A Bored Electrician to Answer Your Questions

IAm5toned said:

tell him your gonna build a workshop....
power tools use serious power

you can run a 'thicker wire' to service all the components but if you do that, every plug you have would have to be rated @ 40amps and you just dont want to spend the money it would take to make that work out for you. what i was suggesting would be installing a 60amp breaker in the old panel, pulling a new cable for a small, 60amp panel in the grow room. in the smaller 60amp panel you can then have dedicated circuits for all the equipment, saving you alot of time, and money for long runs of wire going to your old panel. you need to be setup like this because the wire you need to carry all that power will be so big, it wont be able to connect to the plugs you want to add! for that much power your looking at a #6 cable, which is the size of a pinky finger... try fitting that under the the screws on a plug! it just wont work.... even if you somehow make it fit it will slip off in less than 6 months... if it doesnt work loose and burn before that...
like i said this one is really not a job for amatuers!

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Really? pinkie thick wire to each compenent.....

maybe im realy stoned and stupid but from what i have seen and worked on u run a large cable from the house panel to the power board then from the power board u run smaller wires to each compenents need... is that not right????

IAm5toned said:

ps- also not really sure by what you meant as sockets in the old powerboard... im assuming those are breakers

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shit man maybe im not being as clear as i shoudl i apologize.... i dont think i know the terminology but by sockets i mean like things u plug ur comepents into...

So on this power board there is a timer controlling 16 sockets( like 4 sqaures and in each 4 speaures there are 4 sockets/places to plug into) 1 row being 120 v and the other being 240 v

I wish i had a pic this would be much easier....

lifesgood said:

shit man maybe im not being as clear as i shoudl i apologize.... i dont think i know the terminology but by sockets i mean like things u plug ur comepents into...

So on this power board there is a timer controlling 16 sockets( like 4 sqaures and in each 4 speaures there are 4 sockets/places to plug into) 1 row being 120 v and the other being 240 v

I wish i had a pic this would be much easier....

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lol i wish u did to, ive never seen one of those and im interested in it for sure! lol

it sounds like the board you have was designed for much smaller equipment than what your wanting to add to it though...
ok i reread your orginal question and i think this is the answer you need:

a 6/3 romex cable with ground connected to a 60amp breaker should be just what you need to power up that powerboard. if it trips ill eat my shorts also, make sure you get the correct breaker type, and make damn sure it is the same brand as the housepanel. dont try putting a GE breaker in a Square D panel, for instance... you can find the breaker type by looking very closely at one of the old breakers in the housepanel, the type is printed on it somewhere

IAm5toned said:

ok, first thing you need to find out is what those wires you want to tap into are.

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Yes sir, the electric line stapled to the storage space wood frames.The electric line looks like it joins a couple of electrical outlets in the adjacent room (Bonus Room). I got my girlfriend to flip the circuit breaker switch labeled "bonus room" and have identified the circuit breaker switch controlling the line.

I'm guessing you had me identifiy it so i wouldn't shock the shit out of myself when cutting the line eh?

IAm5toned said:

i need the VOLTAGE and WATTTAGE or AMPERAGE of everything you want to plug in, ie- lamps and fans and controllers.. get me this and ill tell you what you need as far as wiring and devices...

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My specs for the two 600W Ballasts I want to power are:

2 Lumatek 600W Digital ballasts for HPS lamps
Voltage: 230V 50/60Hz
Current: 2.70A
Intput power: 620W
Output power: 600W
Power factor: >0.99
Voltage range: 165 to 265V
2 Aeroflo 36 Site Aeroponic systems (Bluestone pumps)
Voltage: AC 120v, 60Hz
Input Power: 116w
1 DeLonghe PAC L90 10k BTU Portable 'Dual Hose' AC Unit
Voltage: 115V 50/60 Hz
Input Power: 2930W
Current: 9.2A
1 8Inch High Output (747) can fan
Voltage: 115V, 60Hz
Input Power: 250W
Current: 2.3A Max

Of course the Sentinel CHHC-1 is also my CO2 Controller and will consume some small amounts of power adjusting the CO2 tank. I would also like to eventually add a 175W Metal Halide for a mother chamber in there, and I would also like to add a humidifier, and maybe some other small things. Are Quality Heavy Duty extension cords okay?

