2013:The year of White Led Horticultural Lights

Discussion in 'LED and other Lighting' started by stardustsailor, May 12, 2013.

  1.  
    stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member

  2.  
    stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member

    We have created light spectra for driving both plants leaf growth and flowering, which is desirable in many applications where plants should flower (quickly) and we have a light spectra which drives plants to use all energy to develop leaves while delaying flowering.

    Not that difficult to do .....
    Neutral Whites vs Warm Whites ....
    ;-)


    .......


    HA! .....

    1) Valoya AP67 – General Growth Spectrum

    ...Appearance to humans: Pinkish light
    2) Valoya AP673 – Growth Spectrum for Leafy Green Vegetables

    Appearance to humans: Peach-tone

    3) NS2 – Compactness. Full Spectrum White

    Appearance to humans: White.

    4) AP67S ARCH – Architectural Applications

    Appearance to humans: Warm white. Note: This is not a common ‘warm white’ spectrum used in commercially available LED lights. It is a spectrum strongly related to the original AP67, thus very efficient in plant growth, yet human eye friendly.




    ..

    P5126548.JPG ... P5126549.JPG ..
    He-he..
  3.  
    stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member

    Producing high quality plants with LED lighting

    To produce a high quality plant, it is not enough to use just red and blue light typically found in conventional horticultural LEDs. The same applies for High Pressure Sodium lights, which are dominantly yellow.


    A good balanced ratio between red and blue light, needs to be complemented with far-red and green in right proportions for the right applications.

    For example far-red, 700–800 nm is critical for flowering of many plants.

    Less is known about the green, 500–600 nm area, but recent research is finally able to conclude that this is also important for plant development.

    Besides being potentially harmful, plants also show photomorphogenic responses to UV-B (280-315 nm) radiation. Both UV-B and UV-A (315-400 nm) radiation are important in inducing production of phenolics, anthocyanins (coloration) and antioxidants in plants. Thus the full spectrum from about 350–750 nm at a suitable light intensity is interesting in plant cultivation. The key is then to create a light which is optimally suitable for its task, by balancing the different areas so that the plant gets the right energy and signals to achieve the growers’ goals.
  4.  
    djwimbo

    djwimbo Active Member

    I'm on the "White & Red" bandwagon, but A51... hopefully see some progress soon.

  5.  
    RainerRocks

    RainerRocks Active Member

    I never was never one to believe this red/blue thing..nature knows best and knows way more than we know.
  6.  
    stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member

    Now ...For the "W&R school " DIYers ...
    It's good to keep in mind several basic " facts ",when building a W&R led horticultural light ....

    -Modern white leds ( "Phosphor Conversion " and not " RGB chip " ) are not made for plant cultivation .
    They are made to serve different applications ,regarding human vision and only .
    So ,there is not such a thing as the "perfect white led for plant growth " .

    Different kinds of White pc leds ,have to be used to achieve a plant cultivating light spectrum ...

    -Some amount of red leds ,at the region 640-660 nm ,has to be used ,in order to supplement ,
    the "deep red" part of the white light ...( Thus turning it also into pinkish -peach colored ).
    Less while vegging ,more while flowering/ fruiting ....

    The basic White leds that can be used for horticultural purposes :

    Neutral White 4000-5000 K .

    If of low-mid CRI type ( 60-80 ) ,then this led ,most probably is made out of a blue die at 430-450 nm and a broadpeak green/yellow or yellow phosphor .
    Basic provider of blue & green wls ,useful at vegging stage of a plant .Different bins/ temperatures ,provide more or less blue .

    If of High CRI (>90) type ,then this led is most probably made out of a blue die at 440-460 nm and a mix of two phosphors ( green + red ) .
    Still a basic provider of blue and green ,but now it provides some red wls also ..( usually at 620-640 nm range )..
    But with a cost in efficiency ... (Slightly less efficient -radiometrically always - than low-mid CRI NWs ..)


