2013:The year of White Led Horticultural Lights

It's around 10% so fits with the standard. It would be interesting to see the effects of adding far red to the panel. I know he did some testing with far red and decided it was pointless, but for which strains. It would be nice if more testing was done. Supposedly the red:far red ratio is important for flowering plants and should be right around 1:1 deep red:far red.

That's why I put 660 in a different category than 630. If you were to put 1:1 ratio in his panel and consider 630 to be equal to 660 you would put in 29 far-red LEDs in with the other red LEDs!

That would be crazy. Wonder what would happen to the plants with that much far-red in there. LOL

PSUAGRO. said:

Yeah his description is off.....their are NO FR leds on the panel just two DR lumiled rebel 660nm, rest is 630nm cree xp-e

It is amazing to me that just 4 royal blue xt-e's can offset any stunting caused by the massive amounts of red on the panel.....it's a great design with those wide panel reflectors......

Click to expand...

See how powerful are those blue dies (generally speaking ,not just the xte ) ?

well as some of you know my flowering spectrum look like this:

8x620
16x630
32x640
32x660
8x700

8x455
16x 6500K

View attachment 2662073

so a lot of 640 and 660

so fare it seems to work just fine

Of course it doesn't prove anything lol, but I'm able to take spectral readings of combined light sources and get an accurate final SPD which is the point. You can't take the SPD of different LEDs(even white LEDs) and lay them over each other and get an accurate blended SPD. It doesn't work like that. Also, sometimes 2 different peaks will converge and make one broader range peak depending on how close together they are.

Equal wattage of blue 475nm and 440nm will have different intensities and you can't figure out an accurate SPD based on wattage alone so it's nice to see how they "blend" in reality.

By adding 660nm to the vegging strawberries they are able to prevent flowering. Makes sense.

How can you say that plants favor equal wattage from 600-700? Have you experimented this?

If you take a look at a blended SPD of say 10w of 600 and 10w of 660, the 600 peak will be much much higher due to the intensity differences.

Do do you still say you want equal wattage(power) between the wavelengths or based on what im telling you "equal intensity peaks between them?"

It takes around half the wattage of 630nm led light to equal the same 660nm in intensity. But does this mean you can get by with half the amount of 630nm LEDs and still have the same results?

Does 630nm convert Pfr the exact same way 660 does and with equal to or greater efficiency?

If so, then we shouldn't be using 660nm at all. Heck, we shouldnt need 730nm either. Plants will adapt right? Hmmmm. Don't buy it quite yet.

No my mistake ....

When I say " Wattage " I mean actual intensity of light (measured in Watts or umol/sec ,same thing ... ) ...
So yes I mean equal intensity peaks between them......

And yes ,I've seen it by personal experience ...
At least for different mj hybrids ,it goes like that ,more or less ....

Now ..
A detail about the spectrometer ...
Google it ,in case you do not trust me ....
Leds need special designed spectrometers ...
Others -ordinary ones will give false readings ...

Does 630nm convert Pfr the exact same way 660 does and with equal to or greater efficiency

yes .Equally ...It turns ~ 89% of Phytochrome ,from " Pr " state into "Pfr" state ....

f so, then we shouldn't be using 660nm at all. Heck, we shouldnt need 730nm either. Plants will adapt right? Hmmmm. Don't buy it quite yet.


LOL !

Now you're getting closer to my point .......Everything is there for a purpose ...
Violet -blue-green-yellow -etc ...
Every photon does a "job " ...


........
As for the pH being more important than spectrum .,you mentioned elsewhere ..
I won't argue on that and say that ' light spectrum will affect more the yield from pH unbalancing '....

What I can say ,is that are close related ...Along with plenty other things ....
Unbalanced light can cause unbalanced pH ,due to selective nutient high or low rate of assimilation ,
or non-assimilation at all , of certain minerals ..

For example ,from personal experience and only ,I've found that :

Deep reds increase Ca++ (<====maybe has something to do with mj's potency ,this "duo " ) ,
K + and Si ++ /++++ assimilaton ,into really high figures ...
And Ammonium ( NH4+ ) assimilation also increases ....
Causing-overall- acidic pH on substrate ..

Reds and Ambers increase Nitrate Assimilation (NO3- ) ,
as also assimilation of Sulfur,Boron & Iron somewhat increase ...
^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
(An "underlying "indication of 'moderate' but steady *protein production (=>nitrogen) ?
*(due to Nitrate form 'favoured' ,which is firstly stored inside vacuoles and then reduced to Ammonium to be used )

Higher needs in RNA molecules (=>sulphur) ,along with high enzyme activity (=>iron/boron ) ?
That smells "cell division ", if so ...

Meaning ,that max growth.....
(overall ,during whole duration of illumination or... whole daylight duration ...)

..... happens at that wls ?

RQE ,for sure is the highest at that amber-red region ....( ~ 560-620 nm )

-While NH4 is the fastest form of Nitrogen ,for the plant to use .....
Smells "Short termed High/Heavy Protein Production -Max rate of cell division ",
all around there at 640-660 nm ,at those wls...
But "plant" can 't stay long at max RPM .'Motor' will burn out ....

Analogy of Red wl ranges with higher animal's muscle system:
640-700 nm red region => White muscle fibers .Anaerobic Energy.
While the 600-640 nm reds are the red muscle fibers ....Aerobic .....


Plenty of indications on that one ....)


Blue,Cyan & Green wls favor Phosphor,Calcium,Copper and Magnesium assimilation....
( Smells "root formation " (=>Phosphor & Calcium ) & " chlorophyll biosynthesis (=>Copper /Magnesium ) .... )

That's the few of what I've noticed ,while feeding plants ,under different spectrums .....
Not much of a serious scientific methods or equip used ....
Just been noticing ,the various nutrient disorder "symptoms " ...

