler, they were not installed proper, sorry. There are many factors that can reduce cooling capacity.
Your chiller may be more efficient by itself lol, but by the time you send the chilled water through the water coil you have used additional pumps, as well as a air handler and your actual temperature drop is far lower on a water coil then an refrigerant coil, sorry facts bro. Your maintenance on a chiller systems is far higher etc. By the time you are done on a small application it will not save you money over a mini split.


Now, one the reason chillers are more economical is because we burry the water holding tanks in the ground (constant temperature of around 60f in California) and actually run the chiller at night when electricity rates are far lower and use the chilled water during the day, but I wouldn't want to let technical info get in the way of you correcting me.

Bottom line is the chillers are great and can save money in the right application. At this point they are not more economical in typical residential applications. And we have not even started to talk about the effect water has on the piping and its associated maintenance.

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You really are clueless man. I wasn't talking shit to you but you can take it how you want. Your info is STILL wrong.

First off my minisplits weren't installed incorrectly. We've been doing this a while now; we know how to install a minisplit. The running costs on my chiller include the pumps as any chiller over 2hp has internal pumps and reservoirs. Nice try though. Your air handler is basically just a blower so I'm using about 500watts to run that. I know a lot about electricity and I can tell when my draw is less and when my bill is less. What maintenance on chiller systems are you talking about. They are the same principle as HVAC systems without the refrigerant running all over the place. They are actually easier to maintain and any parts that need to be replaced cost the same as an hvac unit would.

Burry holding tanks? You have to be joking. We are talking about 36,000-120,000btu of cooling. Not talking about cooling a skyscraper. Actually, the smaller your reservoir the more efficiently your chiller works. My 12hp chiller has 2 30gal reservoirs. It only has 2 because I need water at 2 different temps in my room. A good way to DIY a chiller line is to do this but if you are buying a commercial chiller then you aren't burying shit dude.

Your "fact bro" are WAY off. Before you start criticizing people you might actually want to research what you are talking about. Or maybe have a little practical application in the field. The fact that you talk about the "effect water has on piping" goes to show m you have no clue what you are talking about. Are you unable to PVC 2 pipes together then maybe you should stay away from water cooling. Maybe you should stay away from household repairs in general. How do you think the water lies to your faucets and showers are piped?

Don't try and talk shit about a subject you have no clue about. ALL of you information is wrong. So wrong I'm literally laughing at you right now.

Doer said:

I use a 100 gal of water outdoors, on the shade side, in a garbage bin. That will sink a 1000w Fresca Sol quite well.
For the Summer, I can add a window AC with it's chiller coil in the water for the very hot days and for the medium hot days, I pump to the dis-used hot tub that has a sprayer set in a foot of water at the bottom. Air evap cooling.

If I can remove the light's heat, I can place it 4-5 inches above the plant. Much better. The room heat I can take care of with air circulation from under the house.

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Frescas are nice but I wouldn;t buy into the 100 gallons per 1k myth. Maybe if it's real cold outside, my 1k could bring 100 gallons to over 100 degrees within a 12 hour cycle. Still works great and removes tons of heat though.

Also, while it is possible to run a 1k in a fresca a few inches from the plant tops without starting a fire, You will fry your babies. They still need to be kept at the recommended distance less 6 or 8" to offset the loss from the water and glass. Trust me on this one. I thought the same thing, I put 2 1ks in frescas with a chiller and 60 degree water in the magnum reflectors. Even 12" off the plants and they are pale ass yellow in 2 days. There is such a thing as too much light. I also noticed focused bands of hot spots with my frescas. Let me know if you experience the same thing.

I still own 3 units and a 1/2 hp homemade chiller. I certainly won't say I'll never use them again, but it just became to complex for my dyslexic brain.

unity said:

...if it was more economical we would be using it as our primary air conditioning in the residential market.

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No because the applications are totally different. With air cooling you are lowering the heat from the HPS bulbs, not the ambient room temperature. That's a huge difference.

Maybe they are more efficient than mini-splits. I wanted to do a mod and either have water dripping on the outside coils of a mini-split (that could be tricky to do though right) or using a pool or hot tub for the heat sink. You can't argue with earth/water cooling being more efficient than just air exchange. Still I don't agree at all on how they use the lighting for the HydroGen. Hard to beat a vertical bare bulb donut grow for gpw! Can't argue who gets more PAR to your plants.


Edit: Whoops, seems there are a lot of Ice Box returns and used ones up for sale (but the store owners still "love 'em"). I think NASA may even scratch their heads it looks so complicated - at least compared to spending $15 for a bare bulb mogul socket (or 2)...

It also has been tried for many decades - water cooling the outside condenser coils on an ac system w/mist systems. Any experienced HVAC tech will steer clear from them, and they can be a major PITA. Places in Texas won't let you install them because you're wasting too much water (not recirculated).

