True HP Aero For 2011

[Trichy Bastard]

man i dont understand a mother fucking thing all i know is i got some spacing isues so i ran my pvc pipe so i can get n open my chamber for a biger yeild n set option hoses n cleaneng gadgets i dont say because of the patent i got i drawing to scale like a house but difrent i get 3 per light i think thats dam well but lighting spacing n nutrient all combinde its doing me great n of course the strain.

Hey Thump- to be honest, that pic was of a setup that would be different than how I'm trying to spray the roots with nutes in less than 1 second bursts. It is pretty nice for a low pressure setup though, isn't it... The first few posts in this thread outline how I'm trying to do my build, which is a tad different than what you're working with. I think the guys in one of the other low pressure threads might be better equipped to help you out... Hope you get it all sorted and have some freekn asum nuggs though!
Man- I can't keep up with all the new language packs people are downloading these days...

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Hey Atomizer, all this recent talk in Mike's thread has me wondering if I have chosen the correct number of nozzles. Could you tell me how to calculate such things- what is the theoretical target flowrate per ft2 or gallon to shoot for in design specs? I know you told me 8 nozzles looked about right for my setup, but I'm not sure if it was an estimate or you actually did the math. BTW- I ended up switching to the same stainless steel solenoids from STC that Treefarmer recommends and Mike also got- I figure the solenoid quality is pretty imperative here. The link: http://www.stcvalve.com/Process_Valves.htm

Yay- my 200th post as of today- RIU officially dubs me "Pothead" and my inbox now allows 50 messages- ...It's the little things that make the day better...

 

[Atomizer]

Hi Trichy
The ideal target is <1ml per 100L of chamber volume per misting, maintaining a droplet size range of 5-80 microns with full coverage. The challenging part is staying below the mist saturation point using the only variable you have to work with.. the timing. There`s a very good chance the timer wont go low enough so you may have to settle for something less than perfect and resort to altering to pause timing to compensate but its not ideal.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Hi Trichy
The ideal target is <1ml per 100L of chamber volume per misting, maintaining a droplet size range of 5-80 microns with full coverage. The challenging part is staying below the mist saturation point using the only variable you have to work with.. the timing. There`s a very good chance the timer wont go low enough so you may have to settle for something less than perfect and resort to altering to pause timing to compensate but its not ideal.

Thanks Atomizer... Is there something inherently bad about my chosen rootchamber that makes it "a very good chance the timer wont go low enough" (while also giving full coverage)? Or is this just the bane of all HPA designs? Reason I ask is because the only thing I haven't purchased yet is my chamber, and I could still do something differently if it would prove a wiser choice...

 

[Trichy Bastard]

My Biocontrols nozzles purportedly deliver 1.18 ml/second each (<0.04gal/sec)... 8 nozzles theoretically deliver 9.44 ml/sec. I think my chamber spec'd 70 gallons (but the dimensions seemed like they could have been a misprint- so not for sure)... 2.64 nozzles would deliver the apporopriate maximum mist in a single second. I will assume somewhere near a .2-.3 second burst could get me in the ballpark... Do you think this timing is achievable with the STC solenoids (<20ms reaction time) if each nozzle is only a few inches from it's dedicated solenoid with 1/4 jg tubing?

Edit: I calculated the internal chamber volume by subtracting 4 inches from all of the exterior dimensions and came up with 128 us gallons (484.53L) Now it's looking quite doable with .5 second bursts
The original exterior dimensions are 26Lx60Wx28H

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE TO ANYONE TRYING TO DO THIS RIGHT:

It would seem that hydraulic nozzles are under the limitations of their coverage area :to: flowrate. I now understand the benefits of the air atomizing nozzles better. I venture to guess it's impossible to get the right misting with a timer that doesn't go down below 1 second for any configuration in a purely hydraulic system. - If the solenoids are not 1 per nozzle and located just inches away- it quickly gets alot uglier (line pressure bleedoff)... Of course the nozzles must also be ultra low flow (near 1ml/sec).