Also, I notice that whatever circuit i've got my ac unit hooked up to, it dims the lights a pretty good bit in the room When the AC Unit turns on. I wouldn't want my bonus room movie theater lights flickering when when it turns on. (That's why I would prefer to run extension cords through the attic from other rooms in the house).

hwy420 said:

Yes sir, the electric line stapled to the storage space wood frames.The electric line looks like it joins a couple of electrical outlets in the adjacent room (Bonus Room). I got my girlfriend to flip the circuit breaker switch labeled "bonus room" and have identified the circuit breaker switch controlling the line.

I'm guessing you had me identifiy it so i wouldn't shock the shit out of myself when cutting the line eh?



My specs for the two 600W Ballasts I want to power are:

2 Lumatek 600W Digital ballasts for HPS lamps
Voltage: 230V 50/60Hz
Current: 2.70A
Intput power: 620W
Output power: 600W
Power factor: >0.99
Voltage range: 165 to 265V
2 Aeroflo 36 Site Aeroponic systems (Bluestone pumps)
Voltage: AC 120v, 60Hz
Input Power: 116w
1 DeLonghe PAC L90 10k BTU Portable 'Dual Hose' AC Unit
Voltage: 115V 50/60 Hz
Input Power: 2930W
Current: 9.2A
1 8Inch High Output (747) can fan
Voltage: 115V, 60Hz
Input Power: 250W
Current: 2.3A Max

Of course the Sentinel CHHC-1 is also my CO2 Controller and will consume some small amounts of power adjusting the CO2 tank. I would also like to eventually add a 175W Metal Halide for a mother chamber in there, and I would also like to add a humidifier, and maybe some other small things. Are Quality Heavy Duty extension cords okay?

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ok... you have a couple of problems here. the ballasts are 240v,and the wire feeding the bonus room is 120v and if you make that wire a 240v circuit your gonna lose the power to the bonus room... you really need 120v ballasts for what you wanting to do. if it wasnt for that everything but the portable air conditioner would be able to run off of the the one #14 romex thats in the attic feeding the bonus room. however your using so much power that im afraid anything you have in the bonus room would have to go... anything more than a simple 40w bulb is going to trip the breaker. #14 you can pull 1800w. i have added up the load of everything but the a/c and its 1722watts. almost over the limit... adding any additional lamps is outta the question, to.

now the a/c by itself pulls enough power to need a dedicated 15amp circuit. im not sure i would even want to run it off of any cord, because it pulls enough power that voltage drop would be a real issue and would greatly shorten the life of the a/c compressor motor. but, if adding another circuit is simply not an option, i would get the best cord that money can buy, at least #12awg, prefferably #10awg and no longer than 100 ft, and just one cord, not two plugged into each other to make one long one.and plug it in to the least used circuit that you can get the cord to reach... and i say that because anything else being on the circuit that its plugged into will probably make the breaker trip.

you can see here you kinda have some equipment issues, because what you have is using more power than you have up there, unless you swap the ballasts to 120v your going to end up pulling two additional wires to your breakerbox; one for the 240v ballasts, and one for the 120v a/c.
either way the a/c kinda itself needs its own wire to the panel, especially if your going to be using it full time in the attic like i think you would be