2 things that have reliably improved the technology: evap coolers used w/ac (our 10,000 sq ft family store actually used them), or geothermal source heat pumps. I do really like the idea of burying a nice sized water tank for a geothermal/water system, even put a fan + recirculating pump to reduce tank size and keep water cooler. The tds will eventually go up in the water tank using the fan part, unless you can reuse some water (call it grey water?) for the garden... Can also use solar hot water panels to help heat the underground water tank in winter (SEER can go thru the roof).

unity said:

Dude, pm me, there are some easy solutions that will eliminate co2 loss with portable ac units

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Can you PM me this info, it's exactly what I am looking for as I can't install a minisplit easily in my basement, I wanted a 10,000-12,000 BTU in-room unit, like one I found at walmart for $400... wanted Co2 as well, lol, that all together seemed to rain on my parade, I tried to PM you but I think since I have no post count I am unable to do so..

Would say scooby is the man to talk to but this is old and his old account already was on this.

chillers are the way to go. no doubt. i have built a 5k -rez and 11k -lights. but the 11k cant keep up. so im going to sell those off and work on this 18k that i just purchased.

what i know beyond a shadow of a doubt.... is chilling air with water is much more efficient than chilling air with air. chilling the air at each and every light is way better than having a duct blowing cool air that is mounted to a wall ten feet away. just my two cents.

Get a good chiller. I have a 1/2 hp active aqua. 2 lights and 3 ice boxes. It was so hot in the garage where the chiller is located, it was difficult to get the water temp down to 70 f. Scooby helped me a bit. He suggested 1 pump from res to chiller in a constant loop cooling the res. Use a 2nd pump to run into the ice boxes. This wasn't very effective until I put the 2nd pump, to the ice boxes, on a timer. On for 15 minutes,Off for 15 minutes. While this pump is off, the water temp will drop from 80 f down to 65-67. I also use an a/c. I was only running 1 600 watt, and I just turned the second 600 light on. Temps in the sealed room are 85-90 with lights on. Its' 100 f outside where the chiller is located. I'm sure it will run cooler in the winter.
I would like to get a 2hp chillking, run 2 x 1000 watts each with an ice box, 1 ice box on a carbon scrubber as a spot a/c, and use the chiller to maintain low nutrient temps too.
Water cooling takes some patience, and NoOne at my local hydro store was any help at all. Learned it all on RitUp. Thanks scooby, 3 weeks into the purple kush

I got lots of a/c's for sale;
3 window mounts 8k, 12k, 24k
1 27k mini split 220v
1 12k mini slit 110v
1 12k mini split 220v
1 13.5k coleman rooftop mount for a trailer
Will trade for Chill King!!!!!!!

why dont you just turn that 2hp mini split into a chiller? i spent 45 minutes on this 1.5hp window unit. need to build the cooler, hard wire the circuit board, and then tie it into my system. done.

the system i am using now... is cooling 3600w. then the ambient is cooling another 600 in mh, all of my ballasts, fans etc. with the help of my hvac it stays 80-82 degrees down there.

11k (1hp) diy chiller with 5 gallon rez. that pumps into a 25 gallon with a 200gph pump. where i have two worts. then a 1600gph pump takes that and pumps through six diy iceboxes. all of it cost me 800 bucks and is totally capable of keeping up with 2400 watts. with no hvac assistance.

I'm using bare bulb vertical in my grow room that's attached to my small house (spare bedroom). I have the grow room vent out of the room into my house w/8" fan and carbon filter + another 8" fan for intake. Those are on speed controllers and always running, exchanging air about every 2 minutes. An efficient mini-split heat pump for the grow room and old inefficient ac/baseboard heat for the house. So I set the house thermostat a little higher or lower than the mini-split (20+ SEER) depending on season. So I basically use my house as the lung room.

Just need to upgrade my house unit (7 SEER believe it or not) to an efficient heat pump as well (house already ducted). This seems to keep my electric bill lower as well as my plants happy. I even try to keep CO2 @ 800-1,000 ppm but NO higher. But yes I'm all ears as to using a chiller for my res, etc... I'm looking at Igloo coolers and Armaflex pipe insulation as well as flooming for added DO (dissolved O2).

A 7 SEER,must be over 25yrs old..Since going to the Scroll compressors my supplier Rheem did this i believe in 93,and dont even make A/C units with the ole Hermatic compressors, SEER ratings went from 9 to 12.Of course you have to change the Evaporitive coil to achieve this SEER cant just change Condensor.

BEECH

i will probably be selling this one in a week or two. but i have a friend that might want it. works flawlessly. runs fifteen minutes an hour to keep 90 gallons at 65. it ran ten minutes an hour to keep at 68. if you are interested let me know and ill find out if its available. i would sell it for what i have in it. which is about a buck fifty. its a half horse. plus ship. and 25 bucks to box and shitp. you would need to spend forty on a stainless wort, fifteen on two pumps, and snag a tmp-1 for twenty seven more.

SOMEBEECH said:

A 7 SEER,must be over 25yrs old..

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Yup SOMEBEECH, you hit the nail on the head. My 7 SEER Rheem was put in w/house in 1980. But still going strong, inefficiently though.

Stonefree69 said:

Yup SOMEBEECH, you hit the nail on the head. My 7 SEER Rheem was put in w/house in 1980. But still going strong, inefficiently though.

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Wish ya lived close id fix ya up Good.Get ya bout a 16-SEER heatpump and And over size evap.Coil by 1/2 ton to get a higher SEER.


BEECH