Four thousand to Afghanistan

Should the US have troops in Afghanistan?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • No

    Votes: 18 94.7%

  • Total voters
    19

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Actually, I spent years marching against the Viet Nam war. Years. I don't appreciate the innuendo on that point.

That was an unjust war against a country because Johnson and those in power at the time didn't like their form of government over there.

And, they never attacked us.

The terrorists did attack, slaughtered as many people at the WTC as Pearl Harbor and it was and continues to be a justified military target to chase down other terrorists who are trying to do similar attacks.

And ask the women of the region how they feel about the Taliban.

I don't advocate boots on the ground, but have zero problems with chasing terrorist leaders with drones.
Murder them with troops, murder them with stones. In terms of ultimate blowback, how much difference does it make?

We're still killing lots of people on the other side of the planet who are no threat to us.

And it's not our job to seek Justice for the Taliban wives. 'world cop' is a completely illegitimate excuse for starting undeclared wars.

Pay attention. We never learned our lessons from Vietnam because if we did, the Military Industrial Complex would not be running our fucking government right now.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
9-11 would have happened whether Bush or Gore was prez.

We were simply not ready to accept people would commandeer jets and crash them into buildings until it happened.

GW botched the aftermath, not much to do about that now.

Terrorist orginazations continue to thrive and are a threat in the region.

It would be best not to ignore them and be blindsided again.

Learn from history, as opposed to repeating it. Welcome to the 21st century.
It is what it is. It's not going to change. Terrorism is here to stay.
9/11 would not have happened without our ongoing undeclared wars, aka covert ops.

It was blowback, pure and simple. And there will be more of it if we don't stop being belligerents and bullies over any excuse or even none at all.

I'm sick of my country committing senseless murder around the world in my name.

I'm sorry you're still looking for excuses to justify it.
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
Bullshit Strawman argument.

Followed by a 'you don't REALLY know' excuse.

I work hard to keep up on world events and history.
Me too.

And neither of us has security clearance.

So we get our info from the media. The media you find suspect, as you have stated repeatedly.

So, what makes you certain you know all the facts here? Not from some website you frequent, they don't really know either.

It's ALL conjecture and opinion.

Unless you have clearance, my guess is as good as yours.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Me too.

And neither of us has security clearance.

So we get our info from the media. The media you find suspect, as you have stated repeatedly.

So, what makes you certain you know all the facts here? Not from some website you frequent, they don't really know either.

It's ALL conjecture and opinion.

Unless you have clearance, my guess is as good as yours.
Still bullshit.

We need to stop doing around the world killing people.

Your blind fealty to the MIC is palpable. Unless they can make a strong case for ongoing aggression, your trust in them is flawed.

Follow the money.
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
Still bullshit.

We need to stop doing around the world killing people.

Your blind fealty to the MIC is palpable. Unless they can make a strong case for ongoing aggression, your trust in them is flawed.

Follow the money.
Yeah, there's bull shit here. Lots of it.

I just don't buy into all this conspiratorial stuff at fucking all. There's a certain amount of randomness to the world that everybody either misses or refuses to accept.

I'm old enough to remember a country where people trusted the government and the media, and when Walter Cronkite was the most trusted guy in America. And I remember exactly when that trust of government started to go south in the '60's as well.

Now, it's a conspiracy to some if I eat a bowl of cereal.

Everybody isn't out to get you or steal your money or whatthefuckever.

This biggest change in this country is perception. It's still the same place with some improved social acceptance of certain protected minorties as compared to my youth. We still have lethal enemies. We still have problems. We still have recessions. We still need jobs.

Of course you see a much darker picture.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Yeah, there's bull shit here. Lots of it.

I just don't buy into all this conspiratorial stuff at fucking all. There's a certain amount of randomness to the world that everybody either misses or refuses to accept.

I'm old enough to remember a country where people trusted the government and the media, and when Walter Cronkite was the most trusted guy in America. And I remember exactly when that trust of government started to go south in the '60's as well.