IAm5toned said:

it will wear out the booster over time... it is designed as what we call a "non-continuous duty load" in other words, even though it puts out some serious amperage, it can only do so for short periods of time. hooking up a continuous linear load such as a motor will overwhelm the capacitors in the booster/charger and cause it too heat up... which will decrease the efficiency in a rate proportionate to the load... which causes built in thermal overload devices to burn up. bye bye charger. in non-geekspeak that means the more power you pull, the shorter its gonna last.... you can try it, but id hate to see you lose a good charger. they sure are handy... what you need is this:
http://www.colacinoelectric.com/P/9864
or this:
http://www.shopwiki.com/_Tripp+Lite+PR25+25-Amp+DC+Power+Supply+120VAC+Input+to+13.8VDC+Output?o=1015243913&s=3885&

if you look at the prices you might want to consider what i said about the cheap wal mart box fans... all u gotta do is plug it in, and u could probably get 10 fans for the price of 1 power supply that is big enough for what you need.
another thing to consider is this: even though the fans are 12v and what we would call low voltage, its not going to save you any cash on your power bill. a watt, is a watt, is a watt, is what we say in the trade, regardless of the voltage the power company is going to bill you for it. as a matter of fact, since the fans you have are 12v, there gonna use alot of power.. 300watts per fan to be exact. compare that to the box fan that uses only 43w! its up to you, but myself, i would put the car fans on ebay, make a buck off of em instead spending 100's.

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I thought for sure I would save money using this set up to save me from buying a can fan to attach to my carbon filter to remove odor. Those fans can get pricey.

+reps dude...what a great read!!
I stumbled across this thread cause I was contemplating using a pc fan in my Stage II clone box... running a 130W Spectrum 14000k.
I was just gonna stick it in there, until I was reading on the packaging not to use it in an enclosed space without adequate ventilation... so anyway I was originally was wondering how Id hook it up, and then it dawned on me that the dead pc it'll be coming from also has a power supply that plugs into it.... I know youve answered this with the model trains motor speed controller, My follow up question to this is, is the train controller just a more practical lower wattage option, and I could get away with using my big lug power supply til the shops open on monday, or am I actually playing with fire by using it... Im just hangin to get that light over the babies and get them on their way(this is my first ever batch of clones...second grow). I suppose being sunday tomorrow I may be able to get down to the local markets and pick up a second hand train set... give me something to do whilst waiting for plants to flower
Thanks in advance mate, youve made alot of sense on this thread

Troy

Troyboy said:

+reps dude...what a great read!!
I stumbled across this thread cause I was contemplating using a pc fan in my Stage II clone box... running a 130W Spectrum 14000k.
I was just gonna stick it in there, until I was reading on the packaging not to use it in an enclosed space without adequate ventilation... so anyway I was originally was wondering how Id hook it up, and then it dawned on me that the dead pc it'll be coming from also has a power supply that plugs into it.... I know youve answered this with the model trains motor speed controller, My follow up question to this is, is the train controller just a more practical lower wattage option, and I could get away with using my big lug power supply til the shops open on monday, or am I actually playing with fire by using it... Im just hangin to get that light over the babies and get them on their way(this is my first ever batch of clones...second grow). I suppose being sunday tomorrow I may be able to get down to the local markets and pick up a second hand train set... give me something to do whilst waiting for plants to flower
Thanks in advance mate, youve made alot of sense on this thread

Troy

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you should be fine, you could use the pc power supply forever. the train controller was for someone that wanted to be able to control the speed of the fans...

Downfoemythang said:

I thought for sure I would save money using this set up to save me from buying a can fan to attach to my carbon filter to remove odor. Those fans can get pricey.

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its up to you really... with the d/c fans your trading the high cost of the can fans for higher power usage, the can fans run using alot les power but cost you alot more out of pocket...

you could also try using a 1000w ac/dc converter. (converts FROM 120vac TO 12vdc)

Hey, in the process of setting everything up, I will be running 6 (1k) hps in the sealed flowering room (20x11x hooked up to a mlc-8xt 220v, and 12" vortex pushing the carbon filter and 2 8" vortex fans cooling the lights, planning on using the hydro-gen co2 gen using r/o filter waste water to cool. flowering room has a 2 ton ac hooked up. Running 3 tables with 1 pump per table.

veg. room (10x10xwill be hand watered, running 1 (1k) mh cooled with 8" ice box pulling r/o waste water and 2-3 t-5 4ft x 8 bulb florescents, and 1 ez-cloner, no ac.