    Warm White 3000-2700 K

    If of low-mid CRI type ( 60-80 ) ,then this led ,most probably is made out of a blue die at 440-460 nm and a broadpeak yellow or yellow /amber phosphor .
    Basic provider of yellow/amber (580-620 nm ) ,probably useful at both vegging & flowering stages, of a plant .
    Different bins/ temperatures ,provide more or less blue .( and yellow/ambers of course ..)

    If of High CRI (>90) type ,then this led is most probably made out of a blue die at 440-460 nm and a mix of two phosphors ( green + red ).
    Basic provider of red,deep red & far red wls ,useful at flowerin/fruiting stage of a plant .Different bins/ temperatures ,provide more or less red/deep red/ far red wls .Also,slightly less radiometrically efficient than low-mid CRI WWs ...
  7.  
    PetFlora

    PetFlora Well-Known Member

    SDS, not sure I follow this -Some amount of red leds ,at the region 640-660 nm ,has to be used ,in order to supplement ,
    the "deep red" part of the white light ...( Thus turning it also into pinkish -peach colored ).
    Less while vegging ,more while flowering/ fruiting ....


    Are you saying "if the bulb has deep red then it needs also some 640-660, or, that 640-660 is essential to mmj fruiting?
  8.  
    pepperdust

    pepperdust Member

    good links..

    lets not forget though EVO was ahead of everyone, also putting in cree chips.



    also, don't forget to look at graphs, some WW have very high 640 or 660nm ranges.. all dependent on company of course

    what I see wrong right now, is every white I've looked at lacks 470nm range, and most lacking 660nm range. but whites can veg just fine for some reason missing 470nm
  9.  
    Chimone

    Chimone Active Member

    I really do like the Area 51 SGS-160 white and reds

    But I would like a little more power......... say 300W and all for a low price of < $500
    I'd be more than happy to give you my money right now for that.
  10.  
    djwimbo

    djwimbo Active Member

    One thing I find interesting, the Induction + Red came around about the same time as white LED + Red. I don't know if it's exactly coincidence, but full spec supplemented with reds seemed to be the trend I was following. Either way, I'm still a believer in the sun. Since I'm stuck indoors, I figure I should emulate the sun as best I can. There will be some trade offs, and I'm sure arguments(let's be civil), but I like whites.
  11.  
    djwimbo

    djwimbo Active Member

    That would be at, or below cost, for XPE/XPG's.
    Running anything but Cree LED's will potentially/probably lower the price.

    I had contemplated building/ordering/buying a custom panel, it's still not out of the realm of possibilities, but I already have the SGS-160. No need to fix what isn't broken. The light intensity is well, intense. @ 18" temps are on the warm side of healthy. If you have the headroom, I have no doubt this would support some leggy ladies.
  12.  
    stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member

    What I'm trying to" say " is this (regarding reds ) :

    Deep red phosphors( peaks ranging 640-670 nm ) are not used in white led manufacturing .....
    (Because of their large portion ,beyond 700 nm ...Photometrically not efficient ....
    Deep red ( at peak) phosphors convert blue photons ,into a significant amount of ..non-visible photons ....
    Not good at all ,for human vision utilisation ..
    But ....
    Perfect for Emerson Effect ,regarding horticultural use ...
    For example,amongst others ...

    ( While Valoya's custom made leds , most probably use such phosphors ..
    -the deep orange phosphor -....
    Those leds emmit red-pink light ,when lit ...
    v leds.JPG ....
    http://www.valoya.com/brochures/document/horticultural-lighting-guide?format=raw )

    Then those deep red wls ,have to be supplied by another alternative source ..
    The deep red leds .....

    And if those deep reds ,are used excessively while vegging ,some plants may show 'adverse effects " ....
    While in flowering or fruiting of a plant (mj-tomatoes-strawberries-etc ) ,it is beneficial for the crop ,
    the light to have plenty of these red photons at region 640-660 nm ....


