you guys see strain hunters at the tude?

sonar

Well-Known Member
What I don't understand is who are buying these seeds? And who's buying so many that they are this successful? Any cannabis forum I have ever visited, all I heard was people talking crap on these guys but yet they seem to be a thriving business. They are like the Nickleback of the seeds world. All I hear is people making fun talking crap on that shitty band, yet they sell millions of albums and sell out shows.
 

coolkid.02

Well-Known Member
So "strain hunters" released a bunch of hybrids like they always do? Yawn...

No landrace genetics (not that I would have purchased them from GHS)...Ace and Snowhigh have better anyhow.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
arjan is a drug dealer nothing more, it would be nice for us all to stick together and put him out of business and stop noobs growing hay.

wtf is this i keep hearing about all seeds comming from spain...explaine please
In Spain not only are cannabis ceeds legal, but its legal to cultivate and consume cannabis on private land, so long as the drug itself isn't brought off the land or sold.

So in effect, its legal to produce ceeds in Spain, and as a result, not only does Spain have its own growing breeding scene, but many of the American and even Dutch breeders actually have their ceeds mass-produced there by third party growers who contract out the ceed production.

In fact, I've heard that many of the smaller breeders "generic" lines (eg Northern lights, Skunk, White Widow, etc) are just mass-production outdoor grown seeds.

GHS is probably one of these. I've heard that Sensi is another. I can rattle off a few more names (including American breeders), but the point is made.
 

Lemon king

Well-Known Member
hmmmmm well you cant drop a bombshell like that without telling us whose not doing the mass produced shit, makes sense i heard spanabis is were everyone goes now i know why lol,

also i assume controlling male or hermi pollen outdoors must be near on impossible so what are we really getting!!
 

haulinbass

Well-Known Member
Dinafem is one, most is spanish independant breeders, and niagra seedbank in canada produces haze auto for them. In fact they sell fem version of mr nice strains as well. Id be willing to bet 90% of the seeds sold in the world no matter whos package they come in come from 4-5 places. The rest being the smaller breeders who actually do the crosses and tests themselves or between close friends
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
They actually do this all over. I've heard of companies going to third world countries where law enforcement is lax and cheaply producing seeds there too (while no doubt polluting the gene pool).

As far as GHS goes - they don't produce crap exclusively. They just aren't well liked. SLH and LS are both killer lines (related of course).
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
hmmmmm well you cant drop a bombshell like that without telling us whose not doing the mass produced shit, makes sense i heard spanabis is were everyone goes now i know why lol,

also i assume controlling male or hermi pollen outdoors must be near on impossible so what are we really getting!!
So far as I know, the commercial ceed-makers don't make their product using old-school outdoor open pollenization. As you say, that could lead to cross pollenization and potentially mixed genetics beans.

The way this is done is by growing out clones in a GREENHOUSE, then controlling pollenization by using collected pollen from a male plant. Basically the same as you would do indoors, just in a greenhouse and on a larger scale.

On the first thing, sorry to burst your bubble, but it really shouldn't come as news to anyone really familiar with the ceed industry that most of the bigger breeders subcontract actual production to Spanish third parties.

Just because beans are made by third parties doesn't necessarily mean they are good OR bad, it depends on what genetics they are starting with, and how good a job they do.

In terms of who is doing what where, there are probably over 100 commercial breeders out there now, and for obvious reasons, its a trade secret who is making which beans where. Even if I were directly involved in this business (which I am not), I couldn't possibly tell you about every other company. Yes, I've heard names, and from fairly credible sources, but even so, this is basically just hearsay, and I'd rather not say something wrong.

Again, what I will say is that I've heard (and believe) that a few of the bigger "name" American breeders have the commercial beans actually produced in Spain, and so do many of the larger "name" European breeders. If its a company that's been around for 10+ years, its probably a safe bet that some or all of their production is contracted out at this point.