I also have a 220v house purging fan that i am planning on using to clear the area out side of both rooms to keep the temps down. and a basic r/o filter supplying both rooms with agua.

from what I saw the breaker box supports 90 amps? im a laymen in terms of electrical so wondering if I will have to add another box, there are about 6-8 open 110v breakers now, can 2 of the 110v can be combined to support the 220v mlc-8xt?

i want everything in this grow to be clean and done right! any help is appreciated, we are just about done with framing and pondering plumbing and electrical, would you recommend doing drywall then doing the electric? ballasts will be housed above the ceiling out of the room. should i install outlets in the ceiling for the t-5s and in the vicinity of the vent fans i will be using?

sorry so scatterbrained, just trying to trouble shoot before the trouble.

thanks

the smileys should be 8's
10x10x8
20x11x8

theSDcollective said:

Hey, in the process of setting everything up, I will be running 6 (1k) hps in the sealed flowering room (20x11x hooked up to a mlc-8xt 220v, and 12" vortex pushing the carbon filter and 2 8" vortex fans cooling the lights, planning on using the hydro-gen co2 gen using r/o filter waste water to cool. flowering room has a 2 ton ac hooked up. Running 3 tables with 1 pump per table.

veg. room (10x10xwill be hand watered, running 1 (1k) mh cooled with 8" ice box pulling r/o waste water and 2-3 t-5 4ft x 8 bulb florescents, and 1 ez-cloner, no ac.

I also have a 220v house purging fan that i am planning on using to clear the area out side of both rooms to keep the temps down. and a basic r/o filter supplying both rooms with agua.

from what I saw the breaker box supports 90 amps? im a laymen in terms of electrical so wondering if I will have to add another box, there are about 6-8 open 110v breakers now, can 2 of the 110v can be combined to support the 220v mlc-8xt?

i want everything in this grow to be clean and done right! any help is appreciated, we are just about done with framing and pondering plumbing and electrical, would you recommend doing drywall then doing the electric? ballasts will be housed above the ceiling out of the room. should i install outlets in the ceiling for the t-5s and in the vicinity of the vent fans i will be using?

sorry so scatterbrained, just trying to trouble shoot before the trouble.

thanks

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that is one badass setup... ive always wanted one myself just like that but lack the funds and space
since your still in the framing stage, that gives you alot of freedom of movement to put things where they need to be. this is the ideal setup, because the last thing you want are cords running around everywhere! take the time to visualize exactly where everything is going to go and put the plugs where they need to be. having ceiling plugs is a great idea... you can put plugs wherever you want them!
just when running the wire, only work one circuit at a time, that way you dont get things mixed up...
i would reccomend having all wiring recessed and in place before you hang drywall. its a bitch drilling out the studs, its hard work and makes a mess BUT the recessed wiring makes it alot easier in the long run and is well worth the extra effort. that way everything is safe from physical damage and just out of the way for painting and sterilizing purposes.

all your wire needs to be #12copper... some of equipment you have could be run on #14 but since it looks like to me you have a continuous duty operation i would just go with #12 all around. better safe than sorry!

for the flowering room lights alone, your going to need a 2pole 30amp breaker to run the 240v ballasts. also means you will need 240volt receptacles for the ballasts. this is a dedicated circuit, lights and timer only. of course your going to want a timer controlling these lights.. and 240v timers are not exactly cheap but i would reccomend this:
http://www.goodmart.com/products/993800.htm

(you can also find additional 120v timers for veg of the same style at the same site.)

the tables will need a 15amp GFCI breaker with a dedicated receptacle for each table.

the purging fan will need a dedicated 15amp double pole breaker.

for all the fans i would use (1) 20amp breaker, have one plug for each fan.

the veg room will require (1) 20amp circuit for everything you have in there, but if you expand in the future you will need to add another circuit later on

for anything else id run another 20amp circuit and put plugs where you need them or want them.

thats a total of 8 breaker spaces. if you need help with how the circuitry needs to be, dont be afraid to ask... my dream job would be building what you have

Thanks for all the great info 5toned.
Here is a stupid question...if you have a 600w digital ballast running a 250w light does it consume more power than if you used a 250w ballast to run the same light?