    The exact color (nm ) & number/bins/power of the red leds used ,is directly relative to the type and power of Warm whites used along ,in the fixture ...


    Generally speaking ,regarding mj ,I trust that ,overall light should incline to the "warm " (red ) side ....
    Even in vegging ....
    Not so much deep reds then to be used ,but still mj needs more yellows/ambers/reds ,than blue ..
    Even while vegging ....
  13.  
    PetFlora

    PetFlora Well-Known Member

    I know you agree with this: The spectrum of light the plant uses efficiently changes with the intensity. At low light levels red is used most then blue, just like the chlorophyl charts. As the light gets brighter more blue is used, and more. The break point is reached about 50% of max leaf capacity then green starts coming on. As the intensity continues up red and blue remain steady but green use continues to grow until at maximum it is almost half of all the light energy being used.

    But not this (it seems): As one can see, the CREE Neutral White (I call it 'Goldilocks', because it's almost 'just right' ) has a RSPD that still allows nearly ~25% of its total power in the blue range (and plants only really 'need' ~8-10%), and more that 1/3 of which (i.e. the area under the curve) is over ~580nm or so (which has a Photosynthetic RS of over 90%!) - which is much better than even your typical 'Enhanced HPS'. Couple that with strong white light (green-response chlorophyll extending throughout and deep into leaf structures, with a net effect at or near that of the (mostly) surface-level blue and reds), which also takes care of most of the ~660nm+ you actually need for photomorphogenesis - and you can get by with 630nm reds just fine.

    (i.e. 630nm red is ~95% of the PSR of 660nm, AND they currently still have ~20-30% greater radiometric efficiency - as well as being cheaper than the deep reds - so there's more 'bang for the buck'):

    Now, this info is within a few days of one year ago. Please enlighten me

    In the mean time I am currently growing 2 clones under NW/WW household LEDs globe bulbs, with plans to use only these throughout, so we will see. Click on sig link to follow
  14.  
    stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member

    In
    HPS light environments bee hives have to be kept

    closed until day light is available as the bumble bees
    can not navigate under the HPS

    spectrum.

    Also ,yellow light attracts white-flies ,while mosquitos do not see this light (or just do not like it ) ...

    And many more surrounding the mystery triangle :
    " Yellow light wls -Pollinating & non-pollinating ,daytime or nocturnal insects-Flowering Plants and flowering promotion " .....
  15.  
    stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member


    I agree with both statements ....

    Still when i.e. one uses -massive amounts of - high CRI warm whites,
    that peak around 630 nm
    ,then
    the deep red part has to be supplemented ...

    And no ..
    That's what I thought too ,at start ...
    That red wls above ~650 nm are mainly used for photomorphogenesis ....
    Well ....Not ,exactly ....
    After seeing the difference between ~620 reds and ~640 nm reds (Astir panels ) ,I was pretty much
    convinced ,that deep red wls ( ~640- 660 nm ) ,promote a massive flowering (* or fruiting )....

    They just have to be used correctly ...
    (Easy thing to say,only ....Doing so, is kinda ..tricky ... )
    .....


    Do not forget this :Of a " Full Spectrum "(for plant growth )is a light ,
    that has a continuous spectral curve/line ,throught the ~ 350-750 nm range ....
    (and not of the ,so oftenly used , " PAR 400-700nm " range )
    In certain "shape"_with 'valleys' and 'peaks ' _,regarding the wanted "effect " or "goal " ....
  16.  
    PetFlora

    PetFlora Well-Known Member

    So you saw what Astir did (me too), BUT, did he compare it to a fixture that peaked at 630? I don't think so. And don't forget HilReigns complete grow using only WWs
  17.  
    stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member

    osram's 4 led  phosphors.jpg osram's 4 led  phosphors 2.jpg .......

    Osram's four main phosphors used in Oslons .