If you want names I'm 100% sure of, Dinafem is a Spanish company, and they make all their beans on their own facility in Spain. [EDiT; OK, guess not, see below]. Sickmeds is relatively new, and a fairly small operation at this point, but its based in Spain, and I know as a fact that all their beans are made on their own private facility there. I'm pretty sure that most (if not all) of the Short Stuff autoflower beans are made in Spain. Resin seeds (of Cannatonic fame) is based in Spain, and I think all their beans are made there.
 

haulinbass

Well-Known Member
I can tell you 100% DINAFEM has gone on record saying they dont do their own production in an interview in skunk magazine, even as far to say haze auto is bred by niagra seedbank. Shanti from mr nice has said they allow dinafem to sell the fem seeds of mr.nice that their contractors grow for them. So i have a hard time believing in the last year they have gone 100%independant. But you are 100% right on most seeds being produced in spain.
 

EZmooover

Active Member
I can rattle off a few more names (including American breeders), but the point is made.
I disagree. The "point" has no real, esoteric value unless you start publishing all names and culpable, evidential facts. Let's get to the meat of the matter, otherwise it's just more internet conjecture.

I respect your intimate knowledge of the business but challenge your veracity to name names... full disclosure. This is where this type of dialogue becomes truly valuable. :peace:
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
I disagree. The "point" has no real, esoteric value unless you start publishing all names and culpable, evidential facts. Let's get to the meat of the matter, otherwise it's just more internet conjecture.

I respect your intimate knowledge of the business but challenge your veracity to name names... full disclosure. This is where this type of dialogue becomes truly valuable. :peace:
Bluntly, I don't really care if you believe me or not. I've already explained why I'm not naming names, and its exactly for the reason you describe. Since I CAN'T prove anything here, EVERYTHING I would say on this topic amounts to hearsay. The internet is already full of BS rumors, I'm not adding more just for the sake of "stirring the pot", so to speak. Again, I don't really see how it makes any difference where any given breeder actually has the ceeds made; what matters is their ultimate quality.

I should also point out that there is a difference between breeding and ceed production. I believe that many of the breeders do their actual breeding (ie strain development) in one place, but once they have the lines set, have the actual ceeds for sale manufactured somewhere else.

As to "conjecture" vs evidence, its out there. For example:

Dave from Positronics went on record at Spannabis 2013 claiming that his company makes beans for a number of other breeders (at 0:52 in):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5h_6Dbe7dw Of course he didn't say which ones, but is he lying about this?

You've probably never heard of the company, because they have very limited distribution, but Speed Se-eds is based in Spain, and claims publically that they're offering up generic versions of "big name" seeds made by a major breeder.
http://www.piensaenverde.eu/semillas-marihuana-speed-seeds.html

Speed Seeds es un banco de semillas de cannabis español que ofrece variedades autoflorecientes de gran calidad, las semillas las produce un banco reconocido a nivel mundial con más de 20 años de experiencia en el mundo canábico. No puedo decir el banco ya que prefieren mantener el anonimato, y tiene sentido si nos fijamos en sus precios rompedores (30 semillas 75 eur o 60 semillas 135 eur). Esto responde a una marca blanca de sus semillas de marihuana autoflorecientes más reconocidas, las semillas son de la misma calidad, solo es una estrategia comercial. Lo importante es que nos beneficiamos los cultivadores y podemos disfrutar a precios muy razonables, variedades como Auto AK 47, planta alta de gran cogollo central con aroma a frutas dulces, o la Blueberry, caracterizada por su color morado y su aroma a fruta tropical y Northen Light Auto, una indica con efecto relajante, recomendada para uso medicinal.

Here's my slightly polished auto-translation, for those who don't speak Spanish:

Speed ​​Seeds is a Spanish cannabis seed bank offering top quality autoflowering varieties; the seeds are produced by a globally recognized bank with over 20 years experience in the cannabis world. I can not name the bank as they prefer to remain anonymous, and it makes sense if you look at [our] ground-breaking prices (30 seeds 60 seeds 75 eur or 135 eur). We provide a white label brand for their most well known autoflowering marijuana seeds. The seeds [we offer] are of the same quality, it's just a marketing strategy. The important thing is that we benefit growers and we can offer at very reasonable prices, varieties such as Auto AK 47, a plant with a large central cola with a sweet fruity aroma, or Blueberry, distinguished by its purplish hue and the aroma of tropical fruit, and Northen Light Auto, an indica with relaxing effect, recommended for medicinal use
.
In short, this company claims to be wholesaling beans from a major player, and if you know anything about the business, there really aren't many breeders from 20 years ago that are still around today. Is this all just marketing BS?