I only need a 250w now but might get a bigger ballast so I can upgrade in the future.
Thanks

FreeLeaf said:

Thanks for all the great info 5toned.
Here is a stupid question...if you have a 600w digital ballast running a 250w light does it consume more power than if you used a 250w ballast to run the same light?

I only need a 250w now but might get a bigger ballast so I can upgrade in the future.
Thanks

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it actually uses less power than a 250w ballast would.. ill explain why later but first:

a 600w ballast usually uses up to 30w regardless of the lamp size or type; the ballast does not actually use this 30w persay as energy, it is the heat generated by the ballast... the phenomenom is called electrical hysteresis, or heat loss.

this means your 250w lamp and ballast combination is pulling roughly 280w. if you had a 600w lamp it would pull 630w

in actuallity, its always better to have a bigger ballast than the size lamp you need. the reason being that as you approach the maximum wattage, the ballast loses efficiency. this is because they get there rating by how much current they can carry before they overheat and fail. laws of thermodynamics say that the more energy the ballast uses the more heat is generated, and since the heat being generated is energy in itself, that energy comes from your electricity.. thats the 30w... (30w=1.7btu's per min) now in this case a bigger ballast is better, because it physically has more metal to carry the current before it starts to heat up... smaller ballasts get hot faster than big ballasts because they have less metal in them...

so in laymans terms the bigger the ballast the better, because the more power you use = the more power you lose due to heat loss = more cash out of pocket in the long run on your electric bill

edit:
on an interesting note i have found a few articles by engineers on the subject of digital ballasts being inefficient because of the charecteristics of a non-linear load (this means the current changes constantly, it never stays at a steady rate), and how many large buildings have problems with there electricity usage because of this

IAm5toned said:

you pull more than 20 amps through a plug and its gonna melt unless its a rated 30amp receptacle with at least #12 copper wire connected to it. you might want to think about that.... thats why the breaker trips, its getting hot.

im afraid about the only solutions to what your asking is to distribute the load as evenly as possible on as many different circuits you can. this can be a real pain in the ass, because in older houses all the plugs in one area are typically the same circuit... which means your limited to either buying some heavy duty cords to get to plugs in another area, or hiring a pro to run some new wire for you...

HOWEVER there are other options to consider, you can reduce the wattage of your lamps and get the proper k temp for what your trying to do. higher than 4000k for veg and lower than 3000k for flower...

cfl's are great to, considering you can have 21 42w cfl's in place of just one of those 1000w lamps, and you can get good results mixing spectrums...
i grew this with 4 cfl's in organic soil with absolutely no nutes or fertilizers:
https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/239822-play-guessing-game.html

led lamps are also another good low wattage solution but are expensive as hell in my opinion and you need a few of them to do it right.

old houses with old wiring are almost always fire traps. you have to be carefull adding equipment that uses alot of wattage, as the old wires and plugs simply were not designed with todays power consumptions in mind.

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maybe I'm asking the wrong question sorry if i'm being repetative this time

I run

2X1000 watt 120volt lights, 700+ cfm fan, 2X6ft light track

that pretty much uses around 20 amps give or take

plus I have the climate control shit and i'd like that running on another breaker

???how costly would it be to add 2 breakers/circuits (the switch) to the box and wire the plugs a room away. what amperage would I need for each???

Where i lived last I didn't need as much equipment to control the environment, and the 2 lights and fan alone on one breaker would cause the switch to flip every now and then even though they were on it's own line.