 

[Atomizer]

Its the same for all designs, a balancing act between coverage and flow. Correct droplet size range and full coverage take top priority as nothing works without those. Once you have those sorted you have effectively set your flowrate in stone and you`re left with timing for adjustment. A 0.25sec/30 sec cycle gives the same daily throughput as a 1sec/2min cycle but produces a more consistant level of mist in the chamber. Maintaining constant 30-80micron mist in the chamber without exceeding the max saturation point is the goal.

I remember your chamber being around 127gal (480L), i make the nozzles 4.248lph, so with 8 you`ll need a misting pulse of 0.456sec (0.5sec) to put you at the saturation point. Thats the ideal pulse length for maximum saturation so having the option of less would be good. If you have to go higher to get full mist coverage (a main priority) you can use upto about 300% of the ideal figure (1.5sec in your case) and rebalance with a 300% increase in the pause duration. It will involve a compromise so its best avoided at the design stage if you can.

Hp aero is not all about blasting a chamber with high pressure mist..its about control

 

[thump easy]

well i will trichy bastard u.... hahahaha im just kidding look i will im have to open a dictionary i do love aroe thow its one of nasa's best invention that i can put my hands on... i realy want to show it so bad it make life easy than it already is with that machine some upgrades ill post it as soon as i wipe out the drawing i think many people will be please i have been experimenting with lights im working on a dual spectrum rite know at a friends house n on my place im gona change out the bulbs to c if the blue realy works tord the end... i have tried all the best bulbs on the market n capaired them side by side my notes will trip u out.... well i wish i could show u, just for the sake of knowledge but my vocabulary isnt as siffisticsated but my micanical side im very intuned with that.....

 

[thump easy]

but know one has mentioned anything about were to get those oval chambers SWEEET MAMA's does anyone know cuz my chamber clog with roots i veg for a month this is my friends room n its get cloged up too... so i need those chambers if not mabe i should invent something along those lines nasa is smart but anyone can tweek it just a lil for a better performing machine.... n i dont need the vocabulary for it.... but it shure seems intrasting to me what u guys are talking about.. im gona study those words see if i can comprehend it..

 

[Trichy Bastard]

but know one has mentioned anything about were to get those oval chambers SWEEET MAMA's does anyone know cuz my chamber clog with roots i veg for a month View attachment 1670368this is my friends room n its get cloged up too... so i need those chambers if not mabe i should invent something along those lines nasa is smart but anyone can tweek it just a lil for a better performing machine.... n i dont need the vocabulary for it.... but it shure seems intrasting to me what u guys are talking about.. im gona study those words see if i can comprehend it..

ha- all good Thump- being able to engineer and be creative will serve you better than your vocabulary in this game anyway... Unfortunately I am just as clueless on where to obtain the oval pipework, but if I ever come across it I will pm you... When I get all my pieces delivered in the next few weeks, I'll be sure to post plenty of pics- which may be alot more helpful than all the words that have been written- for everyone watching this thread. Good luck with your light experiments, and your grows...

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Its the same for all designs, a balancing act between coverage and flow. Correct droplet size range and full coverage take top priority as nothing works without those. Once you have those sorted you have effectively set your flowrate in stone and you`re left with timing for adjustment. A 0.25sec/30 sec cycle gives the same daily throughput as a 1sec/2min cycle but produces a more consistant level of mist in the chamber. Maintaining constant 30-80micron mist in the chamber without exceeding the max saturation point is the goal.

I remember your chamber being around 127gal (480L), i make the nozzles 4.248lph, so with 8 you`ll need a misting pulse of 0.456sec (0.5sec) to put you at the saturation point. Thats the ideal pulse length for maximum saturation so having the option of less would be good. If you have to go higher to get full mist coverage (a main priority) you can use upto about 300% of the ideal figure (1.5sec in your case) and rebalance with a 300% increase in the pause duration. It will involve a compromise so its best avoided at the design stage if you can.

Hp aero is not all about blasting a chamber with high pressure mist..its about control

Thanks- I feel like you just shared one of the most important, but most often overlooked/misunderstood concepts that is the key to achieving any of the benefits of HPA. I wonder how many people will read this whole thread, just to disregard this little pertinent piece of information... I've seen the same detail overlooked over and over again by so many others... Otherwise you're just running an LPA system with high pressure delivery- and the whole point of having the high pressure and the accumulator- is to be allowed the capability to follow these guidelines in order to get the results. This paragraph is to be my HPA mantra...