Remember I said that some of the American cos are making beans in Spain? As one example, if you're buying Rare Dankness beans from any seedbank, you're buying beans made in Spain. Again, not exactly a "trade secret" since its in black and white on the RD website:
http://www.raredankness.com/AboutUs.htm

RD GENETICS/Rare Dankness is the global company based in Europe. The seeds by RD Genetics/Rare Dankness are produced in legal gardens in SPAIN. That is where the international seed banks acquire their seeds, through the UK distributor. RD Genetics/Rare Dankness DOES NOT SHIP SEEDS ANYWHERE. DO NOT ASK. RD will not reply to any emails that ask about shipping or germination issues.
IIRC, Subcool said on this site that his actual beans are made in Europe. Unfortunately, I don't have a link to his words here, but since he has a presence on this site, you could probably ask him directly where they're made. Don't think he said "Spain", though that's what I inferred (perhaps incorrectly).

Other Spanish-based breeders? Sweet Se-eds, Kannabia, Eva, Delicious, Pyramid seeds, and Cannabiogen, are all based in Spain. I already mentioned Sickmeds and Resin above.

On Dinafem, above, I'm a bit surprised to learn that they don't make all their ceeds in house, since I know they have a big facility in Spain and at least used to make their ceeds there. But apparently, its true, at least some (if not all) of their commercial production is done in Ontario now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XymPEOO8KvA
 

bluntmassa1

Well-Known Member
They actually do this all over. I've heard of companies going to third world countries where law enforcement is lax and cheaply producing seeds there too (while no doubt polluting the gene pool).

As far as GHS goes - they don't produce crap exclusively. They just aren't well liked. SLH and LS are both killer lines (related of course).
I even heard MNS is doing it now I know there in Spain now but really even if he does still do his own breeding he's hiring help so whats the difference if you hire help or contract work out as long as you have the mother and father and they are grown good the seed should be just as good.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
Just a question but if your not actually breeding what is the point of a landrace, just think its odd all of a sudden landraces are perfect or at least people make it out to be that way. Yes landraces can have very unique features but they are also very problematic wich is why hybrids were created in the first place. That being said Greenhouse is more than likely just looking to replace their shit mothers and fathers(haha like they use males) they dont have repeat customers so they can keep their famous names and freshen shit up.
I think you have this exactly right. If exotic landraces were so awesome, we'd all be growing them, instead of hybrids. The fact is not only are they NOT "awesome", in most respects, they're exactly the opposite, namely difficult to grow and unrewarding.

I'm not even sure there is really a "landrace craze" but to the extent there are noises like this, in my opinion its mostly hype and misunderstanding, much of which is deliberately promulgated by the ones selling se-eds. Some of this may be false nostalgia for a time when things were supposedly "pure". Everyone has heard about the awesome "grass" of the disco era, but I think that's a case of things looking better from far away. The reality is that the vast majority of 1970s era outdoor grown landrace weed was leafy seedy schwagg that makes today's brown Mexican brick look great in comparision. There was great landrace stuff out there in the 1970s, but it was super expensive, and most markets and smokers never saw ANY of it.

So along those lines, yes, there are some "great" landraces that are famous and absolutely excellent: Santa Marta/Columbian Gold, Punta Roja/Panama Red, Afghani Mazari Shariff, Oaxacan, Jamaican Lamb's Bread, some African ones like Malawi, Durban Poison, Swazi, etc. All of these are rightfully internationally known based on their quality. But again, all of these are already available commercially, in many cases from more than one source. If you want to grow these, you don't need Arjan and his glory-seekers to take them into a marketplace where they already exist.