    ( My own hard guess:

    -LCW.CC : Blend of Red & Green phosphors . ( ~550 nm & ~630-640nm )

    -LCW.EC : Broadpeak yellow ( or amber ) phosphor. (~ 590-610 nm ) ..
    ...Or blend of yellow & red phosphors ( i.e . ~570 & 620 nm )

    -LCW .PC : Yellow phosphor . ( ~560-580 nm )

    -LUW : Lime yellow(towards green ) phosphor.. ( ~550-570 nm )
    Thus max efficiencies,both radiometrically & photometrically ... )


    Some info here also :

    http://www.phosphortech.com/highpowerphosphors.html



    Some very interesting notes here :

    http://www.intematix.com/uploads/Phosphor blending app note 20130110-FINAL.pdf

    Like :

    ....Taking a typical warm white LED build (3000K, CRI~80), the recommendation is to use

    Intematix GAL545 + Intematix RR6436. Based solely on the CIE values of the green and red
    phosphors the ratio would be expected to be around 60/40 as noted above, however, because

    of the cross excitation (the red phosphor is excited by both the blue LED and the emission of the

    green phosphor) the real ratio is closer to 88/12. ......


    ....



    Changing the blue wavelength can have several effects. First, the required ratio of phosphors

    will change, typically, as the blue wavelength is shortened the amount of red phosphor required

    will decrease, so the GAL545/RR6436 ratio will shift from 88/12 when using a 455 nm blue
    pump, towards 89/11 when using a 450 nm blue pump. A second effect of varying the blue
    wavelength is that the CRI will change. The same blue pump shortening that changes the GAL/RR ratio will also lower the CRI;
    the exact m
    agnitude is a function of many factors, but for purposes of further illustrating the importance of proper phosphor selection, let&#8217;s say that the

    blue wavelength shift drops the CRI from ~81 to ~79. This shift would drop it below a common lighting threshold of CRI~80, and it would

    become necessary to shift to GAL540+RR6436 or GAL545+ER6535, in order to keep the CRI > 80.
    .....


    ( So .....The lower wl the blue "(photon) pump " _the blue chip_ the more efficient the pc white led-or at least the more efficient light conversion- ,
    due to less phosphor matter required ..-Less losses from conversion/absorption.... )






    And :

    Nitrides and oxynitrides:


    The nitrides, especially europium-doped (oxy)nitrides, represent a key development.
    The latesthigh quality, high purity red nitride phosphors
    can be used with the classic blue LED plus yellow phosphor systems to

    create better, warmer light with minimal reductions in efficacy.


    Intematix and Mitsubishi Chemical Corporation have both introduced new deep red phosphors that enable the production of warm white, high color rendering LEDs.

    (And, the two firms are currently engaged in a battle over the IP.)
    The Intematix phosphor reportedly enables the production of LEDs with 98 CRI and 2700 K CCT &#8211;indeed very high quality,
    warm white light. In addition, bythe end of 2012, LED lighting leader Philips says it will be selling a dimmable, warm white, 100-


    W equivalent bulb (1700 lumens and 23 W) with 20+-year lifetime under the name &#8220;EnduraLED&#8221;. The price of this bulb is estimated to be under $50.


    note 1.JPG note 2.JPG note 3.JPG

    (... OSRAM rules !)

    Read the whole report here (From August 2012 ) ...
    Very ..Refreshing ..... :

    http://www.nanomarkets.net/Downloads/LEDPhosphors.pdf


  18.  
    Fonzarelli

    Fonzarelli Active Member

    This company seems to have grip on their lights, but I do not see a SPD for any of their "supreme" spectra.

    Do you have a link? How is the customer supposed to know what they are buying?
  19.  
    Fonzarelli

    Fonzarelli Active Member

    What are these "adverse effects?"

    Need to know or it's just a theory.
  20.  
    Fonzarelli

    Fonzarelli Active Member

    Are you saying that 630nm is deep enough for Pf:Pfr conversion and Emerson effect? How do we even know that the Emerson effect applies to cannabis?

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