 

[rosecitypapa]

TB, I run a LPA setup thats controlled by an arduino and some boards I designed and have fabbed and its very cost effective for what it does. I have it running my lights, pumps/solenoids, fans, ph, ppm, temp(x4)/humidity,etc... I am also in the process of creating an HPA setup that will be controlled off the same controller. the little relay boards can run about 15amps(rated 20) and can be wired remote I replaced the switch in the o3 gen with one for example. You can go however far you want with it really, from just cycling a couple solenoids to running a multitable/room EF or DWC.

Its the same for all designs, a balancing act between coverage and flow. Correct droplet size range and full coverage take top priority as nothing works without those. Once you have those sorted you have effectively set your flowrate in stone and you`re left with timing for adjustment. A 0.25sec/30 sec cycle gives the same daily throughput as a 1sec/2min cycle but produces a more consistant level of mist in the chamber. Maintaining constant 30-80micron mist in the chamber without exceeding the max saturation point is the goal.

I remember your chamber being around 127gal (480L), i make the nozzles 4.248lph, so with 8 you`ll need a misting pulse of 0.456sec (0.5sec) to put you at the saturation point. Thats the ideal pulse length for maximum saturation so having the option of less would be good. If you have to go higher to get full mist coverage (a main priority) you can use upto about 300% of the ideal figure (1.5sec in your case) and rebalance with a 300% increase in the pause duration. It will involve a compromise so its best avoided at the design stage if you can.

Hp aero is not all about blasting a chamber with high pressure mist..its about control

Trichy, from what I understand, the arduino has programming control down to the millisecond. I picked up the little book Getting Started with Arduino expecting to begin a somewhat complicated and frustrating path but to my surprise, it looks surprising simple. The underlying philosophy of tinkering and building fast prototypes cheap and easy is making this a very popular platform. The Arduino's are about $30 preassembled.

Kdn would be able to better comment on whether that programming control would translate to solenoid operation.

I have a dream that I could someday have software that datalog's realtime environmental parameters, linked with a flexible embedded programmable microcontroller, and a HPA delivery system. LuciferX's HerbIQ software is a great start for the first, Kdn is working a write-up on his journey with the arduino for the second and threads like yours and Michael's quest for true aero is inspiring me to take on the third.


That's my geeky side, my natural side want's to move away from technology and return to the natural elements of Sun, rich soil, fresh air and clean water. My current ghetto greenhouse grow is my attempt at integrating the two.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

RCP- I know man, I'm just like you- I think HPA tends to attract like minded tinkerers... This can be as complicated or simple as you want to make it- in the end it's still just growing a fairly forgiving plant. E.T. the extra terrestrial was actually a botanist from Uranus (god knows how I remembered that). Perhaps one day we'll be able to grow dank plants by merely poking them with our glowing fingers... Think it's inspired me to create a followup thread to Cavadge's "Forget the fogger, I'm going HP aero" With: "Forget the green thumb- I'm going lumenescent index finger!"

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Man- I'm seriously silly sometimes... Anyway- I have another far fetched idea...
Anyone working on these hpa systems has probably had it cross their mind at some point to include a sort of senser based way to alter the mist timings- as opposed to statically repeating cyclical timing. I -especially- am interested in this because the ever changing outdoor conditions I'll have- including wind, sunlight, humidity, and the plant's particular ability to uptake water out of the chamber at various stages of growth and development which, I imagine, will all cause varying root water uptake conditions on a normal basis. If the proper level of mist can be constantly automatically adjusted to compensate for all of these things, it should maximise root efficiency and root hair growth, while minimising my need to monitor and manually adjust the cycle timings. The natural inclination is to think about using an air-humidity sensor. Atomizer has already explained the reasons it wont work- mainly because the rh of the chamber doesn't have much to do with the wetness of the roots. So I came across this on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130488206095&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1123 . Basically- it's just a soil wetness sensor meant to be probed in soil that measures conductivity based on moisture, which controls an onboard relay switch. The desired amount of wetness to trigger the switch (that I'd wire the timer to) is on an adjustable rheostat. What I am thinking is that I might be able to brigde the probes with some type of porous material like perhaps a strand of hair or kite string in an area of the chamber that constantly recieves the mean amount of misting and would dry out at the same pace as the bulk of the roots in the chamber. I'm sure it would entail alot of trial and error in finding the proper material to span between the sensors, but other than that I can't see why it might not work. I'm wondering if anyone has any input or thoughts on this? I went ahead and bought the unit since even if it won't work- 15 bucks is cheap for the hours of entertainment it will provide me...