Now, it's a conspiracy to some if I eat a bowl of cereal.

Everybody isn't out to get you or steal your money or whatthefuckever.

This biggest change in this country is perception. It's still the same place with some improved social acceptance of certain protected minorties as compared to my youth. We still have lethal enemies. We still have problems. We still have recessions. We still need jobs.

Of course you see a much darker picture.
Even then the CIA and others were working to destabilize foreign governments and discredit influential intellectuals in other countries.

Now it sounds like you're complaining that those chickens are coming home to roost.

I'm saying we need to stop with the belligerent foreign policy. Serious question; What gives us the right? We sure as fuck don't have moral authority or international law to stand on.

http://thephilosophicalsalon.com/the-cia-reads-french-theory-on-the-intellectual-labor-of-dismantling-the-cultural-left/
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Yeah, there's bull shit here. Lots of it.

I just don't buy into all this conspiratorial stuff at fucking all. There's a certain amount of randomness to the world that everybody either misses or refuses to accept.

I'm old enough to remember a country where people trusted the government and the media, and when Walter Cronkite was the most trusted guy in America. And I remember exactly when that trust of government started to go south in the '60's as well.

Now, it's a conspiracy to some if I eat a bowl of cereal.

Everybody isn't out to get you or steal your money or whatthefuckever.

This biggest change in this country is perception. It's still the same place with some improved social acceptance of certain protected minorties as compared to my youth. We still have lethal enemies. We still have problems. We still have recessions. We still need jobs.

Of course you see a much darker picture.





Operation Northwoods
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Operation Northwoods was a proposed false flag operation against the Cuban government, that originated within the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) of the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other U.S. government operatives to commit acts of terrorism against American civilians and military targets, blaming it on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The plans detailed in the document included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.[2] The proposals were rejected by the Kennedy administration.[3]

At the time of the proposal, communists led by Fidel Castro had recently taken power in Cuba. The operation proposed creating public support for a war against Cuba by blaming it for terrorist acts that would actually be perpetrated by the U.S. Government.[4] To this end, Operation Northwoods proposals recommended hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:

The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The operation recommended developing a "Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".

The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S. government's anti-communist Cuban Project, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted; it was authorized by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but then rejected by President John F. Kennedy. According to currently released documentation, none of the operations became active under the auspices of the Operation Northwoods proposals
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
9-11 would have happened whether Bush or Gore was prez.

We were simply not ready to accept people would commandeer jets and crash them into buildings until it happened.

GW botched the aftermath, not much to do about that now.

Terrorist orginazations continue to thrive and are a threat in the region.

It would be best not to ignore them and be blindsided again.

Learn from history, as opposed to repeating it. Welcome to the 21st century.
It is what it is. It's not going to change. Terrorism is here to stay.
GW and staff had shut out Tenet, CIA director and he documented his reasons for believing shrub dropped the ball. I find his story compelling and believable. Shrub didn't have the imagination or capacity for the situation. I can agree with you about that.

Don't tell me you thought the invasion of Iraq in 2002 was justified.

"it is what it is" means what?

Learn from history. War, conflict and the number of radicalized muslims in the world is larger today than in 9-11. This, in spite of drone strikes and a decade and a half of US soldiers dying for their country. We were warned that going into Iraq by our allies would only create more problems, yet we invaded and now we stay. And now Trump is expanding our presence. More war makes more enemies. This is what our drone strikes is buying us.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
GW and staff had shut out Tenet, CIA director and he documented his reasons for believing shrub dropped the ball. I find his story compelling and believable. Shrub didn't have the imagination or capacity for the situation. I can agree with you about that.

Don't tell me you thought the invasion of Iraq in 2002 was justified.

"it is what it is" means what?