Can't be 100% inaccurate ....
Had same "indications" for each mineral ,plenty of times ....

PetFlora said:

As far as mmj adapting without 660> yes, it will adapt, BUT, it will be somewhat diminished. I doubt it could be able to synthesize what those spectrums 'feed' the plant, but it will learn to live without them

Click to expand...

Wisely put ....

It happens with almost all wavelengths ...
Most plants will adapt ,even to some "extreme" or "odd " light configurations ...

Our " goal " here ,is not to examine each and every case of possible configuration ....
Furthermore ,in order to do so ,probably you need "guns" like the Heliospectra L4A ....


Neither the goal is to set the plant under "extremes " and see /note what happens then.....

(Plenty -if not most- of commercial "led grow lights " fall into that case /category ...
Their light ,in plenty of cases ,is ...kinda ...."extreme" ...
Either in power/'density' or spectrum ....
Or worse ? ...At both .... )


The goal is rather complicated ....

........
An electrical energy efficient led fixture ,as user -friendly as possible ,
designed to work in humid ( & hot >25°C ) environments ,
for prolonged periods of timeand having such a spectrum(s) in analogy with it's output power ,
so to be able to grow plants from start and being able to set the "fundamental energetic & photomorphogenic basis" required ,
for a plant population ,in order to yield it's genetic "max potential " ......Or as close to that ,as possible .....



Along with the 'goal ' of "beating" the efficiencies of every other "conventional " light source ,used in horticulture ...
A 'secondary goal',somewhat .....
Mainly set by mj growers,all around the globe ....

As also ....
'Mainstream ' big greenhouses and horticulture industry ,demand some other "goals ",along with that ...
Slightly different ....
As the Sun still remains the primary light source in that field ...Production-wise ....
Leds just "aid " or " manipulate " ......
Seldom to Never ,are set to fully grow plants and produce crops ,by themselves ,as the only & solely light source .

And a lot of "confusion" and "misunderstandings " are born ,when this two ,totally different led applications ,'collide '...

( Leds used in Growth Chambers -aka tent/room/cabinet/box/etc - vs Leds used in big scale greenhouses )

They seem "identical " or even "same ' ....

Well,truth is ,that they are not ....

In plenty of ways ....

ive made a few led panels, none of which grew anything, not even a mm.

1st panel was 4xww, 4 deep red and 1x460. They were all 10w Lz4.

2nd panel was 5xNW, 4x660

3rd was 40w cool white, 4x660, 2x630, 2x460

none of them grew, flowered, but plants did remain green and healthy looking.

anyone have any idea why?

i supposed it was an over abundance of red light.

ledengin leds should work like any other led.

i cant imagine it was over powered because i use 1200w without any problem whatsoever.

whats different about a spectrometer thats "meant" for leds?

if it has to do with intensity, that can be controlled by adjusting the length of time the "shutter" is open and reading the light source.

my spectrometer is very accurate. when i compare the factory SPD of the PWN2 to what I get, my SPD is actually quite a bit more defined. I can post a few SPDs if ya want. Its interesting to see how much Philips "averages" out with their SPDs. Probably because there arw ao many bins to the led.

Fonzarelli said:

ive made a few led panels, none of which grew anything, not even a mm.

1st panel was 4xww, 4 deep red and 1x460. They were all 10w Lz4.

2nd panel was 5xNW, 4x660

3rd was 40w cool white, 4x660, 2x630, 2x460

none of them grew, flowered, but plants did remain green and healthy looking.

anyone have any idea why?

i supposed it was an over abundance of red light.

ledengin leds should work like any other led.

i cant imagine it was over powered because i use 1200w without any problem whatsoever.

Click to expand...

Well ,you do not give much details ,so my guess woulfd be more of a " hard " ...

1st panel was 4xww, 4 deep red and 1x460. They were all 10w Lz4. <===== Seems nice config .???? WTF ? Why didn't flower good ,this one ?

2nd panel was 5xNW, 4x660<====this one lacks yellow-amber -red wls ( 560-640 nm )

3rd was 40w cool white, 4x660, 2x630, 2x460<===Ok....Now ....Way too much power at blue region ....( CW +460 )

Fonzarelli said:

whats different about a spectrometer thats "meant" for leds?

if it has to do with intensity, that can be controlled by adjusting the length of time the "shutter" is open and reading the light source.

my spectrometer is very accurate. when i compare the factory SPD of the PWN2 to what I get, my SPD is actually quite a bit more defined. I can post a few SPDs if ya want. Its interesting to see how much Philips "averages" out with their SPDs. Probably because there arw ao many bins to the led.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure ....
I think I might 've seen an article about it in candlepowerforums ...
You'll have to search it a bit ....
But ,I strongly think that leds need special 'diffuse 'sensors or something like that ..
Not sure ...

stardustsailor said:

I strongly think that leds need special 'diffuse 'sensors or something like that ..
Not sure ...

Click to expand...

Are you trying to say that you are strongly unsure? Lmao

Had to bust your "male flowers" on that one, looks a bit funny.

Gonna have to disagree on the "special led sensor" only because light is light no matter how you look at it.

There is an attachment called a "cosine collector" that gathers light from a 180* angle made for weaker light sources. It attaches to the fiber optic cable that feeds into the device. The fiber optic cable only gathers light from a 5 or 10* angle so the cosine collector helps to gather more light basically.

It also may help to capture a "blended light source" that is made up of many wavelengths so you don't leave any parts out in a SPD.

The equipment I use is on PAR with Ocean Optics. They are both some good shit.

nice post, ive been in talks with valoya and cant decide if i should buy one, they are stupid expensive, anyone know anyone who has used one?