 

[Atomizer]

What I am thinking is that I might be able to brigde the probes with some type of porous material like perhaps a strand of hair or kite string in an area of the chamber that constantly recieves the mean amount of misting and would dry out at the same pace as the bulk of the roots in the chamber. I'm sure it would entail alot of trial and error in finding the proper material to span between the sensors, but other than that I can't see why it might not work. I'm wondering if anyone has any input or thoughts on this? I went ahead and bought the unit since even if it won't work- 15 bucks is cheap for the hours of entertainment it will provide me...

The only material that would work is a living breathing root, anything else will rely on evaporation to dry out. Sun, wind, rh and temp work on the leaves which provokes a response in the root zone, an inert root wouldn`t be aware of any change.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Originally posted by Atomizer: The only material that would work is a living breathing root, anything else will rely on evaporation to dry out. Sun, wind, rh and temp work on the leaves which provokes a response in the root zone, an inert root wouldn`t be aware of any change.

I wish I could argue another angle with you... But you're right... I forgot the plant's uptake also has to do with it... Maybe I could connect the sensor to the roots? They'd probably never dry out enough to make it work though... I'm back on earth now, I'm just gonna focus on reproducing the proven aspects of this design first...

 

[Atomizer]

Hi Trichy
Take a look at us patent #4332105. It attempts the same thing but fails to take light into account.. The patent is almost 30 years old, if it was viable they would have it perfected and on the market in some form by now. Its a nice idea to automate the mist delivery to deliver perfect results but its much easier said than done.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Hi Trichy
Take a look at us patent #4332105. It attempts the same thing but fails to take light into account.. The patent is almost 30 years old, if it was viable they would have it perfected and on the market in some form by now. Its a nice idea to automate the mist delivery to deliver perfect results but its much easier said than done.

I see... Well at least I have some new reading material to get some new ideas from... You never cease to amaze me with your resourcefullness and your intelligent logic and engineering skills as well... Thanks for being available to share your attributes with us... -Really, in my experience you really stand out in the crowd sir... You have my utmost respect...

 

[Kdn]

RCP, You could in theory time down to the micosecond. The average 328 ATmega instruction takes 1 to 2 clocks to complete, at 2 clocks per instruction(@16mhz) we are in the range of 8 instructions per uS. All you would have to do is fit the timer cycle into 8 instructions for 1uS resolution. Of course none of this really matters since we are interfacing electromechanical equipment with much higher delay characteristics, so we find our highest delay part and that is our "switching" time. In my case that will either be the relay or the solenoid(@20ms), I have both SSR(@2ms) and MR(@40ms) so I will see how they both perform. I really dont see why you can achieve what you want, I have most of it running right now just need to finish off the HPA side now.

 

[Atomizer]

Everything seems straightforward and doable when you`re on the outside looking in, most of my initial theories of what i thought should work have since been consigned to file 13 after testing

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Hey Atomizer- while I've buttered you up- can I ask another question? I was going through Cav's thread again (which I can see from a whole new angle now with all of my new understanding of things). I see that a common issue is the pressure switch tripping when the pressure momentarily drops due to the solenoid engaging- I understand the need for the PS to be within 2 feet (I'll try for a few inches myself) of the accumulator, now I can't see any reason why the PS couldn't be located between the pump and the acc. tank, as opposed to just after the acc. tank. This way the diaphram in the accumulator will act as a water hammer arrestor, etc. Anyway- any flaws to this approach?