As to the more obscure landraces, the fact is, that most of these don't exist in the commercial marketplace not because nobody has heard of them, or because they're so hard to get, but rather because they're simply unexceptional. A lot of these really aren't much better than "schwagg". Love him or hate him, but breeder Reeferman (who is known for his landrace work), said he spent several years tooling around Central and South America looking for unexploited landraces, and couldn't find ANYTHING down there new that he thought was worthwhile.

While I'd say its *possible* that there are still a few "hotspots" left on the planet that have decent unexploited landraces, it highly probable than none of them are any better than what's already out there. How are you going to beat something like Mazari Shariff which was selectively bred for 1000 years into the most renowned hash-strain on the globe? Or Santa Marta which was derived from a famous 300+ year old line brought to Columbia by Simon Bolivar? The chance of Arjan and crew wandering out of some god-forsaken hellhole with a spectacular new landrace better than these? Zero point zero.

To answer the question, why would you want to grow these if you're not breeding? Well *IF* you happen to be located in a geographic location similar to their natural habitats, then it could make a lot of sense to grow these outdoors. So, for example, if you were growing in Central America or the Columbian Mountains it would make sense to grow Santa Marta or Punta Rojo, two excellent lines highly adapted to those conditions.

Some people do grow these out of pure nostalgia or curiosity, just to recreate something they tried (or wanted to try) many years ago. (I don't think it qualifies as a pure "landrace" but this was part of the motivation behind me growing out some Mexican commercial "schwagg" sativa; you can see the results in my grow report below). Some people just grow these for the pure technical challenge, just to say they did (why climb a mountain?), or just to have something unique.

For anyone else? Not only are most landraces NOT a good choice, for most modern first world growers they're a BAD choice.

Sure the equatorial sativas may give you great taste and effect, but these types of plants are totally unsuited to indoor cultivation. They typically stretch like crazy during flowering, making it hard to control height and to light them evenly indoors from fixed light sources. Some of them will continue to grow throughout the entire flowering period. These typically take a long time to finish flowering (in many cases over 16 weeks), far longer than modern hybrids. In some cases the flowers are leafy and offer relatively low yield, and almost all of these landraces put out lots of hermies. Yes its possible to grow these indoors, and plenty of people do it, but the sativa-based hybrids are a lot easier to manage and will usually give better results for almost everyone. Outdoors, these sorts of sativas simply won't finish flowering in most of the USA or Europe before the winter frost comes in and destroys the plant. Again, yes, if you are in a really Southern location (eg S.Florida) you might pull some of these off outdoors, or if you can shelter them in a greenhouse, but most growers don't have these luxuries.

On the indica-landrace side, yes, you can grow those indoors if you like, and plenty of people do. These also can have their disadvantages, for example, most of these plants like dry weather and are prone to rot in humid indoor grows, or in humid North American falls. Many of them also aren't particular tasty. But some of these are good and for example Hindu Kush and Afghan #1 are relatively well known and popular landrace indicas that people like. But again, the best of these subcontinental lines have been around in commercial se-ed for for decades already.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
I even heard MNS is doing it now I know there in Spain now but really even if he does still do his own breeding he's hiring help so whats the difference if you hire help or contract work out as long as you have the mother and father and they are grown good the seed should be just as good.
That's one of the names I've heard as well, and I agree with you 100% here.

MNS is a big company; they've got two dozen lines out there and sell thousands of beans a week. Does anyone really expect Shantibaba to still be personally hand pollinating every plant to make beans for commercial sale nowadays?

*Someone* has got to make the beans for his company. If he's not going to do it with his own two hands, he's got to hire others to do it for him, and there is no getting around that.

Sure he could do that in-house, but if he can subcontract out the production to a professional group that knows what they are doing and puts out high quality at a good price, that's a "win" for him, for them, and for his customers.

As long as the actual ceeds are good (and I don't think I've ever heard complaints about MNS bean quality), what difference does it make?
 
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