Where i'm moving next, (can't grow where I live this year) I have a sort of friend that was an electrician for a few years.

how much would it cost for an electrician (parts alone) to run new wire for me and maybe add these two cuicuts???

billdubz785 said:

maybe I'm asking the wrong question sorry if i'm being repetative this time

I run

2X1000 watt 120volt lights, 700+ cfm fan, 2X6ft light track

that pretty much uses around 20 amps give or take

plus I have the climate control shit and i'd like that running on another breaker

???how costly would it be to add 2 breakers/circuits (the switch) to the box and wire the plugs a room away. what amperage would I need for each???

Where i lived last I didn't need as much equipment to control the environment, and the 2 lights and fan alone on one breaker would cause the switch to flip every now and then even though they were on it's own line.

Where i'm moving next, (can't grow where I live this year) I have a sort of friend that was an electrician for a few years.

how much would it cost for an electrician (parts alone) to run new wire for me and maybe add these two cuicuts???

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the circuit tripped where you used to live because 2100w is too much for a 20amp circuit unless its #12 copper wire.... you need to take the fan and the track light off that circuit
OR
upgrade to a 25amp breaker. there hard to find but do exist
OR
put the fan on one circuit and lights on another. this is the best bet and safest way.

but to add 2 120v 20amp circuits with breakers switches and wire your looking at roughly 100-125$ in parts... thats if you go expensive on switches/plugs and have long runs of wire to run. its more labor than anything else, the wire will be by far the most expensive part. the 20amp breakers themselves shouldnt be more than 5$ apeice, and the plugs shouldnt be either unless your getting gfci's

AS a fellow electrician may i say this..........SOME OF YOU SCARE ME!,,,,,, If ur not comftorable with electricity call a pro its really not worth it with the kind of power some people are requiring from there services.....dedicated circuits run to the proper wire ampacity is an absolute must ... dont mean to be a downer but i think most will agree ya dont mess with electricity...... cheers

ralph9021 said:

AS a fellow electrician may i say this..........SOME OF YOU SCARE ME!,,,,,, If ur not comftorable with electricity call a pro its really not worth it with the kind of power some people are requiring from there services.....dedicated circuits run to the proper wire ampacity is an absolute must ... dont mean to be a downer but i think most will agree ya dont mess with electricity...... cheers

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yeah alot of the questions i get people are wanting to add like 4-5kw to 100 amp service and it makes me nervous thinking about that. people need to be aware of the differences between what is called a non-continous duty load, and a continous duty load... lighting systems for growing purposes are going to be a continous duty load, which in order to be safe that means you have to spend the cash to do it right.... unfortunatly often this means upgrading the entire electrical service to the house, mains in from the street, panles and everything.... because people often forget about the power there already using.. like from centeral heating/air systems, water heaters, washer/dryers kitchen equipment etc etc. like ive said before, a good trick to pull is to find an electrician in the phonebook that does free estimates, tell him your going to build a workshop (they use alot of power, like lighting systems) and give him how many amps you need... he will let you know what you will have to do, then you can make the decision and decide whether or not you are cabable of doing the work yourself, or hiring a pro. often for a small fee an electrical contractor can 'walk you through' the work that needs to be done. most of them are pretty decent people... give it a try.

when adding heavy duty lighting systems having the proper service going to the house to begin with is critical, and this is something you need to have a professional determine on site, in person. never try to "guess" or assume that just because you have empty spaces in a panel you can add whatever you want to it... they might be empty because something had to be taken off of it!

and the advice i give should be for design purposes only, or to help people that are otherwise stuck or need technical assistance. never attempt something your uncomfortable with when dealing with electricity, and make sure your aware of all the dangers present. theres a reason why you need a license to do electrical work.

Maybe you can help with a question about variacs/autotransformers. When using a variac as a fan control is it safe to run more than one fan from the same variac? The one in question is rated 11 amps which is plenty to handle the 465cfm squirrel cage and the 8" can fan.

Either fan works fine individually from the power supplied by the variac, just not sure if it's safe to use more than one device at the same time.

tia