Learn from history. War, conflict and the number of radicalized muslims in the world is larger today than in 9-11. This, in spite of drone strikes and a decade and a half of US soldiers dying for their country. We were warned that going into Iraq by our allies would only create more problems, yet we invaded and now we stay. And now Trump is expanding our presence. More war makes more enemies. This is what our drone strikes is buying us.


upload_2017-6-18_21-44-59.png






upload_2017-6-18_21-43-39.png
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
Even then the CIA and others were working to destabilize foreign governments and discredit influential intellectuals in other countries.

Now it sounds like you're complaining that those chickens are coming home to roost.

I'm saying we need to stop with the belligerent foreign policy. Serious question; What gives us the right? We sure as fuck don't have moral authority or international law to stand on.

http://thephilosophicalsalon.com/the-cia-reads-french-theory-on-the-intellectual-labor-of-dismantling-the-cultural-left/
The CIA has been involved in dirty business forever.

Is that something new?

The government was obsessed with communism since the end of WWII through the fall of the Soviet Union.

The cold war cost more than all the hot wars put together. We made some mistakes.

Failing to stay vigilant against terrorism would be another mistake. This isn't theory, we know they will attack if they can.

I used to think there could be peace at some point. Then came 9/11.

Maybe in a couple hundred years.
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
GW and staff had shut out Tenet, CIA director and he documented his reasons for believing shrub dropped the ball. I find his story compelling and believable. Shrub didn't have the imagination or capacity for the situation. I can agree with you about that.

Don't tell me you thought the invasion of Iraq in 2002 was justified.

"it is what it is" means what?

Learn from history. War, conflict and the number of radicalized muslims in the world is larger today than in 9-11. This, in spite of drone strikes and a decade and a half of US soldiers dying for their country. We were warned that going into Iraq by our allies would only create more problems, yet we invaded and now we stay. And now Trump is expanding our presence. More war makes more enemies. This is what our drone strikes is buying us.
No, I didn't approve of the 2nd Iraq invasion and toppling the government for no reason which caused destabilization and MORE terrorism.

It is what it is means we're stuck with terrorism, like it or not.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
No, I didn't approve of the 2nd Iraq invasion and toppling the government for no reason which caused destabilization and MORE terrorism.

It is what it is means we're stuck with terrorism, like it or not.
Why do you assume terrorism springs from nowhere? Why is it so hard for you to admit the possibility that maybe we've done something TO THEM to make them hate us so much?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
The CIA has been involved in dirty business forever.

Is that something new?

The government was obsessed with communism since the end of WWII through the fall of the Soviet Union.

The cold war cost more than all the hot wars put together. We made some mistakes.

Failing to stay vigilant against terrorism would be another mistake. This isn't theory, we know they will attack if they can.

I used to think there could be peace at some point. Then came 9/11.

Maybe in a couple hundred years.
If the only tool we use is the Pentagon, then everything looks like a military problem. That's our responsibility to fix, not the rest of the world's.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Why do you assume terrorism springs from nowhere? Why is it so hard for you to admit the possibility that maybe we've done something TO THEM to make them hate us so much?

That was a decent post, except for your misuse of the word "we".
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
Why do you assume terrorism springs from nowhere? Why is it so hard for you to admit the possibility that maybe we've done something TO THEM to make them hate us so much?
Where exactly did I say terrorism springs from nowhere?

If you have a grevience with someone, do you go fly a plane through their house?

Because you're trying making it sound justifiable or something. It's not.
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
If the only tool we use is the Pentagon, then everything looks like a military problem.
Terrorism is a military problem.

Did you have a problem with the midnight raid into Pakistan to get bin Laden?

Foreign territory and all. They had to know he was there. We did. Did they mention it?
Are foreign governments 'all in' against terrorist organizations?

You've implied they aren't a threat. Sounds naive.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Where exactly did I say terrorism springs from nowhere?

If you have a grevience with someone, do you go fly a plane through their house?

Because you're trying making it sound justifiable or something. It's not.
I might go to extreme measures if someone or their country bombed my village and killed my family. Or attacked them with drones. Or overthrew my democratically elected government in favor of a brutally repressive one.

Or ALL of those things, over the course of years and decades.
 
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